Taking the Game Too Seriously, and Ruining the Fun

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The brand new army book for Infernal Dwarves is finally available, along with a small surprise! Remember that it is a beta version, and provide us your feedback!

  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    deejwii wrote:

    @WastelandWarrior let bring him for our next game, we show him good vibes and fun, will bring Polish support ;) - by the way where is your next tournament?
    I’m at English championships 4/5th April are you attending? If so I’m up for a drunken warmup game on the Friday!

    Grouchy Badger wrote:

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    I don’t understand the difference between casual mindset and tourney mindset. Every game I play is in good spirits and I never notice anyone has engaged hardcore a$$hole mode when I play in tourneys. There are just good people and bad people, I don’t believe tourney has anything to do with it
    Everything is always subject to personal experience, but it seems the French player sees a lot of the bad than the good.
    maybe there are just a lot of nasty characters on the french tourney scene? I couldn’t say never having played outside the uk
    Championship 4-5th April?
    I don't want to rain on your parade but you should definitely sell your soul to Nurgle for protection before attending. Why? Well, every worshipper knows that his power has risen to it's peak and even spills out into real life...
  • On subject with taking the game too seriously, what's the deal with players being anti- sci-fi in T9A?

    Like, posted a bit ago, the idea of running Stars Wars Legion Empire as EoS. Although people thought it was funny and enjoyed it on that note, there was quite a bit of objection.

    T9A might not have an official stance here, but like why not have an official stance if it matters so much to the players?

    PS: Star Wars is not technically sci-fi. It's a space fantasy setting, there's just not enough science in those films to qualify as Sci-Fi, and while there are books that probably cover it better, the books are based on the films...not the other way around.

    PPS: Plus there doesn't seem to be any objection to running Chaos Space Marines as Warriors of the Dark Gods (seen this one quite a few times)
    My army Wip blogs:
    Knights of Nethys (WDG) | Tanks and such (EoS)

    Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
  • I agree wholeheartedly with Adam and Mirdhynn. In response to my earlier comments I want people to understand that I believe we only mention these issues as we love this game but we can see some cracks in the framework as it were.

    I am a tourney player and lover of big events but perhaps the one thing I lament the most is the lack of growth in the game.

    I have read articles and seen YouTube videos warning of the death of our game, I don't think that will happen but growth may and/or has stagnated. This stagnation I believe is a seemingly a 100% focus on tourney play. Hence I use the term "Elitist" in describing those involved with T9A.

    That being said things are going much better than the insane panic over this virus here in North America. This forum is awesome, I thoroughly enjoy the game, the game mechanics are solid and fun and all the support that is provided by the T9A teams are great. I am a big fan of the 9th Scroll and was pumped to see a member of my local T9A club have a unit pictured in the latest issue.

    This is a great conversation on an important topic and if there are any takeaways for the T9A staff its that we cannot ignore game growth and expansion of possible rules and systems that would encourage newer players to play our game in perhaps different ways with different goals.
    "Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy." Sun Tzu
  • Chronocide wrote:

    On subject with taking the game too seriously, what's the deal with players being anti- sci-fi in T9A?

    Like, posted a bit ago, the idea of running Stars Wars Legion Empire as EoS. Although people thought it was funny and enjoyed it on that note, there was quite a bit of objection.

    T9A might not have an official stance here, but like why not have an official stance if it matters so much to the players?

    PS: Star Wars is not technically sci-fi. It's a space fantasy setting, there's just not enough science in those films to qualify as Sci-Fi, and while there are books that probably cover it better, the books are based on the films...not the other way around.

    PPS: Plus there doesn't seem to be any objection to running Chaos Space Marines as Warriors of the Dark Gods (seen this one quite a few times)
    I know this is a massive off-topic but I cant help it....

    how is star wars not science fiction? Because it has no science? Whats the requirement for science- a few physics equations or chemical reactions being discussed? You be confusing science with technology.

    I dont think you could say anything us technically in or out because there is no official definition, but typically science fiction is any narrative where the setting any, all or one of; technology in advance of present day, time travel, or space travel. If you want to debate what is on the fringe, you look at looper, bill and ted, or interstellar.

    but star wars? Totally science fiction.
  • Chronocide wrote:

    On subject with taking the game too seriously, what's the deal with players being anti- sci-fi in T9A?

    Like, posted a bit ago, the idea of running Stars Wars Legion Empire as EoS. Although people thought it was funny and enjoyed it on that note, there was quite a bit of objection.

    T9A might not have an official stance here, but like why not have an official stance if it matters so much to the players?

