Dwarf Holds LAB Brainstorm/Ideas Thread

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  • Dwarf Holds LAB Brainstorm/Ideas Thread

    With alll the hustle and bustle with the new ID book, I think DH could use a brainstorm thread.
    This is a brainstorm ideas thread where we can all share our ideas.

    I will ask to try to have semi-well constructed posts. ...mostly avoid one liners that balloon the thread to 500pages. ...nobody wants to read that. You can critique each other but remember this Brainstorm format so it's just about putting the ideas out and most of them get refined/changed/scrapped anyway. So if you strongly disagree with an idea remember to be respectful and clearly explain the reason you don't like that particular direction to take the rules in.

    This is a GRUDGE-FREE thread, so please check your grudge books at the door. :)


    I'll start things off.

    While I think "token tracking" should be limited in T9A, I don't mind if a couple armies have it. ID have their incendiary tokens. I think DH could do a similar tracking with Grudges/Hatred on enemy units.

    Any enemy unit that kills/breaks/causes a panic check will get a grudge token. That token causes DH units to gain Hatred against it. A second grudge token will grant a re-roll shooting bonus of some sort.
    ....this is very brainstormy so it would have to be refined to power balance such as still being able to mark 1 enemy unit at start of game.
  • I am fine with the hatred mechanic as it is.

    I would like to see a rework on super boring bound magic phase.
    I would like all our artillery be on square bases.
    I would like the anvil beeing a mount for a runic Smith... Oh and I wish back the old master runic Smith to get r5 on him back.

    Some point tweaks on some units and changed starting size on core units.

    Rework of runic items to get cheap runes that make sense.

    I don't want any kind of power creep and special rules bloat.
  • berti wrote:

    I would like the anvil beeing a mount for a runic Smith..
    Perhaps the Anvil goes atop a big "bastion" that acts as a war platform to go inside units?
    ....when I see the ID prophet on the bastion with magic I just think of the dwarf anvil on top hammering away spells.
  • Anvil of power: What would fit the anvil of power is a MR area around it.
    It would suit it well the way I think of it. It draws the magic out of the air and into itself, stronger the closer you get.
    Meaning it should work on all enemy spells in the area,
    not only those cast on the DH player. For example, 24" MR 1, 12" MR 2 and 6" MR 3

    Forge wardens: Make it feel like a flame thrower, not like those allrady in the game, but
    something like this: For every consecutive round of shooting at the same target the strenght and ap of the shot will increase by 1.
    It could be alitlebit weak the first time it shoots like now, but if it can shoot 2 rounds or more in a row on a target it will get rally scary, forcing the opponent to get out of the way or get "burned"

    Take away the magic phase like it is now and give them a Runic upgrade system instead.
    Every entry has it's own runic upgrade that costs a set amount of runic points apropriate for the quality of it. They dont have to be unique, some units may have the same upgrades.
    For example:
    King's Guard; reduse enemy AP by 2. Runic point cost 3
    Rangers; gain quick to fire and +2 charge range. Runic point cost 1
    Miners: Reroll ambush dice and enemy units charging the miners will take a DT 1 test. Runic pont cost 2
    How many points you get will be chosen with a set of runic cards (instead of the flux cards everyone has) with values from 2-6/3-7 or something like that.
    Just an idea. How it would work and how powerful it would be since its not magic and therefore can't be dispelled is another question, but it would be something no other race has. And it won't be magic, something that many thinks is not the dwarven way
  • I love that this conversation has been initiated. Here I go with some ideas of what my LAB DH would look like.

    To begin with, I would try to make the book revolve, in some way, around the theme of stone and lightning. I had also thought, because of the Fire Industry ID rule, that we could have some similar kind of mechanics to make lists. It might be fun if you have some Innovator type restrictions or a balance between Innovator/traditional. Innovative would be for gunpowder WM and helicopters, while traditional could be blacksmiths, anvils and HG. This would need to be thought about, it has a lot of flavor but if it doesn't fit well it's a layer of complexity and restriction that I don't know if it will be good.

    I would concentrate the complexity in 4 fundamental pillars.
    1) the runes. A wider system of runes, with more variety, perhaps with enhanced rune options if you use several, as in Warhammer's 8ed. Perhaps make some runes have to be activated with veil tokens if they are very powerful.

    2) the magic phase and battle runes. A unique magic phase. Reliable but fun. Different rune casters have different effects. The blacksmith would be for empowerments, the anvil for damage. I would put one attribute of the path (or a different one for the blacksmith and another for the anvil) and please, the anvil needs some way to throw lightning, it's like having a dragon that can't throw fire.

