New concept for questing knights

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  • New concept for questing knights

    So here’s a thought on adding quests for questing knights. At the beginning of the when choosing spells also roll for a quest. If the finishing the quest is impossible, for example, no targets exist in the opponent’s army, reroll for a different quest. The following are examples I came up with on the spot. I feel the bonuses, disadvantages, and rewards should be very significant to encourage the player to use play towards them, as well as discouraging players from simply ignoring them

    Quest: Protect the weak
    : flank or rear charge an enemy in base contact with peasants

    bonus (rules to achieve that goal): gain light troops until goal is fulfilled. Reroll charges. Hatred against that target. Counts ranks as normal when in base contact with target

    Disadvantages: towards any other enemy unit, minimized charge roll, -1 leadership when in combat, def skill reduced to 1, agility reduced to 0

    Reward: Unit gains +1 discipline and Oath of Fealty for the rest of the game. Disadvantages and bonuses are removed





    Quest: Monster Slayers - Slay a model that causes fear

    Bonus: towards target, +1 to hit, +2 to charge roll, gains fearless

    Disadvantage: towards any other enemy, knights must reroll successful to hit rolls, -1 leadership in combat, cannot declare flee reaction

    Reward: Unit Gains +1 to wound and +1 resilience for the rest of the game. Disadvantages and bonuses are removed




    Quest: Decapitate the Snake - be involved combat where an enemy General is killed or captured

    Bonus - Enemy Characters and champions cannot declare duels, or volunteer which character or champion accepts a duel, when in a combat involving this unit. KoE characters can choose which model to duel.

    Disadvantages - against any unit without characters, enemy models gain distracting vs this unit

    Reward: enemies in base contact with this unit reduce their discipline by 1 and do not benefit from Rally Around the Flag. Disadvantages and bonuses are removed
  • Ivar K wrote:

    I think that impetuous would fit better to the questing knights than aspirants. Eager to fulfill the oath and so on... Frenzys extra attack would give them a lot more damage potential.
    In my opinion it is the opposite. Aspirants with impetious are perfect. They are the hot heads that try to prove themselves, while the questing knights are hardened veterans who should be above that.

    The rule also makes a much needed distinction between the 2 core knight units. without it, Aspirants would feel less like their own unit and lose flavor, and would just be the slightly less good knights in the core section.

    Marcos24 wrote:

    So here’s a thought on adding quests for questing knights.
    Display Spoiler
    At the beginning of the when choosing spells also roll for a quest. If the finishing the quest is impossible, for example, no targets exist in the opponent’s army, reroll for a different quest. The following are examples I came up with on the spot. I feel the bonuses, disadvantages, and rewards should be very significant to encourage the player to use play towards them, as well as discouraging players from simply ignoring them

    Quest: Protect the weak: flank or rear charge an enemy in base contact with peasants

    bonus (rules to achieve that goal): gain light troops until goal is fulfilled. Reroll charges. Hatred against that target. Counts ranks as normal when in base contact with target

    Disadvantages: towards any other enemy unit, minimized charge roll, -1 leadership when in combat, def skill reduced to 1, agility reduced to 0

    Reward: Unit gains +1 discipline and Oath of Fealty for the rest of the game. Disadvantages and bonuses are removed





    Quest: Monster Slayers - Slay a model that causes fear

    Bonus: towards target, +1 to hit, +2 to charge roll, gains fearless

    Disadvantage: towards any other enemy, knights must reroll successful to hit rolls, -1 leadership in combat, cannot declare flee reaction

    Reward: Unit Gains +1 to wound and +1 resilience for the rest of the game. Disadvantages and bonuses are removed




    Quest: Decapitate the Snake - be involved combat where an enemy General is killed or captured

    Bonus - Enemy Characters and champions cannot declare duels, or volunteer which character or champion accepts a duel, when in a combat involving this unit. KoE characters can choose which model to duel.

    Disadvantages - against any unit without characters, enemy models gain distracting vs this unit

    Reward: enemies in base contact with this unit reduce their discipline by 1 and do not benefit from Rally Around the Flag. Disadvantages and bonuses are removed


    The enemy knows the quest too and can therefore debuff the questing knight unit.

    Let's see what debuffs this rule gives:

    Quest: Become the weak: By just not attacking peasants, the enemy can give the questing knights minimized charge roll, -1 leadership when in combat, def skill reduced to 1, agility reduced to 0. The questing knights have light troops in exchange and they will need it to escape every single unit of the enemy that is now attacking before them against Def skill 1 and they are worse at charging. This is especially grueling if you have only few or one peasant unit (say, 15 archers). Terrible. The only solution is to take no peasants at all or no questing knights at all or play a peasant army with one questing knight unit in it.

    Quest: Only Monster but nothing else Slayers: If the enemy keeps his fear causing units out of the way, by say, attacking the questers with a non-fear causing unit, he can force these highly and to narrowly specialised knights to reroll successful to hit rolls, -1 leadership in combat, and to make that attack by a non-fear causing unit more possible, they cannot declare flee reaction. I hope the fear causing units of the enemy isn't something has more maneuverability like a flying monster or something. Hope for many fear causers in the enemy ranks, but if you play against Dwarves or EoS, they are screwed.


