Taking the Game Too Seriously, and Ruining the Fun

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  • JimMorr wrote:

    otherwise two people living on the same street who would enjoy playing casually will never meet...
    Unless you talk to your neighbours sometimes, outdated behaviour I know ;)
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  • JimMorr wrote:

    @Mirdhynn you are not alone. There are hundreds of players who would enjoy playing t9a at less competitive level, without the whole metagaming. Making errors and laughing at them later.
    Eh? "Making errors and laughing at them later."

    That is not common in the UK t9a scene.
    This is nothing to do with competitive/casual. And there is no necessary or sufficient connection to the game.

    If scenes have this problem, it isn't t9a, it is the local gaming culture.



    The problem is casual community is not self-organizing, contrary to tournament community. It requires shops to support the game, otherwise two people living on the same street who would enjoy playing casually will never meet...
    Or, you know, gaming clubs. Is the UK really the only place with significant gaming clubs?

    Mirdhynn wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    I wish people would stop using the word fun, it is imprecise, subjective and unconstructive.
    Taking pleasure with a reasonable time investment
    Can you unpack this please?
    Is the problem the core rules, army books, both, neither?
    Is it the actual mechanics or presentation of the mechanics?
    Is it the game length?
    Is it the learning curve for a new player? Rules or strategy learning curve?
    What is currently not enjoyable? What would make it enjoyable?


    Some sample : Bolt Action, SAGA or even old 40k versions (not the current one) systems :
    I don't enjoy these systems, so this is not helpful to me :P



    Rules go fast to learn, learning curve is not as hard as 9th age.
    To repeat some of my questions above,

    Is it the actual mechanics or presentation of the mechanics?

    Rules or strategy learning curve?





    Of course there is some subtleties but you don't need to be at top level from start to approach the community (9th age is an elitist community from my point of view / context).
    What do you mean that t9a is an elitist community?

    Or that you need to be at top level to approach the community?
    Which community, where?
    As with my other response above, this doesn't sound to me like a t9a thing, it sounds like a local gaming culture thing. If the locals aren't supporting new players, that is on them, not the game. It happens somewhere with every game.



    And of course it was already the case with warhammer battle.
    The main people I saw being a$$holes to new players in WFB days, were typically casual WAAC players, who mostly went to AOS.
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  • @DanT : will try to formalize this today.
    I have no real time for now. As you perhaps know we have some other big priorities in France since yesterday (no more school for our children, have to organize our work around this postulate)
    Just to give you a guide line for elitism :
    - The 9th age community around me is really elitist (tournament player who target top level)
    - The 9th age community is general seems to be the same (as far as I can see on this forum)
    - The 9th age game is driven by tournament statistics.
    - Rule complexity is enhanced by the preceding postulate : you can grow in experience quietly on a complicated game if your environment have the same level as you. This is not the same case if all your opponent are top level ones.
  • JimMorr wrote:

    Better get up early
    there are more potential players in that apartment block than there are people living within a 20 mile radius of me, get busy and recruit! A nice 50ft banner hung out your window should round up the nerds pretty quick, that's if there isn't a communal notice board or the likes.
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    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019

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  • Mirdhynn wrote:

    @DanT : will try to formalize this today.
    I have no real time for now. As you perhaps know we have some other big priorities in France since yesterday (no more school for our children, have to organize our work around this postulate)
    Of course. Those things are far more important than discussing toy soldiers :P





    Just to give you a guide line for elitism :
    - The 9th age community around me is really elitist (tournament player who target top level)
    Ok. That is not true near me.



    - The 9th age community is general seems to be the same (as far as I can see on this forum)
    As I say, that is not true near me.



    - The 9th age game is driven by tournament statistics.
    Points costs are, because that is the only good source of quantitative data. This is irrelevant to elitism though. X-wing could do the same (well, they kinda do already) and it wouldn't make the game more elitist.