    3) Grudges. A little complexity on this subject seems reasonable to me. I like the idea that if a unit kills one of our own it gains a hate marker. There are many ways to approach it. Personally I prefer something less strong than hate but that affects more shifts, and even shooting. And that allows for repeat failed charges against units that hate each other.

    4) this is a wet dream. Clans. This seems to me fundamental and a capital sin and a crime against humanity that has not been done. I used to raise clans already formed, with their modifications in the slots and preferences, but now I have a better idea, I think. You could consider making a list of five or six archetypes and forming your Clan with them, choosing two when making the list. For example: Clan warrior, craftsman, merchant, innovator and entrepreneur. Each clan has a little skill. Warrior Clans could repeat the 1s in Dis, or ignore the enemy ranks in RC. Craftsmen have more runes or reroll 1 of armor, I don't know. Also if you put a king you get unlocked by the real Clan. Clans could also make a minimal unit like Core.

    Following the special rules. It would make Sturdy keep giving +1S, but without +1AP, in return it would make the GW get devastating charge (lightning reflexes). And for firing units I would include in Sturdy that ignore -1 to H&S and lose Undweldy to fire, due to the superior design of our gears.

    I think we deserve a unique armor more than anyone else, and while I could propose plate armor with -1AP and many would like that, maybe we could have something more realistic and better, but I don't know what.

    As for the units, few changes, with all that I have mentioned above. Maybe some changes just to distance us from the heritage.

    King. You need more types of weapons. At least PW.

    Blacksmith. A promotion for T5. And a type of war platform, similar to the wheeled anvil but different from the static anvil, so they don't overlap.

    Seekers. I love it as it is but it's too much like slayers. I don't know how I'd do it, but it'll change for sure.

    Anvil. Maybe I could go in another slot or have unique rules, something like our version of Lamassu ID. What I'm clear about is that if he stays as a character, other than what I mentioned in the battle runes, I'd give him access to runic talismans.

    Engineer. Pretty much the same.

    Warriors and markmen. About the same, cheaper. Marksmen with access to all firearms, crossbow, handgun and pistol.

    Miners. They could move into Core with a large size or specific weapons.

    Grey beards. Unit that would have to work from 0. I have several ideas in my head.
    - Eliminate the book entry. Make it a 0-1 or 0-2 promotion for any unit. For example, Kings Guard gray bearded warriors or Rangers gray bearded. +1Of, +1Df and force set to 4.
    - the unit goes to Special. It becomes a special unit/character. For example the unit has Dis 10 and units at 6' benefit from their Dis and can reroll as if they were near the battle standard-bearer.
    - Similar to the previous option but instead of being a character unit, they are a character amplifier. The effects to general Dis or battle standard-bearer increase by 6' if they are inside this unit.
    Also, they might do something like help to repeat some rolls, something like, a unit at 6' of GB can repeat a single die per turn.
    I say this because it is well known that dwarves respect their elders and they look down on them if they see them not doing their best.

    KG and DW. Tough. The arrival of the new immortal IDs has left them in a horrible place. Maybe with a unique magic phase and better Grudges there is no need to improve them, but the comparisons are hateful. They need to live up to the immortals.

    Seekers and VS. Just like the character.

    HG. They look good. I'd leave them as they are, maybe put Swiftstride on +2Ag so they're a little more beary for whoever wants them that way.

    Helicopters. I'd leave them as they are. Maybe I'd put them on a kind of OUO bombing that stops them from marching, like they're dropping an oil tank on the enemy, which sticks and slides.

    Grudgebuster. Unique chassis, different weapon and locomotion options. One flying, one tank, or tunneling machine. Several weapons to choose from. I think Fnarr made a pretty good suggestion about this somewhere.

    WM. Same thing. Cheaper. More runes for each type.

    Rangers. They're good.

    Forge wardens. (I almost forgot xD) several options come to mind.
    - Aim 2+ always, S3 Ap0/S4 AP1, depending if they're shooting far or close, a little like the flamethrower that gets better if it's close.
    - Aim 2+ always, S4 Ap0, like most fire attacks.
    Other than that, let them look like their ID cousins in being able to march and fire or be light troops to have more mobility.
    I would also put in an alternate fire or rule that any hit single-base units must check for Dis or get stunned or something, representing that they are trying to take out the fire. But I also liked a proposal that if they shoot at an enemy that they've already shot at, the attack does more damage.

    I think that's it. Just one more thing... Plates for everyone and a wall of shields vs. special attacks!
  • If we think of making big changes in DH I would propose one thing:

    Sturdy makes GW being one-handed.