    Quest: Nealy decapitate your own horse because you are too distracted: This is basically the same problem as above. While an army can have more than one fear causing unit, it will only have one general. until (or if) this general is slain [and hope that the questers aren't stopped from reaching him by chaff and other (worst case: hero-less) combat units or do not participating in the killing] the unit gets distracted against every unit without character models. This is the quest that is the least horrible, because they could at least try to hunt down weak enemies like wizards in units or something, but still not worth it.



    Every single one of these Quests translates to a horrible nerf that a good enemy player can exploit.
    Stone: "Nerf Paper, it is overpowered. Scissors are well balanced."
  • McBaine wrote:

    Marcos24 wrote:

    @McBaine well then change them smartass
    Yeah, a good enemy player will let you charge what you like whenever you like it without a counter or smart movement. Sure.
    no idiot... I’m saying change the quests themselves. The point of this post is to propose the idea of adding quests to questing knights. I don’t care about the details, they’re examples of the concept. If it doesn’t work... CHANGE them. Aw am I being too harsh? You’re inviting it with your smartass attitude so don’t be surprised
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Or use them as bait
    That could work, but why create a rule set that makes them into bait in the first place? They should be better than that.
    Maybe if you revise the Quests? Not too many bonuses, not to harsh of a disadvantage? Overall it is better to get an incentive to play them a certain way than punish them for not playing a certain way.

    Also, these are quite complex, random (as they are rolled) and therefore hard to price. My constructive criticism:

    • Maybe make them not random, but let the quest be an upgrade they can buy.
    • Lower or remove the disadvantages.
    • Keep them more simple (rules wise) and do not force too much book keeping (about which unit - if more than one - has reached the goal of the quest).
    Stone: "Nerf Paper, it is overpowered. Scissors are well balanced."
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    McBaine wrote:

    Marcos24 wrote:

    @McBaine well then change them smartass
    Yeah, a good enemy player will let you charge what you like whenever you like it without a counter or smart movement. Sure.
    no idiot... I’m saying change the quests themselves. The point of this post is to propose the idea of adding quests to questing knights. I don’t care about the details, they’re examples of the concept. If it doesn’t work... CHANGE them. Aw am I being too harsh? You’re inviting it with your smartass attitude so don’t be surprised
    lol, thanks for the ad hominem. Got up with the wrong foot this morning, have you? I posted constructive criticism above already. But you wanted to make the thing, not me. I can give you my feedback, but since you have no sense of humor, I will be more gentle next time.
    Stone: "Nerf Paper, it is overpowered. Scissors are well balanced."
  • Nope, you just came off as rude or at least that's how i perceived it. And i'm usually happy when someone does that so i can finally act rude back towards who i feel actually might deserve it. As long as you're day isn't ruined by it and you continue your tone i'll continue mine ;) so i'll say again.. change them.. if you have some ideas that could actually make the quest idea work
  • IMO the questing knights should be have a questing rule. A kind of Secondary Objectives table only for them. If they complete the quest during the game you win extra victory points.

    For example; Once the Deployment Type is established rolling a D6 and consulting the list below.
    If a unit of questing knights defeat one or more
    1-2 Gigantic models during the game.
    3-4 General or Battle Standard Bearer.
    5-6 Spell Casters

    That is all
    The Al-Qassar Sultanates (Homebrew)
    Halflings (Homebrew)
    Silexian Goblins (Homebrew)
    Feral Orcs (Homebrew)
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Nope, you just came off as rude or at least that's how i perceived it. And i'm usually happy when someone does that so i can finally act rude back towards who i feel actually might deserve it. As long as you're day isn't ruined by it and you continue your tone i'll continue mine so i'll say again.. change them.. if you have some ideas that could actually make the quest idea work
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    Wasn't my intention. And no, no days where ruined.
    I can think about it, but you didn't really say what you wanted, just presented one idea. So, can it be anything fluff wise quest related, or do you envision it as purely tasks the questing knights should do for a bonus?

    As an example (fluff): Being led by visions to the place they are supposed to be, the questing knights gain ambush (the quest being: help your brothers in arms to win this battle).

    For actual quests being tasks to solve for the knights, as a design guideline I would go with the things I said above (nothing random, bought as upgrades, not to complicated, boons for fullfilling the quest, but no punishment for not fullfilling the quest, nothing too complex or book-keeping intensive) and write something tomorrow. Then you can critizise.
    Stone: "Nerf Paper, it is overpowered. Scissors are well balanced."
  • I could get behind the idea of a quest. I do have a few bits of input just on the generic concept:

    The quest should not be randomly generated.
    Most players don't like that sort of thing because you can't bank on it. Even the thaumaturgy spell smite the unbeliever is too random for my tastes and its a fairly potent spell.