    PS: Star Wars is not technically sci-fi. It's a space fantasy setting, there's just not enough science in those films to qualify as Sci-Fi, and while there are books that probably cover it better, the books are based on the films...not the other way around.

    PPS: Plus there doesn't seem to be any objection to running Chaos Space Marines as Warriors of the Dark Gods (seen this one quite a few times)
    but on the proxy question:

    yes t9a is model agnostic. But a knight needs to look like a knight, because as your opponent I estimate you threat potentials vusually.

    a chaos marine is probably a warrior. But what is a marine on bike (25 x 50) A hound, a marauder horseman, or a knight? I need to concentrate on what you told me and if i get it wrong i will likely feel a bit cheated.
  • Damo wrote:

    I know this is a massive off-topic but I cant help it....
    how is star wars not science fiction? Because it has no science? Whats the requirement for science- a few physics equations or chemical reactions being discussed? You be confusing science with technology.

    I dont think you could say anything us technically in or out because there is no official definition, but typically science fiction is any narrative where the setting any, all or one of; technology in advance of present day, time travel, or space travel. If you want to debate what is on the fringe, you look at looper, bill and ted, or interstellar.

    but star wars? Totally science fiction.
    There is actually a definition for Science Fiction. That said, the common use is that future setting are referred to as Sci-fi and past settings are fantasy, but that's not really the distinction, just the layman's assumption because most films about science fiction happen to be set in the future, or be time travel focused, or be space focused.

    Webster's definition:

    Merriam-Webster wrote:

    Definition of science fiction
    : fiction dealing principally with the impact of actual or imagined science on society or individuals or having a scientific factor as an essential orienting component
    Star wars (as in, A New Hope) may have references to other sci-fi film concepts, but it's a fantasy adventure, not science fiction.

    What part of "farmer hero joins wizard to save princess" really strikes you as science fiction? That's the plot of A New Hope.

    Damo wrote:

    but on the proxy question:
    yes t9a is model agnostic. But a knight needs to look like a knight, because as your opponent I estimate you threat potentials vusually.

    a chaos marine is probably a warrior. But what is a marine on bike (25 x 50) A hound, a marauder horseman, or a knight? I need to concentrate on what you told me and if i get it wrong i will likely feel a bit cheated.
    For starters, proxy implies that T9A has an officially appointed model kit, like GW does, and that I'm using this instead. By lacking official models, I can't really proxy in this manner.

    Okay, sake of argument, if I have every model clearly labeled with what they are supposed to be (unit name, weapons, size, type), would that make a difference?

    Alternatively, if my "proxy" is really spot on with what it's supposed to be. Like the Chaos Space Marine standing in for a Chaos Warriors (not talking about the bikes).

    Or, in the earlier example, like a star wars Empire Storm Trooper with a laser Rifle representing a Empire Handgunner with a Handgun?

    You can just look at it and know it's an Empire model. And it's got a handgun no matter how you look at it. And if it's on the right base and is about the right size...where is the legitimate complaint?

    ....And honestly, I think people recognize that Empire better than they'd be able to recognize models for the T9A EoS...
    My army Wip blogs:
    Knights of Nethys (WDG) | Tanks and such (EoS)

    Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Chronocide ().

  • Chronocide wrote:

    Damo wrote:

    I know this is a massive off-topic but I cant help it....
    how is star wars not science fiction? Because it has no science? Whats the requirement for science- a few physics equations or chemical reactions being discussed? You be confusing science with technology.

    I dont think you could say anything us technically in or out because there is no official definition, but typically science fiction is any narrative where the setting any, all or one of; technology in advance of present day, time travel, or space travel. If you want to debate what is on the fringe, you look at looper, bill and ted, or interstellar.

    but star wars? Totally science fiction.
    There is actually a definition for Science Fiction. That said, the common use is that future setting are referred to as Sci-fi and past settings are fantasy, but that's not really the distinction, just the layman's assumption because most films about science fiction happen to be set in the future, or be time travel focused, or be space focused.
    Webster's definition:

    Merriam-Webster wrote:

    Definition of science fiction
    : fiction dealing principally with the impact of actual or imagined science on society or individuals or having a scientific factor as an essential orienting component
    Star wars (as in, A New Hope) may have references to other sci-fi film concepts, but it's a fantasy adventure, not science fiction.
    What part of "farmer hero joins wizard to save princess" really strikes you as science fiction? That's the plot of A New Hope.