    Maybe at the cost of loosing S/AP here or there or Devastating Charge bonus.

    This will impact a lot:
    • KG having Shieldwall will sky-rocket with price.
    • For most units HW will become much weaker - maybe just increase in price of GW can fix it, but I doubt. Maybe HW should add +1 Off/Deff - making elite units much better.
    • GW+Shield will have no balancing problems.
    • Sky-rocket characters :(
    Why I would like it? Because we need something being signature of our army. Shieldwall is nice, but is not good enough.
  • I Don t like this GW thing.
    It is enough that a monstrous hero in warrior book has this.
    It is already to much that there is such an item in ID book.

    Perhaps give charging dwarfes with gw lightning reflexes instead of plus strength and so hitting at agi 3.

    Most of DH book is fine and there are already a lot or even to much (seekers) special rules.
    I am against this special rules bloat in new books.
    It's should be a rank and file game where the basic unit should matter not the amount of special rules. Even when they are super fluffy and background driven.
  • One thing I would say, not being a Dwarf player, is that when you are thinking of the LAB designs, effectively throw out the mechanics of what was and think about a brand new book.

    just saying that you want to change some points around etc is not really going to happen. Functionally, the only thing that will be similar is the aesthetics and feel of the army (guidelines permitting), everything else is probably going to change.
    Once a Highborn, always a Highborn.
  • Random ideas I've been collecting for the last year and a half. I understand trying to implement most of them at the same time would probably make the book as OTT as current ID, they are just fun concepts I talked with my friends and other players, or that I saw around the forum and I liked (mainly from Ilovepeanut). All of it shouts making DH more elite, and I don't know if that would be intended. Funnily enough half the ideas I gathered are really similar to what ID has got... So it could be problematic. With those ideas I had in mind to move away from MSU, plus the shooting or inclussion of shooting models is more restricted that nowadays. I try to make them more about Discipline, units that won't flee away from a combat, even if they are losing. I also aimed to remove Special Rules that were too complicated, or give them something based on Universal Rules instead, trying to go for an easier to understand and play against book.

    • Battle Runes: Make them work in a similar way as BH, in the sense 1 instance can be carried by a unit without being a Magical Banner. Seekers have no access to them.
    • Runesmith: Casting range atleast 18'. Lose Magic Resistance.
    • Rune of Resonance gone. Too complicated, and a way of deleting yet another special item that takes 8 paragraphs to be explained.
    • Rune of Resolve: Augment, One Turn. The target may perform a 6" Magical Move and gains QTF. Basically our weakest rune, this would also help with our shooting and not staying back.
    • Rune of Reckoning: Augment, One Turn. The target must reroll failed to-hit rolls with its Close Combat and Shooting Attacks. Another way to make DH magic sinergize better with the DH army, and not just with their CC part.
    • Add Attribute Spell: Augment, One Turn. Range X'. The bearer gains Magic Resistance (1). If the unit contains other instances of Magic Resistance, it increases those Magic Resistance values by 1 instead. So Aether Icon is our Attribute.
    • Making Rune of Mastery an inbuild feature being 0/3 uses per game, with a chance of going wrong (ala Dark Shards or Power Shrooms). I know it would be autoinclude, but might spicy up such a poor Magic Phase,adding a bit more tactical play to it.
    • Mithril Armor: Negates 1AP. Given to Characters, Greybeards, KingsGuard, Deepwatch and maybe Forge Wardens. Oh, and Warmachines.
    • Grudges: No Hatred (DH has access to rr to hit via magic). Friendly Units in base contact with grudged Enemy Units gain Frenzy, Fearless and Battlefocus. It feels like these rules resemble a hateful mindset for our stunties?
    • Shield Wall: When using a Shield, the model gains Aegis 6++ against all melee attacks coming from the front. No 5++ if getting charged, but also not restricted to close combat. Short and clear.
    • Yer comin’ with me!: Close Combat Attacks made by models with this Attack Attribute can never wound on worse than 4+. Models are always removed at initiative step 0. Short and Clear. Makes them better but look further because I partially removed a key rule on them.
    • Sturdy: The Devastating Charge needs to go. It's too good on STR4 models (so everything in the book but Clan Warriors and Marksmen), and it makes Great Weapons not as valuable. -1 to SNS is nice but could just be moved to another place to keep the rule short and clear. I'd probably give them something related to their Discipline and going the extra mile for the clan. EG. Discipline Test taken by Units X' close to Friendly Infantry Units are suspected to Minimized Roll.
    • The bigger they are… Removed. Swiftstride moved to Seekers Models Rules (they don't wear armor, and are literally willing to die in combat!)
    • WALL BANNER. Yup. IMO the Wall Banner fits waaaaaay better in the DH nature than ID one.
    • Axe Skilled Rune. Dominant. A weapon engraved with this Rune follows the rules for Great Weapons The bearer can use a Shield simultaneously with and gets Parry. Instead Rune of Craftsmanship. I mean, if someone gets to master the Great Weapon use is DH, not their Evil Hairy Cousins or a Doomy Lord.
    • Rune of Smashing. Dominant. To avoid too powerful combinations.
    • Rune of Destruction. Dominant. Idem.
    • Rune of Storms/Quake. One Use only. Lasts One Turn. If activated, enemy units across the board or in a certain area have to pass a March Test to do so.
    • Rune of Grounding. Not RunicSmith only. Opens for magicless playstyle.
    • Rune of Mining. Deploy a Single Ruins Terrain Piece, more than X' away from Enemy Units. Miners can choose to Arrive to the Battlefield from there. Miners are the Essence of the DH, they are about Mountains.
    • Standard of Wisdom: Removed.
    • Standard of Swiftness: Remove limitation 0-1. Cannot be taken by core. (Cannot be taken by Seekers aswell, as they cannot take an enchantment at all).
    • Runic Standard of Steadiness. One use only. May be activated at the start of a Player Turn. The Unit Gains +1 aim. (I was thinking between this, or ignores Hard Target/Cover). Would help immensely.