    I would also steer clear of additional drawbacks beyond what is already inherent to the army (human stats, susceptible to fear or whatever the inherent drawback is). Maybe if these were to be very minor or the controller can mitigate them easily and achieve the quest multiple times each game, then it would just add flavor.

    Lastly on that note I would make each quest broad and achievable each game and separate from the base quality of the unit.
    For another example, SA rhamphodon riders have what is somewhat of a quest. The key is that the unit is good even without it but much much better when the quest is activated. Their drawback is inherent (frenzy, fearless to an extent). Imagine if enemies other than their prey gained hatred against them.

    Anyway I haven't thought up any quests yet but these would be some of my personal criteria. I feel like if the quest was too narrow, too difficult to pull off or the drawback was too harsh.. any of these then the unit wouldn't see play.


    EchoCTRL had a couple quests he was messing with which I feel are pretty good. I'm no game designer but I'll brew on some tonight maybe.
    "Realistically (unless you're DanT or some other genius) you need characters.." -Sir_Sully

    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE
  • @McBaine Gotcha well then all is good ;) and my bad for not clarifying before responding in such a manner

    @McBaine @Stygian and my thought is, how do we make Questing Knight unit profiles and role on the tabletop match the fluff and be effective, and interesting? Well currently they're thought of as being monster hunters, or at least used to be, but @Klexe has mentioned that our other knights already fulfill that role and usually even better.

    I was thinking, is there anyway we can tie their actual quests into the game? In a way that doesn't implying their only quests are hunting monsters? So that was my idea, though i probably drew too much from RPG vs tabeltop games

    @setrius I think that idea is fitting, though i personally would prefer the rewards of a quest affect the unit specifically rather than provide Victory points. I feel like that would make a more interesting "story"
  • I think we should start with the basic concept and profile.
    I personally like the visual the gw models evoke. So to me that represents a more relaxed knight, due to his long journey in search of his quest. They have long since lost their impetuous nature to gallop off at the first site of a promise.
    Helmets are off hair is grown and they've long since expended their lances leaving them to rely on and become masters with the sword. They have also acquired many items and gear in their travels as well as vast experience. Not the same as the pure of heart and Martial discipline of the order of the grail. These are veterans of the road finally at the end and bent on seeing their task through to completion.

    In game terms maybe these translate to the lowest march movement value but completely unaffected by enemy musicians. Maybe their musicians completely drown enemy music.

    Not fearless, that is more for those who took the grail oath, yet their fear is minimized while in pursuit of their quest, as they are able to choose the more tactical side of valour.

    Scouting or a variation of ambush like the old green knight could be appropriate on this unit.

    Unlike the sheer power of a grail Lance charge these knights abilities are much harder to gauge.. Due to their complete battle focus, or something new like each casualty generates another attack as they are spurned on the closer they get to their goal.

    And perhaps even steadfast in their resolution, UNTIL their quest is accomplished! Or at least any urge to flee is minimized.
    This could be successfully defending a terrain piece or scoring an objective (I know you hate those lol).

    So maybe these knights rarely use or even have shields after all but they and their steeds are hardier more resolute with resolution 4.

    They are proficient with the great sword beyond what most will ever hope to achieve, thus they suffer no penalty for wielding these great weapons.

    Their quest? They steadfastly defend their sworn charge.. Be it land or lady. Should they fail, their quest is lost and so is their ability to sustain their fight. Should they succeed in repelling their enemy they can die happy because their quest is finally at its end.


    We could even (loosely) draw upon El Cid- "against overwhelming odds" or even..
    Don Quixote! -"no matter how hopeless"
    A questing knight unit engaged with a foe of either twice the points value or twice the models suffers no penalty to its combat resolution.

    Anyway just some wine soaked revery.
    "Realistically (unless you're DanT or some other genius) you need characters.." -Sir_Sully

    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Stygian ().

  • I agree with most things that @Stygian said. The classic quests boil down to maybe these three things:
    • Save the damsel in distress
    • Kill the dragon/questing beast
    • Seek something (i.e. the holy grail, the golden fleece, or the answer to a mystic riddle)
    I would like to make the quests unit upgrades options, so that those who want them can get them, but if you don't want them, you don't have to pay points for something you will not use.
    I decided to diversify it into an upgrade that makes the unit better as long as they protect a damsel, or, make them better against a certain type of enemy to encourage the player to do that quest thing and as a third option a reward for doing a quest. This is my take:

    Add the following to unit options:

    One choice only:
    Quest of Protection X/model
    Quest of Slaying Y/model
    Quest of Seeking Z/model

    Quest of Protection: The Knights of the Quest gain Bodyguard (Damsel).
    Quest of Slaying: The Knights of the Quest gain Multiple Wounds (D3,against Monsters).
    Quest of Seeking: If the Knights of the Quest helped scoring the Secondary Objective, the army gains +x victory points.
    Stone: "Nerf Paper, it is overpowered. Scissors are well balanced."