11 E.b. Charge Move

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  • 11 E.b. Charge Move

    “...The Charging unit is allowed to come within 0.5′′ of other units and Impassable Terrain as per the unit spacing rule.“

    This is saying my 5” wide unit of chaos knights can charge through a 5.1” gap, correct?

    Or is this saying my 5” wide unit can never get closer than .5” to any enemy unit or impassible terrain.. but when I charge I can come between .5”-1.0” of enemy units and impassible terrain since the unit spacing rule states that I must give a full 1 inch?

    The wording isn’t clear to me. My gaming group often debates and it’s time the ancient heads put this matter to rest.
    Friends don’t let friends play soberhammer.
  • Kronos wrote:

    “...The Charging unit is allowed to come within 0.5′′ of other units and Impassable Terrain as per the unit spacing rule.“

    This is saying my 5” wide unit of chaos knights can charge through a 5.1” gap, correct?

    We’ve always played it as this one. To me the “within 0.5 of other units” tells me I can be 0.1”- 0.4” away as opposed to any other time
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Kronos wrote:

    “...The Charging unit is allowed to come within 0.5′′ of other units and Impassable Terrain as per the unit spacing rule.“

    This is saying my 5” wide unit of chaos knights can charge through a 5.1” gap, correct?

    We’ve always played it as this one. To me the “within 0.5 of other units” tells me I can be 0.1”- 0.4” away as opposed to any other time

    Yeah this one. Remember the unit has to be in a legal position after the charge move though. In the case of charges the unit can remain within .5” of other unit/terrain but can only be in base contact with the unit they completed the charge against.

    For reference Pg 13 of the BRB para 4.c
  • Correct.

    In figures, this means that a 5" wide unit
    - can squeeze through a gap that is slightly wider than 5" during charge moves (and failed charge moves)
    - can squeeze through a gap that is 6" or wider during advance/march moves (due to the required 0.5" gaps on both sides)
    - can stay in a gap that is more than 7" wide at the end of any movement other than charge moves and failed charge moves (due to the required gaps of more than 1" on both sides)
  • Why is that the official ruling?

    The word “within” as applied to distances means “no further than.”

    If I told you that when you walk by me you can come within 5 feet of me that does not mean you should come inside that 5 foot radius, that means you should not breach that 5 foot radius.

    If the wording says the model may come within 0.5” of impassable/other units that means it cannot go beyond that distance.

    If it said 0.1” I would completely agree with you. Otherwise I don’t think the wording agrees with the intent on the rule.
  • Izzetmaster wrote:

    The word “within” as applied to distances means “no further than.”
    That interpretation is new to me.

    A couple of examples which may help me understand:

    Commanding presence has a range of 12". If you say a model is within commanding presence range of another model, this means that it is within 12" of that model, which in turn means that it is 12" away from that model or closer, doesn't it?

    If you say model A may not come within 10" of model B, this means that A has to stay away more than 10" from B, correct?
    Wouldn't saying "model A may come within 10" of model B" be the exact opposite? If so, wouldn't this imply that A is allowed move to 10" away from B and closer?
  • Izzetmaster wrote:

    Why is that the official ruling?

    The word “within” as applied to distances means “no further than.”

    If I told you that when you walk by me you can come within 5 feet of me that does not mean you should come inside that 5 foot radius, that means you should not breach that 5 foot radius.

    If the wording says the model may come within 0.5” of impassable/other units that means it cannot go beyond that distance.

    If it said 0.1” I would completely agree with you. Otherwise I don’t think the wording agrees with the intent on the rule.
    I can assure you “within” does mean “inside” it’s a basic English word. Inside .5” is permissible in the above circumstances. It’s not even confusing.
  • Eisenheinrich wrote:

    Izzetmaster wrote:

    The word “within” as applied to distances means “no further than.”
    That interpretation is new to me.
    A couple of examples which may help me understand:

    Commanding presence has a range of 12". If you say a model is within commanding presence range of another model, this means that it is within 12" of that model, which in turn means that it is 12" away from that model or closer, doesn't it?

    Emphatically Yes!