    - Rule complexity is enhanced by the preceding postulate : you can grow in experience quietly on a complicated game if your environment have the same level as you. This is not the same case if all your opponent are top level ones.
    I don't agree with this statement. It is an issue of gaming culture.

    I go out of my way to help new/aspiring players.
    If your local players don't do that, it is on them, not the game.

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
    Empire of Dannstahl HERE
  • DanT wrote:

    Eh? "Making errors and laughing at them later."
    That is not common in the UK t9a scene.
    This is nothing to do with competitive/casual. And there is no necessary or sufficient connection to the game.
    You know, for us, casual players the game is only part of social event. Rules are not most important part of it. Meeting friends is. Playing together is. Once a month T9A, once a month X-Wing, once a month Hail Ceasar and and once a month Battletech. No one knows all the rules from all the games but we enjoy it.
    Do not expect casual players to have the same level of engagement as hardcore tournament players. Most filthy casuals like me know and enjoy 10-12 different gaming systems. I know each of them... more or less. Expecting people to drop other hobbies because there our game requires more connection might be also "taking the game too seriusly" ;)
  • JimMorr wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Eh? "Making errors and laughing at them later."
    That is not common in the UK t9a scene.
    This is nothing to do with competitive/casual. And there is no necessary or sufficient connection to the game.
    You know, for us, casual players the game is only part of social event. Rules are not most important part of it. Meeting friends is. Playing together is. Once a month T9A, once a month X-Wing, once a month Hail Ceasar and and once a month Battletech. No one knows all the rules from all the games but we enjoy it.Do not expect casual players to have the same level of engagement as hardcore tournament players. Most filthy casuals like me know and enjoy 10-12 different gaming systems. I know each of them... more or less. Expecting people to drop other hobbies because there our game requires more connection might be also "taking the game too seriusly" ;)
    I don't see how this has any bearing on my comment?

    I know people who play loads of systems and also sometimes play t9a.
    This is fine. It is possible with t9a just like with other systems.
    I'm afraid I don't get your point here.
    Who has said anything about expecting anyone to drop other hobbies to play t9a? I certainly haven't.
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  • DanT wrote:

    JimMorr wrote:

    @Mirdhynn you are not alone. There are hundreds of players who would enjoy playing t9a at less competitive level, without the whole metagaming. Making errors and laughing at them later.
    Eh? "Making errors and laughing at them later."

    That is not common in the UK t9a scene.
    This is nothing to do with competitive/casual. And there is no necessary or sufficient connection to the game.

    If scenes have this problem, it isn't t9a, it is the local gaming culture.



    The problem is casual community is not self-organizing, contrary to tournament community. It requires shops to support the game, otherwise two people living on the same street who would enjoy playing casually will never meet...
    Or, you know, gaming clubs. Is the UK really the only place with significant gaming clubs?


    1) If people never laugh when playing, it's probably a competitive scene in an absolute sense, even if you personally consider most of the participants to be casual scrubs.


    2) As I understand it, yes, the UK has a very different scene to the rest of the world. You'd need people who've moved about to be more precise on the differences.


    Mirdhynn wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    I wish people would stop using the word fun, it is imprecise, subjective and unconstructive.
    Taking pleasure with a reasonable time investmentCan you unpack this please?
    Is the problem the core rules, army books, both, neither?
    Is it the actual mechanics or presentation of the mechanics?
    Is it the game length?
    Is it the learning curve for a new player? Rules or strategy learning curve?
    What is currently not enjoyable? What would make it enjoyable?


    Some sample : Bolt Action, SAGA or even old 40k versions (not the current one) systems :
    I don't enjoy these systems, so this is not helpful to me :P



    Rules go fast to learn, learning curve is not as hard as 9th age.
    To repeat some of my questions above,

    Is it the actual mechanics or presentation of the mechanics?

    Rules or strategy learning curve?





    Of course there is some subtleties but you don't need to be at top level from start to approach the community (9th age is an elitist community from my point of view / context).
    What do you mean that t9a is an elitist community?

