Final VS LAB Guidelines

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  • Final VS LAB Guidelines

    Friends, citizens, countrymen, lend me your ears! The gods have heard your pleas! The plans for the reclamation of our Empire have been redrawn and blessed. Behold these for your viewing pleasure and continued inspection upon the work during this epic process. I speak on behalf of the Senate and the people of Avras when I thank you for your passionate petitions. This was your opportunity to weigh in on the engineering of our Empire, the roles within our Republic, our ascension to reclaim Avras... and you succeeded splendidly.

    The votes have been cast and counted, and the final plans have been drawn. The time has come to put these into motion and start the rebuilding at once. The Dux commands it so... For the glory of the Swarm!

    Feel free to discuss the new Guidelines and how they may impact or generate the concepts and mechanics of the future book. These are the final guidelines for the LAB Team to follow and can be found here.
    Please leave your assassins at the door.
  • Nice! Some really good changes in there! :D

    Initial reaction below (sorry about the wall of text and please move the post if it should be in a different thread)


    Racial Design Notes:

    Make vermin units scale more with the size of the unit. Exponential increases of power with sizes. This should allow (some) ranked vermin units to fill roles beyond tarpits. Avoiding making them into true top-tier elite combat units, since that could risk counteract the wanted horde-themes.

    • I feel that every book should have a unit which the opponent is afraid of. It improves the game for both players. As such, if the opponent’s truly elite isn’t afraid of anything on our roster we have an issue. Numbers (size of unit) is probably the answer to this.


    Special Deployment:

    Other forms of special deployments are non-existent in this army. I.e. all special deployment must be clearly connected to tunneling.

    • can still scout but may have to “arrive” in our movement phase. Could be freed of distance rules perhaps?


    The Dux

    Overall I like the changes here. Not sure it needed to be supernal but that would be background driven I suspect.

    Statline should emphasize that the Dux is big but not very skilled, it should have better physical attributes (e.g. res, hp, str) and worse stats connected to skills (e.g. off, def, att). Use treefather ancient as inspiration

    • worth noting that Treefather Ancient is considered to be utterly useless in combat but otherwise decent caster. Please don’t go to this extreme of this design. The SE forum consider this unit to have missed the mark and be in need of fixing.


    Overall, all things combined, using the Dux should mean a sacrifice in terms of overall discipline for the army as a whole. The Dux should not be the optimal general.

    • feels like a knee-jerk against current design. Could be interesting to sacrifice use of certain characters/special rules (eg discipline bubble extending character) for Dux 18” bubble. Essentially meaning army can’t be as wide. Gameplay impact rather than straight -1 Dis.


    Due to the special design niche of the Dux in the VS army, it is important to point out that the design goal is to create a model which is neither an auto include nor invalidating other character choices in the VS army (see game wide guidelines).

    • internal balance. Our regular characters are supposed to be cheap so I would expect points to be a key differentiator here.


    Make sure that VS differs from EoS orders and parent/support units in meaningful ways. Cohorts should primarily be about discipline, and secondary about movement . It should not be about combat prowess.

    • I think everyone is aligned that we don’t want to be ratty EoS. If this means not doing orders at all then I don’t think anyone would be unhappy. I didn’t see a single post wanting orders in VS.

    C: Unreliable way of life

    • Really like the overall changes to this part.


    Risk: Overcharge guarantees that the unpredictability-drawback is suffered, in the form of lost HP on wielder and/or nearby vermin.

    • That’s not a risk then... I would be keen to have a slight part of that risk which has no impact, though that should be small. Eg hit a nearby unit and roll for hits rather than wounds.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Sleezesheep wrote:

    Like the document a lot, amazing work team. Hope the other LAB teams will do something similar in the future. My biggest (entirely unsubstantiated) concerns are with how the cohort and leadership structure can be implemented. If there is a way to keep it super simple then it will be awesome, but I can see it becoming easily convoluted.
    I think an easy way to handle it is to modify an existing VS rule.

    Make a rule that basically sums up to, only cohort leaders can benefit from inspiring presence, so now the cohort leader matters.

    Then give every other unit in the cohort broods courage, allowing it to use the LD of the cohort leader if in 6". Which pushes the idea of wanting the cohort to operate as a unit for ld purposes.