    Damo wrote:

    but on the proxy question:
    yes t9a is model agnostic. But a knight needs to look like a knight, because as your opponent I estimate you threat potentials vusually.

    a chaos marine is probably a warrior. But what is a marine on bike (25 x 50) A hound, a marauder horseman, or a knight? I need to concentrate on what you told me and if i get it wrong i will likely feel a bit cheated.
    For starters, proxy implies that T9A has an officially appointed model kit, like GW does, and that I'm using this instead. By lacking official models, I can't really proxy in this manner.
    Okay, sake of argument, if I have every model clearly labeled with what they are supposed to be (unit name, weapons, size, type), would that make a difference?

    Alternatively, if my "proxy" is really spot on with what it's supposed to be. Like the Chaos Space Marine standing in for a Chaos Warriors (not talking about the bikes).

    Or, in the earlier example, like a star wars Empire Storm Trooper with a laser Rifle representing a Empire Handgunner with a Handgun?

    You can just look at it and know it's an Empire model. And it's got a handgun no matter how you look at it. And if it's on the right base and is about the right size...where is the legitimate complaint?

    ....And honestly, I think people recognize that Empire better than they'd be able to recognize models for the T9A EoS...
    Asimov's definition is : that branch of literature which is concerned with the impact of scientific advance upon human beings"

    or to put it another way (which fits with your definition above), technology. Technology is the application of new science (the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry). So science fiction by this definition is fiction based in an environment that has advanced through the application of science, not fiction pertaining to science.

    Hang on- I'm completely wrong.

    My next point was going to be 'we can safety assume that all the advanced technology in stars wars was created through application of scientific principles' But remember in the rise of skywalker when the emperor just makes thousands of star destroyers with planet killing weapons with..., the force? yeah. so no. space magic, no science. (btw personally enjoying the discussion, please don't take this as snipy or condescending).

    On the proxy question:

    In my meta, we've had some odd proxy armies- a fruit for ogres army, and a pony for ogres army. Ogres seem to be the easiest to proxy, probably because the bases aren't so tight.

    they are okay, but you still have consciously think- its that fairy a merc vet or a bombardier? An ogre with a cannon is much easier.

    I would also suggest that its very difficult to get a good fit across the full range of units. Most armies have 20+ different types of units (across heros, core, special, and monsters). with the exception of equitaine and ogres, which are more uniform. You're unlikely to easily find a distinct model that quickly and easily visually provides the right cues to your opponent.
  • Damo wrote:

    Hang on- I'm completely wrong.
    On the proxy question:

    In my meta, we've had some odd proxy armies- a fruit for ogres army, and a pony for ogres army. Ogres seem to be the easiest to proxy, probably because the bases aren't so tight.

    they are okay, but you still have consciously think- its that fairy a merc vet or a bombardier? An ogre with a cannon is much easier.

    I would also suggest that its very difficult to get a good fit across the full range of units. Most armies have 20+ different types of units (across heros, core, special, and monsters). with the exception of equitaine and ogres, which are more uniform. You're unlikely to easily find a distinct model that quickly and easily visually provides the right cues to your opponent.
    I was kinda worried that the Star Wars side topic could go on forever if I wasn't careful. Glad that's resolved.

    Regarding miniature selection, you make a valid point.

    The counter, though, is that not ever unit actually has to be represented because an army doesn't needs 1 of everything. I looked into it, while probably not very effective, I can actually field an EoS army without any other type of Core, other than Handgunners.

    Darth Vader is an easy Marshal with Light of Sonnstahl...

    The Emperor is an Easy Wizard.

    Royal Guards would make easy Imperial Guards with Great Weapons.


    Those are the obvious ones. For less close ones, we've got:

    An AT ST that would make a really cool Steam Tank (there's also an actual tank kit for storm troopers, but it's less iconic).

    Scout bikers with pistols to count as Reiters.

    And there's Storm Troop Heavy Weapon teams for Mortars and Cannons (or perhaps a volley gun).

    Mounted storm trooper with "shock lance" on that weird creature from Mos Eisly could easily be a Knight Commander on Young Griffon



    That's not everything EoS, but it is enough to make a legal 4500pt army.

    And that's just the options that Star Wars Legion has that don't actually require any converting. With conversions, I could easily get everything represented with very little confusion.



    But it's still Space fantasy in a medieval fantasy setting that bugs people.
    My army Wip blogs:
    Knights of Nethys (WDG) | Tanks and such (EoS)

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  • A huge part of wargaming is, for plenty of others beyond myself, the visual aspect and matching around blocks of guys between buildings and in forests and whatever. There is a lot to be said about the appeal of your unit of knights actually in the field. Its immersive. It photographs well. Random minis that need to be labeled stretches the limit of what is going to be acceptable in most cases. Science fiction proxies? Personally I don't care how much care and time and effort you spent in getting them all done up to represent X, it's selfish and more than a little insulting that you don't want to buy into the 'fantasy' aspect of a 'fantasy' wargame. I do love me some Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, but an army of battle droids is too far.