    Or that you need to be at top level to approach the community?
    Which community, where?
    As with my other response above, this doesn't sound to me like a t9a thing, it sounds like a local gaming culture thing. If the locals aren't supporting new players, that is on them, not the game. It happens somewhere with every game.



    And of course it was already the case with warhammer battle.
    The main people I saw being a$$holes to new players in WFB days, were typically casual WAAC players, who mostly went to AOS.


    DanT wrote:

    Mirdhynn wrote:

    @DanT : will try to formalize this today.
    I have no real time for now. As you perhaps know we have some other big priorities in France since yesterday (no more school for our children, have to organize our work around this postulate)
    Of course. Those things are far more important than discussing toy soldiers :P


    Amen. Although conversely, if you're stuck at home bored, these discussions can be a good distraction.


    Just to give you a guide line for elitism :
    - The 9th age community around me is really elitist (tournament player who target top level)
    Ok. That is not true near me.



    - The 9th age community is general seems to be the same (as far as I can see on this forum)
    As I say, that is not true near me.

    I think you need to consider the possibility that you're grading on a curve here. "Could be more competitive" is not the same as is "not competitive".

    - The 9th age game is driven by tournament statistics.
    Points costs are, because that is the only good source of quantitative data. This is irrelevant to elitism though. X-wing could do the same (well, they kinda do already) and it wouldn't make the game more elitist.

    It also drives conversation here, on the major hub of discussion about T9A.

    - Rule complexity is enhanced by the preceding postulate : you can grow in experience quietly on a complicated game if your environment have the same level as you. This is not the same case if all your opponent are top level ones.
    I don't agree with this statement. It is an issue of gaming culture.

    I go out of my way to help new/aspiring players.
    If your local players don't do that, it is on them, not the game.



    Ehn. Remember conversations we've had about signposting? Games can be harder or easier to improve at.

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  • JimMorr wrote:

    I see where the misunderstanding is. When I said "Laughing at them" I meant laughing at own errors. You read it as laughing at people. You answered to laughing at people and I responded to laughing at errors.
    Ah, got it.
    I thought you were talking about the "elitism" thing.

    I and all my opponents laugh during games all the time.
    And I know many t9a players who laugh at their mistakes (I don't cos I don't make any :P This is of course facetious before anyone makes an "elite" comment).
    I don't understand what your point is here?

    If your local players don't do this, then they probably wouldn't do it with any game.


    I think this is my key point:
    Players who are a$$holes will be so in any system.
    Players who aren't won't be.
    Whilst game system will have some bearing on who plays what, there are also strong historical, cultural, sociological and accidental reasons for why different pockets of players play different games. It is nowhere near as strongly correlated with game system as some here are claiming.

    Most players I know primarily play what their friends play, I am rare amongst most of the gamers I know for having very strong system preferences (e.g. I don't like the aesthetic of skirmish systems, no matter how good they are).

    That said, I have long claimed there is a selection effect about who posts on the t9a forum, but that is a different issue ;)
    Most t9a players I know refuse to post on this forum...
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  • It seems like this topic, as all on the same subject before, devolved into people not playing on tournaments commenting on their disconnected from reality idea on how tournament players behave versus people really invested into the game commenting on their disconnected from reality idea on how extreme casual players play and act like.

    It is pretty clear - even just rule volume wise that T9A is closer to elitist than casual game as it is extremely hard to pick it up on your own. That doesn't change the fact that tournament community is mostly composed of really nice and friendly people who are willing to teach you how to play and how to play better. How to marry those two is a different question though.
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  • DanT wrote:

    JimMorr wrote:

    I see where the misunderstanding is. When I said "Laughing at them" I meant laughing at own errors. You read it as laughing at people. You answered to laughing at people and I responded to laughing at errors.
    Ah, got it.I thought you were talking about the "elitism" thing.

    I and all my opponents laugh during games all the time.
    And I know many t9a players who laugh at their mistakes (I don't cos I don't make any :P This is of course facetious before anyone makes an "elite" comment).
    I don't understand what your point is here?