    If you say model A may not come within 10" of model B, this means that A has to stay away more than 10" from B, correct?


    Yes, I’m absolutely baffled as to how this could be interpreted any other way. :huh:



    Wouldn't saying "model A may come within 10" of model B" be the exact opposite? If so, wouldn't this imply that A is allowed move to 10" away from B and closer?
  • That is a messy way to describe this. The mentioned within 0.5'' should be removed since it does not indicate the correct distance. The 0.1'' seems to be the only clear measurement but this is not mentioned any where but does pop up in the clatification. Is it therefor not better to just indicate that during charge moves the unit has to keep atleast 0.1 away from other models except the one you are charging?
    Describe unit spacing 1 inch apart. Then while moving/ marching 0.5 and charging 0.1 would be alot better.

    Our friendsgroup has misplayed this for quite some time.
  • Nemeroth wrote:

    Izzetmaster wrote:

    Why is that the official ruling?

    The word “within” as applied to distances means “no further than.”

    If I told you that when you walk by me you can come within 5 feet of me that does not mean you should come inside that 5 foot radius, that means you should not breach that 5 foot radius.

    If the wording says the model may come within 0.5” of impassable/other units that means it cannot go beyond that distance.

    If it said 0.1” I would completely agree with you. Otherwise I don’t think the wording agrees with the intent on the rule.
    I can assure you “within” does mean “inside” it’s a basic English word. Inside .5” is permissible in the above circumstances. It’s not even confusing.
    In English the word has a definition which means exactly what I said. Your snark was absolutely uncalled for. You can google it if you want, lol.


    I appreciate everyone’s quick responses. I am still not sure I agree, but it is nice to see the discussion.
    In context, it makes sense that Commanding Presence is the definition that means “contained within.” Because it is an ability that has an aura that boosts units that are in that range.

    In the context of a boundary, which is what the charge rule is referring to, to me it is meaning you may not go beyond that distance.

    I will of course play it as the ancient ones here have ruled it, I just wanted my voice to be heard.
  • Izzetmaster wrote:

    If I told you that when you walk by me you can come within 5 feet of me that does not mean you should come inside that 5 foot radius, that means you should not breach that 5 foot radius.
    lol this actually made me laugh, sorry, and not because I’m making fun of you but because actually picturing this situation in real life is little funny. “I told them they can come inside my house, but they ignored me and came inside anyway X(

    If you don’t want me to, you would say “you can not come within 5 ft from me”
  • Izzetmaster wrote:

    Why is that the official ruling?
    Context?

    ---
    4.C Unit Spacing
    Under normal circumstances, all units must be separated from Impassable Terrain and from both friendly and enemyunits by more than 1″ (remember that distances between units are measured to and from their Unit Boundaries).

    Certain types of movement allow a unit to come within 1″ of other units or Impassable Terrain. The most commontypes of movement are:
    • During an Advance Move, a March Move, or a Swift Reform, units may come up to 0.5″ of these elements butmust be more than 1″ away at the end of the move (see figure 8).

    • During a Failed Charge Move or a Charge Move, units are allowed to come within 0.5″ of these elements,including base contact (they may however only move into base contact with an enemy unit that was the targetof the Charge).Once these units have moved within 1″ of these elements, they are allowed to remain there as long as they staywithin 1″. As soon as they move farther away, the usual restrictions regarding Unit Spacing apply again.
    ---

    Normal Circumstances
    Can't move within 1" of enemy units.

    During Certain Moves (Advance, March or Swift Reform)

    Can't move within 0.5" of enemy units while moving but can't end the move within 1" of enemy units.

    During Charge Moves (including failed charges)
    Can move within 0.5" of enemy units.

    Izzetmaster wrote:

    The word “within” as applied to distances means “no further than.”
    I think you've misread.

    From the google definition:
    1.inside (something).
    "the spread of fire within the building"
    2. not further off than (used with distances).