    You can then start making characters who do things like boost the broods courage range for a cohort it is joined to. Or a signal master who boosts the "inspiring presence" range by 6". Allow multiple in a unit but you roll a d6 per signal master, and on doubles the effect of boosted range is lost.

    You could even have characters whose only job is to boost the base ld of the general.

    I think the concept has some really cool implications. It also opens the door for interesting interactions with the Dux. Maybe the Dux prevents any of the signaling range boosts, because it interferes with the radio, or he's so scary no one is paying attention to the signals being sent. Or it just has a normal inspiring presence range, and must be the general, and by extent kills off any of the range boosting abilities.
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
  • I could absolutely see the Dux making the rest of the characters special rules not work as intended as they try to backstab and reduce it’s influence. Cohort leaders / champs would still work as they do what they’re told rather than have a political agenda.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • I like it a lot better than the first draft. It is great to see that all that feedback really mattered. However there is one point I still don't get 100%:

    "Make vermin units scale more with the size of the unit. Exponential increases of power with sizes. This should allow (some) ranked vermin units to fill roles beyond tarpits. Avoiding making them into true top-tier elite combat units, since that could risk counteract the wanted horde-themes."

    Why not turn a really big block of i.e. Vermin Guard into something that can go toe to toe with the top tier elite units in their price-range (a comparable unit should naturally be one with 30-40% Numbers of the VS-Unit)? Why would it go against the horde-theme? I think it would be the safest way to strengthen the horde-theme to give VS the possibility to use big blocks as a effective hammer and not just as an anvil.
  • I just looked through the guidelines quickly for now and I'll have a closer look later.
    But I wanted to thank all the team for their work on the VS book, it all seems very interesting and I think that these adjustments corrected the most glaring issues with the previous guidelines while also clarifying important points.
    Keep it up :thumbsup:

    On a side note... Shouldn't this thread be pinned ?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Trakritch ().

  • Morbidus wrote:

    I like it a lot better than the first draft. It is great to see that all that feedback really mattered. However there is one point I still don't get 100%:

    "Make vermin units scale more with the size of the unit. Exponential increases of power with sizes. This should allow (some) ranked vermin units to fill roles beyond tarpits. Avoiding making them into true top-tier elite combat units, since that could risk counteract the wanted horde-themes."

    Why not turn a really big block of i.e. Vermin Guard into something that can go toe to toe with the top tier elite units in their price-range (a comparable unit should naturally be one with 30-40% Numbers of the VS-Unit)? Why would it go against the horde-theme? I think it would be the safest way to strengthen the horde-theme to give VS the possibility to use big blocks as a effective hammer and not just as an anvil.
    I share your worry, but I feel like a latter guideline of attrition being a viable strategy of a VS “elite” horde block would be where there is a sweet spot for this.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Morbidus wrote:

    I like it a lot better than the first draft. It is great to see that all that feedback really mattered. However there is one point I still don't get 100%:

    "Make vermin units scale more with the size of the unit. Exponential increases of power with sizes. This should allow (some) ranked vermin units to fill roles beyond tarpits. Avoiding making them into true top-tier elite combat units, since that could risk counteract the wanted horde-themes."

    Why not turn a really big block of i.e. Vermin Guard into something that can go toe to toe with the top tier elite units in their price-range (a comparable unit should naturally be one with 30-40% Numbers of the VS-Unit)? Why would it go against the horde-theme? I think it would be the safest way to strengthen the horde-theme to give VS the possibility to use big blocks as a effective hammer and not just as an anvil.
    I think what the project is saying is a 700 point Vermin guard unit should be able to go toe to toe with other elite units by virtue of it's weaker stats/special rules (compared to true elite units) and greater number of bodies.

    If you just give vermin guard elite level stats and rules, then they will beat elites when at similar unit sizes, and will cost so much you won't take big units of them. Both of which go against that idea of the horde army.
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
  • Seems really cool! It's close to make me want to play rats. Especially the "Avrasis legionnaires parody" concept attracts me.

    Small question for RT. Does the part saying that the Duke may have access to divination (since supernal) means that he may have let's say thaumaturgy and no divination, or does the "may" means "in the case he has any magic, he must have divination"?