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  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from DaveRaven: “We choose to live free of the taxes or just let the entire system die. Start up the "X" Age with some new designers who seem to better understand what we want. ” Good luck with that! I truely believe everyone is free to design and play the game he enjoys most.

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from JimMorr: “Quote from tiny: “Quote from berti: “Now....if you skip greybeards for kings guard or deep watch...you still need to fill the core. This is the only reason greybeards are taken over the other units. They fill core, and after this, you have the 550-600 points per unit left to take some other stuff....copters, warmachines, seekers come in mind. ” This is exactly why I say being core has value and that value needs to be payed for.It maybe contradictual to @Squirrelloid logic bu…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from berti: “Now....if you skip greybeards for kings guard or deep watch...you still need to fill the core. This is the only reason greybeards are taken over the other units. They fill core, and after this, you have the 550-600 points per unit left to take some other stuff....copters, warmachines, seekers come in mind. ” This is exactly why I say being core has value and that value needs to be payed for. It maybe contradictual to @Squirrelloid logic but that's just how the min-core require…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from Theorox: “Quote from Theorox: “This is how it should be if we want core to have a role that makes sense: Core: Utility units. Generalists. The best bang for your buck, but not a lot of special abilities. Special: Auxiliaries, specialists and particularly elite CC troops. But right now it's like this: Core: Weak and often ineffectual. Special: Where all the power and utility is. ” This still applies, core tax or no core tax. Core units should be (competitive) generalists, other units s…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from JimMorr: “Question is: do the same people assign point values to units who develope units? I am a bit confused how rt and army design interact here. ” Not anymore. Here is the process for new books such as the WDG book: RT give design guidelines to ADT/CDS ADT with Input of the CDS and B&A team designs units and there role/function BLT finally (with input of the ADT) assigns points to the units. If point costs break the indented design there are iterations of redesign/re pointing betw…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    The argument is general in nature. For M10 redirector it just becomes particular obvious.

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from WhammeWhamme: “Also, request to not compare between AB's noted, but... seriously? No. Just no. They don't reveal the whole picture, but they should certainly not be disregarded entirely. Pricing needs to work internally and externally, because they're all within the same game and HBE spearmen *are* competing with KoE peasants - because players can drop one army for another. ” As pointed out before you can have the very same unit pointed very differently in two different armies. Compar…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from WhammeWhamme: “HBE Spearmen are basically no better than KoE peasants when going up against tough foes (T4-5 + WS5, enough wounds/armour that the difference of 2-3 wounds scored doesn't really matter), but cost more than twice as much. That's a pricing issue. ” Please generally don't compare unit pricing beyond ABs. For internal balance pricing first and for most has to work within an armybook. External balance is determand by the combinations and synergy effects the army as a whole c…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from Caledoriv: “Now just assume that the core tax for e.g. HBE would disappear, i.e. citizen spears would be just as point efficient as any other elite infantry unit. Would this result in people only playing citizen spears and refrain from playing sword masters or lion guard? Of course not! And the reason is very simple: While equally point efficient, the lion guard or sword masters have a higher damage output and thus can deal with many enemies faster than citizen spears can (with a trad…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from Theorox: “What a ridiculous statement. If points didn't exist, would a unit of 1 goblin be indeterminately powerful compared to, say, a unit of twenty billion hydras? You don't think there's an absolute difference in power between units at all? ” You are confusing in-game with in-world. My statement was: Quote from tiny: “Quote from Squirrelloid: “Absolute power is a price-independent claim. ” No its not ... there is no in-game power without points. ”

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from Sambazorcopter: “I for one believe that T9A can only benefit from re-evaluating all existing armybooks, flagging all 'double roles' and actively working to solve the problem - but not with core tax since it has way more side effects than say redesigning a unit would. ” Correct! But that's a task which will take far more time than what can be done with balance updates. We are currently redesigning the WDG book, but even there will likely be overlapping roles, simply because otherwise m…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from Squirrelloid: “WS4 S3 I5 with spears vs. WS6 S3 I6 with halberds Which of these is objectively more powerful in game, independent of price? ” In-Game not possible to be determined without points. Fluff wise you can say one is more powerful than the other but not game-balance wise. But pricing unites is inherently a balancing tool, not a fluff-story-telling tool.

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from Squirrelloid: “Absolute power is a price-independent claim. ” No its not ... there is no in-game power without points.

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    You have it backwards... If they are "cooler" and absolutely more powerful, than its because they are more price efficient. If they are not more price efficient, they are not more powerful and cooler, they simply become not-played compared to core units. We had many such examples in the past and I assume we still have such examples today, where core units overshadow the use of special unites simply because you can fill core requirements with a unit coming from core instead of using none-core poi…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from rolan: “So what we want is to get rid of this taxing practice. ” See my post above.

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Yes ... But the value is still not independent of the other unites in the army. Particular for books with strong overlapping roles for some core and special unites, the pricing to core units compared to the pricing of none-core-unites has to reflect that reducing cost for core untis can/will over shadow the use of the conflicting units from the none-core section. It simply an side effect of internal balance - assuming everything is costed correctly -, that in such cases "core-tax" is a thing. Th…

  • 2.0 without core tax, please

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Quote from KeyserSoze: “Quote from Sambazorcopter: “What really grinds my gears is how I've always thought that the points cost represented a model's value. So if a model has a certain statline, the point cost should reflect that statline, including any special rules. ” Hmmm that's not always the case. When pricing and designing units we have to take into account their place in the army, and the combos that army has access to. ” Exactly! The same unit, with same states can be costed very differe…

  • The Ninth Age is Awesome!

    tiny - - General Discussion

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    Thank you! Its posts and comments like yours that keeps the team going.

  • Quote from Herminard: “Tiny - how come you find me stubborn? I cannot recall my stubborn being tested yet? ” Don't know ... Its probably the northern "free spirit" I assume you have

  • Quote from jimbo81: “All I wanted was 8th ed with the woodies beaten back from stupid and the beasts boosted. Was that too much to ask? ” The short answer is: yes! The longer answer can be found here: the-ninth-age.com/news/index.p…-change-from-version-1-1/ And here: the-ninth-age.com/news/index.p…gal-explanations-for-t9a/