    "he lives within a few miles of Oxford"
  • https://www.wordreference.com/definition/within

    within wrote:

    with•in /wɪðˈɪn, wɪθ-/
    prep.
    1. in or into the interior of;
      inside:The noise came from within the house.
    2. in the limits of;
      not beyond:to live within one's income.
    3. in the field, sphere, or scope of:within the family; not within my power.

    adv.
    1. in or into an interior or inner part:They proceeded within.
    2. in the mind, heart, or soul;
      inwardly:listening to the voice within.

    Goblin Lunatic

    Translation - ES

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Arturiki ().

  • Izzetmaster wrote:

    Nemeroth wrote:

    Izzetmaster wrote:

    Why is that the official ruling?

    The word “within” as applied to distances means “no further than.”

    If I told you that when you walk by me you can come within 5 feet of me that does not mean you should come inside that 5 foot radius, that means you should not breach that 5 foot radius.

    If the wording says the model may come within 0.5” of impassable/other units that means it cannot go beyond that distance.

    If it said 0.1” I would completely agree with you. Otherwise I don’t think the wording agrees with the intent on the rule.
    I can assure you “within” does mean “inside” it’s a basic English word. Inside .5” is permissible in the above circumstances. It’s not even confusing.
    In English the word has a definition which means exactly what I said. Your snark was absolutely uncalled for. You can google it if you want, lol.

    I appreciate everyone’s quick responses. I am still not sure I agree, but it is nice to see the discussion.
    In context, it makes sense that Commanding Presence is the definition that means “contained within.” Because it is an ability that has an aura that boosts units that are in that range.

    In the context of a boundary, which is what the charge rule is referring to, to me it is meaning you may not go beyond that distance.

    I will of course play it as the ancient ones here have ruled it, I just wanted my voice to be heard.
    I’m not biting here even though I want to.

    Cambridge, Oxford, Google, Macmillan, Collins, dictionary.com and google all have it defined as “inside”. “Within“ means “inside” you can rail against it as much as you like but you can’t have your own facts. Sorry.

    it was explained in very accessible terms by a member of rules clarity, you chose to argue a ridiculous point so you get snark.
  • I'm off topic, but in a mood to correct tiny details...sorry in advance.

    Nemeroth wrote:


    Eisenheinrich wrote:

    If you say model A may not come within 10" of model B, this means that A has to stay away more than 10" from B, correct?

    Yes, I’m absolutely baffled as to how this could be interpreted any other way. :huh:

    Strictly speaking, there is a space between "within 10 inches" and "Stay away more than 10 inches"

    That would be precisely at the 10" mark, you are neither within 10" nor staying away more than 10".

    Not really what you are talking about, but i was compelled to correct this tiny oversight...
    For Lexicon-team Project Blog:
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  • Chronocide wrote:

    I'm off topic, but in a mood to correct tiny details...sorry in advance.

    Nemeroth wrote:

    Eisenheinrich wrote:

    If you say model A may not come within 10" of model B, this means that A has to stay away more than 10" from B, correct?

    Yes, I’m absolutely baffled as to how this could be interpreted any other way. :huh:

    Strictly speaking, there is a space between "within 10 inches" and "Stay away more than 10 inches"
    That would be precisely at the 10" mark, you are neither within 10" nor staying away more than 10".

    Not really what you are talking about, but i was compelled to correct this tiny oversight...
    It’s not an oversight it’s implicit, what matters is that you are not within 10”.
  • In reality if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, you have a 0% chance on being exactly at the 10" mark line, you'll be either an infinitesimal amount within or outside of it. Continuous spaces and all. I think we had that discussion with @Eru when cleaning up the BRB language for 2.0. What really happens is that under some arbitrary threshold you make a social contract with your opponent that it is reasonable to agree on one or the other.
    So there's nothing that the rules need to do in that specific edge case.
  • Nemeroth wrote:

    Chronocide wrote:

    I'm off topic, but ...sorry in advance.


    Not really what you are talking about

    It’s not an oversight it’s implicit, what matters is that you are not within 10”.
    Yeah, doesn't not need any change. It's not what you were talking about. I get that.

    The overly detail oriented within felt compelled to point it out, that's all.
    For Lexicon-team Project Blog:
    Updated lexicons

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