    There is another aspect to this, and the most damning thing of all - flat terrain. That gives off the worst vibes. It is not appealing to new players. It distills things in a very gamey, unpleasant way and removes another aspect of the hobby in favor of what I presume is meant to be balance. And some people DO see that as being a little intimidating or taking things too seriously. A lot of soul is lost when there isnt even a token effort to make a hill look like a hill or a forest look like a forest but instead just roll put a little picture and call it a day.
  • In my gaming environment we usually put 3D terrain on top of the 2D, and only use the 2D when units actually enter the Terrain Feature. It's quite practical indeed, but visually the table looks good as well.
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor's HE army
  • Damo wrote:

    how is star wars not science fiction? Because it has no science? Whats the requirement for science- a few physics equations or chemical reactions being discussed? You be confusing science with technology.
    Science fiction is fundamentally about the effects of imagined future technology on society, politics and people. It doesn't even really matter how realistic the science is (that's the difference between hard and soft Sci Fi), but Star Wars is an epic adventure story, not a Science fiction story.
    I have whirl’d with the earth at the dawningWhen the sky was a vaporous flameI have seen the dark universe yawning,
    Where the black planets roll without aim;
    Where they roll in their horror unheeded, without knowledge or lustre or name.
  • Personally, my first experience with a tournament was asking my opponent about where his troops were from and what the inspiration for his charge was, as I liked it, but didn't recognize it. Then being basically told to shut up and set up my army, I was wasting time.
    I have whirl’d with the earth at the dawningWhen the sky was a vaporous flameI have seen the dark universe yawning,
    Where the black planets roll without aim;
    Where they roll in their horror unheeded, without knowledge or lustre or name.
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Mmmm. Most forests I've seen in the last decade have been magnetized so you can put a unit in there and then put the trees back once a unit leaves. It's just more practical to not try and balance a tray full of metal miniatures on the edge of a round surface.
    since last year i started to make magnetized forests and buildings. Easier to fix if woods are broken etc. As tournament organizer, its also easier to storage terrain for smaller boxes without worrying that terrain breaks.

    I like 3D terrain, i dont never think to get 2D terrain. Battlefield must look good.
  • Eldan wrote:

    Personally, my first experience with a tournament was asking my opponent about where his troops were from and what the inspiration for his charge was, as I liked it, but didn't recognize it. Then being basically told to shut up and set up my army, I was wasting time.
    Let me guess, that was no T9A tourney or?
  • Pigtails wrote:

    A huge part of wargaming is, for plenty of others beyond myself, the visual aspect and matching around blocks of guys between buildings and in forests and whatever. There is a lot to be said about the appeal of your unit of knights actually in the field. Its immersive. It photographs well. Random minis that need to be labeled stretches the limit of what is going to be acceptable in most cases. Science fiction proxies? Personally I don't care how much care and time and effort you spent in getting them all done up to represent X, it's selfish and more than a little insulting that you don't want to buy into the 'fantasy' aspect of a 'fantasy' wargame. I do love me some Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, but an army of battle droids is too far.
    Well, star wars isn't science fiction, as we've covered that a few times. It's a fantasy.

    If the issue is future tech, let me remind you that the tech levels in T9A are not consistent between the factions. Some are, in terms of real life tech, several thousand years apart (or more).

    Just look at SA vs EoS, that's Barbarians with Dinosaurs vs Renaissance Humans (or even up to WW1/The Great War)...that's tech levels, what, 65 million years apart...why is going back in time okay for tech levels, but going forward isn't? From the SA perspective, black powder is Science Fiction.

    I mean, you want Steam Tanks, the only one on record I can find is from 1918 ad....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_tank

    Otherwise the steam tank is science fiction, as it represents theoretical uses of tech only. Steam punk is a subgenre of Science Fiction (or Science Fantasy) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

    As for labeling being contrary to immersion, while I do agree, I'm already running into players that complain that the entire DL army requires near constant asking of what is what without regard to actual model selection. They complain we have like 5 upgrades per unit and no iconic look each unit type. So the issue of labeled models innately ruining immersion seems like moot point if it's important towards actually playing the game under normal circumstances.
    My army Wip blogs:
    Knights of Nethys (WDG) | Tanks and such (EoS)

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