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  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    Although I realize I sound super angry with that post, that's not wholly my intent I don't mind if others have different tastes or play DH as gunline, I simply do not think it should be viable competitively. DH and its Warmachines should definitely be though, just not in the sit-back-and-wait style!

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    @Dain_II Oh, I'm sure there are Dwarf players who enjoy sitting in their corner of the table and shooting big warmachines while the opponent removes models until the game has ended! I'm fully aware of that. Your mistake is assuming that I only have the Dwarf players perspective in mind when designing, though. 9th Age is a 2-player game, and I always take into consideration- and try to the best of my ability- to design stuff that means an enjoyable experience for -both- players. Gunlines are high…

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    @Dain_II While I don't think your suggestions are bad, saying it doesn't "hold to canon" is incorrect. 9th Age is not Games Workshop, and Dwarves in 9th Age are not Games Workshop Dwarves (although they've certainly been inspired by GW, Tolkien and so on). Quote from Dain_II: “there's talk on this very forum of removing the Gunline playstyle from the DHs altogether rather than make changes needed to make it not only feasible but one of our best as it is supposed to be. ” No, it's not supposed to…

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    Awesome man, I appreciate it! As I said in my sneaky lil' edit, this isn't a showgame or a way for me to put down the man dwarf, but so I can learn how they can be played as a combat list =)

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    The way I've seen it played doesn't make me want to play it, but perhaps different people do it differently. If you (or @Guldur!) can play on UB2 vs my ID so I can gain a better understanding of how it's not a chaff-list pseudo-gunline but have actual combat potential, I'd genuinely be grateful. Because I do genuinely enjoy DH Combat MSU, I just don't see these lists doing it. Edit: There's no pressure to win, just to show me how they play so I can try it 'properly' for myself!

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    Quote from Fnarrr: “Agi 2 is gonna make it real hard to make combat MSU even remotely attractive! You need 15 lads at least (so they can take a few wounds and still break a rank), they need to have some sort of stat boost / equipment beyond S3 so they don't just autolose the fight...and that sort of thing already costs 300+ points, so its not really MSU. ” Back in the ol' days, DH MSU used to consist of 10-15 man units of King's Guard and Seekers who were Stubborn and would pin units in place fo…

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    Quote from Fnarrr: “Its amusing to me that the designer that hates dwarf MSU the most is making suggestions that would make that approach even easier ” I don't hate MSU, I'm a big fan of MSU! Common misconception. What I don't like is: 1. 10-man sacrifical warrior chaff units that can't fight (they should be 15) 2. Dwarf MSU that is about shooting and not fighting. I don't like seeing a Dwarf army that is 5x10 Dwarf Darts run about and not seek to commit anywhere.

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    It's not at all that easily achieved while also making sure things are balanced and don't just go crazy with special rules! Also, Core Tax.

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    Quote from Fnarrr: “Quote from Squigkikka: “There's a shocking concept, Fnarrr! Why not both? ” Because the minimal core allowance is what keeps dwarven holds anchored to actually including dwarfs Unless we decide that army lists containing just warmachines, hold guardians, and copters, is fine. But I thought this sort of back-seat approach where the dwarfs let their creations do the talking was more ID's shtick. I'm all for the dwarven core containing a wider variety of dwarf units, but to me t…

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    There's a shocking concept, Fnarrr! Why not both?

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    Quote from Fnarrr: “@Squigkikka the whole "warmachine in core" thing is based on retaining core tax, which we should be aiming to eliminate rather than dancing around it! Thumbs down from me I'm afraid ” You say that as if having a Warmachine in Core still is a bad thing, even if Core was changed around to be different, not just trash-versions of elites.

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    The reason the vermin catapult is priced at 170 is because it doesn't have a central hit or multiple wounds. Of course, for 170 points, who cares? The toxic hits are insane.

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    @Loghaire To show why someone might want a Warmachine in Core, I'll present you with two conundrums! Which one of the two following units would you pick? 15 King's Guard for 310? or 15 Greybeards w GW & Shields for 365? 15 Marksmen with GWs & Crossbows for 355? or 15 Rangers with GWs & Crossbows for 357? King's Guard and Ranger's, yeah? With the Warmachine in Core, it's no longer competing for points with other Elites! It's not about maxing out the WM cap (cuz it'd still count towards Barrage), …

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    @lionamra You realize Clan Warriors with Spears not ONLY have +1 Res and Armor, but also Shield Wall and Sturdy? And LD9? You don't get Parry with Spears, but you still get Shield Wall!

  • Thank your for the clarification, it is as I thought. I think what caused these different understanding of the rule is the "This counts towards the distance moved by the unit", which could- possibly- be understood that the characters movement + the units movement should be measured independently.

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    And no SnS penalties, which is neat. But the problem is if you want pure shooting efficiency, DH are terrible because they come packed with a bunch of other rules that are good but not directly tied to killing (Res 4, Dis 9, No SnS penalty etc).

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    I think having them be better shooters is probably the best solution. Or make both Crossbows and Handguns Accurate, and drop all other restrictions from Handguns. So they don't have crazy strong SnS, and so Rangers still are better- but not completely different.

  • @lionamra Onto the enemy character (just like a breath or stomp might). And my question: How do characters moving inside a unit work? Reading the rules, I thought they could move freely without hampering the units movement as long as they don't exceed their march value by measuring starting position and ending position- but another way of seeing I've been told is that the characters movement is in addition to the movement the unit does, and thus changing position in the unit becomes extremely li…

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    They should be able to be Runed, at least! The problem is that they cost differently, so you'd be overpaying for a Cannon quite a lot- although you could argue that the opportunity cost to adapt a Cannon into the matchup it's perfect in makes it worth it all the same.

  • Future DH wishlist

    Squigkikka - - Dwarven Holds (DH)

    Post

    Yeah, I agree. It irks me a little bit we did a lot to make sure DH WMs weren't oppressive in how strong they were, and then other factions bust out better gunlines- especially since we don't have killer magic to back it up with! The only warmachine that is remarkably killer and "unique" in its pure destructive power is the Organ Gun, and as you say, it's killed very quickly by focused shooting or magic. Even so, I don't think that buffing the huge killing power of DH Warmachine is the answer- b…