    • Engineer. Not a leader. Underground Expert: Miners can rerrol Ambush rolls. Harder to build MSU. He also gets a great sinergy with Miners, making them more reliable to our will.
    • King: Aura of Bravery: Units in Commanding Pressence of a King auto pass Fear Tests, but get the -1 to Discipline.
    • Seeker: Remove Grim Resolve. Add Holy Willing: Attacks made with this enchanted weapon become Divine Attacks and Magical Attacks, and failed to wound rolls must be rerolled (Affects only attacks made with Close Combat and Shooting Weapons that are not enchanted). Yup, that's basically Inbuilt Blessed Inscriptions. Not Working with Weapon Enchantments should keep it fair. And finally DH gets access to Divine Attacks.
    • Warthrone and Shieldbearers: Cannot be Stomped.
    • Greybeards: 0-X Units per Army.
    • Marksmen: Warriors Upgrade. The Model does not suffer from negative to-hit modifiers from a Stand and Shoot Charge Reaction. Throwing Weapons, Pistols now suffer from SNS penalty, so maybe they can go back to a logical price. Also Marksmen being basically Warriors with Ranged Weapons is a reality, so just merging them would save space and opening for the next.
    • Miners moved to core. 0-X Units per Army. Str3Ap0. Only Pistols as Ranged Weapon Option. Again, Miners are the ABC of the DH.
    • KingsGuard: Stubborn if in Commanding Pressence of the General or a King. Lose Bodyguard. They help with them being more autonomous.
    • Deepwatch: Stubborn if in Contact of a model with Fear. Lose Bodyguard. A brick, will hold Monsters and such. The true anvil unit, but only against certain enemies. Maybe I'm too naive thinking that + mithril armor + their improved shield wall being for all melee in front would finally make them be great?
    • Seekers: 0-2 Units per Army. 0-X Models per Army. Swiftstride included into Global Profile. Only Unbreakable with a Dragon Seeker Inside. That's it, no base Unbreakable Status. I think it's a fair tradeoff for changing their Yer Coming With Me rule. And could help at making better internal competition since they got quite a hit in their staying power while the others improved theirs?
    • Busters. Several exclusive upgrades to choose from : Forge Repeater and Fly, Improved Chasis (+1AS, +1Str and AP to Grinding and Impacts), War Platform that gives some sinergy to its unit, Underground Drill (Ambush like UD). Yeah, I was waaaay too high when thinking about a War Platform upgrade. And yet again, astonished when I saw the ID book brought to life something similar. So, there's a chance?
    • Copters don't count towards Clan Thunder, Throwing Weapons Units do.
    • Forge Wardens: Shots 2, March and Shoot, Always 3+ Aim, Range 12', QTF, str4ap1.
    • Copters and Busters count towards Engines of War. Capped at total of units and individual models, not points. So trying to limit MSU, Gunlines or Flying Circus.
    • Warmachines get Mithril Armor. Makes no sense for them to be on Heavy armor, they are the pride, the Magnus Opus of the Dwarven. Let's just say, FLUFF REASONS.