    If your local players don't do this, then they probably wouldn't do it with any game.


    I think this is my key point:
    Players who are a$$holes will be so in any system.
    Players who aren't won't be.
    Whilst game system will have some bearing on who plays what, there are also strong historical, cultural, sociological and accidental reasons for why different pockets of players play different games. It is nowhere near as strongly correlated with game system as some here are claiming.

    Most players I know primarily play what their friends play, I am rare amongst most of the gamers I know for having very strong system preferences (e.g. I don't like the aesthetic of skirmish systems, no matter how good they are).

    That said, I have long claimed there is a selection effect about who posts on the t9a forum, but that is a different issue ;)
    Most t9a players I know refuse to post on this forum...

    It doesn't take strong selection forces to winnow out or encourage people over time.

    As you say - people play what their friends play. That means that one person shifted either direction can snowball.


    But also, definitely, yes, almost anyone posting on an internet forum is a super-enfranchised player who is highly invested in the game.

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  • Mirdhynn wrote:

    - The 9th age community is general seems to be the same (as far as I can see on this forum)
    Judging the community by the forums is a baaaaaaad indicator in my experience. The forums often make me want to smack my head against the wall, but the Australian community is nothing like that.

    Also, the things people say about casuals enjoying the social aspect of the game and seeing friends is literally why I go to tournaments. Theres around 50 regular tournament goers and Im good mates with a big contingent of them - going to tournaments is how I see all my interstate mates
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  • DarkSky wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Most t9a players I know refuse to post on this forum...
    Do you know why?It's the same in my group, but honestly I don't really know. Maybe I should do some inquiries…
    Mainly they see the forums as primarily a place of unreasonable moaning, complaining and negativity.

    I genuinely think some peoples hobby is complaining about things; this was certainly the case back in GW days, it even got mentioned during a training session once when I was GW staff.
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  • DanT wrote:

    Mainly they see the forums as primarily a place of unreasonable moaning, complaining and negativity.
    I genuinely think some peoples hobby is complaining about things; this was certainly the case back in GW days, it even got mentioned during a training session once when I was GW staff.
    Better answer than what I was going to give. I was going to screenshot stuff xD

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  • Tyranno wrote:

    As I know a lot of kids are into D&D these days, and that is NOT an easy to remember game rules-wise.
    I've only played 5e D&D but from that experience:

    But most D&D players don't need to remember all the rules as the DM and other players will keep you straight. You just need to remember the rules that specifically relate to your character. E.g. If I'm a fighter with no spells, I don't need to know how spells work. I can still effectively make decisions as the game is focused on roleplaying.

    T9A doesn't work like that as there are only 2 players playing the game so you need to know all the rules.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Sir_Sully wrote:

    I've only played 5e D&D but from that experience:
    But most D&D players don't need to remember all the rules as the DM and other players will keep you straight. You just need to remember the rules that specifically relate to your character. E.g. If I'm a fighter with no spells, I don't need to know how spells work. I can still effectively make decisions as the game is focused on roleplaying.

    T9A doesn't work like that as there are only 2 players playing the game so you need to know all the rules.
    I personally know a DM that is like 17/18, and their little sister knows them off by heart as well. Trust me, the younger generation can get complex rules.

    Lord of the Hobby

    The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
  • Tyranno wrote:

    Sir_Sully wrote:

    I've only played 5e D&D but from that experience:
    But most D&D players don't need to remember all the rules as the DM and other players will keep you straight. You just need to remember the rules that specifically relate to your character. E.g. If I'm a fighter with no spells, I don't need to know how spells work. I can still effectively make decisions as the game is focused on roleplaying.

    T9A doesn't work like that as there are only 2 players playing the game so you need to know all the rules.
    I personally know a DM that is like 17/18, and their little sister knows them off by heart as well. Trust me, the younger generation can get complex rules.
    Not the point but yes, young doesn't mean they can't understand complex. I was playing WFB from age 11 so...
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.