    Let me know what you think about my BROKEN Book! Do you think my intention to make the book easier or less complicated is achieved? Was I fair when giving and taking rules to the army? Or am I just too biased?
    Armies I play: :DH: :O&G: :OK: :SE_bw:
    My hobby's Blog

    The post was edited 7 times, last by Firthunands91 ().

  • Seekers are too good and have too many rules. YCWM, I don't see it as a nerf (they could hit to impacts now, or do 2 attacks with PW, or Str6Ap3 one). If you see other elites got way better rules in compensation, too.
    You have to take things away when giving new toys, you know. And Seekers are the unit that causes more complaints for the other players, in my experience.

    And think about Battlefocus Seekers that will attack no matter what!!
    Armies I play: :DH: :O&G: :OK: :SE_bw:
    My hobby's Blog

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Firthunands91 ().

  • That's why they carry Great Weapons with them! Make Great Weapons more of our identity!

    And again, you have to give something away guys! Those fellas would be getting so many cool things, possibility to rerrol ambush with Engineer, ambushing from Ruins, AND being core! How much would you end up paying if they kept their strength?
    Armies I play: :DH: :O&G: :OK: :SE_bw:
    My hobby's Blog

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Firthunands91 ().

  • There is one thing that has made me dream. Extrapolate the idea that seekers have different axes (PW and GW) in their seekers characters by making them carry 2 or 3 runic weapons and can exchange them for being a weapon master. As if in the course of his quest, he could put runes in the traditional axes he has always carried, specializing each one for an enemy.

    He would do the following:

    Seeker character doesn't have access to the regular runes, instead he has a "seeker relics" rule. Before attacking, he must decide which weapons he will use. He has 3 to choose from.

    1) lightning reflexes +3Ag and divine attacks

    2) ignore parry, +4At, +1Ag.

    3) +2S, +2AP, MW (2, against Large and Gigantic), -5AP.

    And because you also have Weapon master you can change them depending on your opponent. 1 is a HW with runes to fight against enemy champions. 2 is basically a PW with Grim resolve. 3 is a GW with Monster seeker.

    If you think about it, it's a multi-purpose knife but you can't put in any more runes. It's a bit like the Overlord ID keys but naked and no more equipment.
  • Taking away playstyles is imo the worst thing to happen to us. So id rather dont see too many ideas implemented from your list @Firthunands91. Sorry to say.

    Also the starting point that we have to throw away what we have and start from scratch bothers me @Masamune88. I mean, why should we. Keep what is cool, focus on what’s not, and excell on that! Miners are such a focal point to me.
  • No complete restart. Would propably end with a list of wet dreams as the ID book with totally unreasonable prices.

    Most things in current book are fine. And I also think that adding new things should be come hand in hand with taking away other things so that the overall powerlevel stays about the same.

    Miners in core would be fine, perhaps only without shooting weapons in core. No need to change the stats then. If you buy them with shooting weapons then they are special. And propably minimum unit size in core has to be higher than 10 to prevent multiple 10 man units in core for scoring only.
    (other reworked books already included such mechanics to make special units core, even when I think it should not be possible at all, but the gate was opened, so ne need to not implement it when it fits)

    Industrial mass production can´t compete with careful hand made production putting the soul of the smith into each piece, so of course there has to be better armor on the units and of course on artillery too than in ID book. Fluff reasons of course, no powercreep. :)
    Perhaps sparing out the "core" warriors, marksman and miners, they are the youngsters that have to earn the armor of the ancestors or have not crafted theirs till now.
  • Sander wrote:

    Taking away playstyles is imo the worst thing to happen to us. So id rather dont see too many ideas implemented from your list @Firthunands91. Sorry to say.

    Also the starting point that we have to throw away what we have and start from scratch bothers me @Masamune88. I mean, why should we. Keep what is cool, focus on what’s not, and excell on that! Miners are such a focal point to me.
    you misunderstand me ( or i communicated poorly) the book in LAB doesn't get thrown out in it's entirety as the concepts etc of the book that where evocative of the faction as well as fitting the fluff will be used to inform the new iteration.

    It will be dwarves still, and model invalidation is a key no no for the project, but just saying "ah well, seekers work well so we should just change the points" defeats the purpose of the LAB process. Each book will be completely rewritten from the ground up and each entry will function to fit its fluff (background based design)

    So I would suggest looking at the entries in your book, tagging a BG member or ACS and asking them to provide rough guidelines (if any) for the feel of units in the BG. with that you can brainstorm to your hearts content with a vision of what the unit should be.

    There may not be much in the way of BG, but with one dwarf book done, im betting there is something
    Once a Highborn, always a Highborn.