DL: public playtesting feedback

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    • Tallymen aren't the default, must have anvil anymore.

      However, in most cases, they are still the toughest anvil we have. Situationally Sirens and Slaughterers are better in select combats due to their higher Weapon Skill and cheaper cost compared to Tallymen.

      Horrors...are cheaper, and more numerous, which is the only real thing they have going for them as an anvil. I really haven't done the math for them, but at a glance, the combination of lower WS and lower T would make me suspect that they fair poorly compared to the other 3 choices. However, they do have shooting and magic going for them, so there's definitely a place, and like all our core units, they do have Instability and a Ward save, so they're a much better anvil than any other WS3 T3 unit in the game is.
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • They won't benefit from Parry though, which matters against a lot of troops in the game you'd want an anvil for.

      You're right though, you're looking at 320 for 40 basic Horrors vs. 400 for 30 Tallymen with Parry. So if points are an issue, the Horrors are a cheaper way to go. They will definitely be taking more casualties, which can be problematic if you're trying to win that combat and not just hold troops up.
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • Yeah, horrors won't kill much (aside from that abom take down and the occasional pink fire insanity), so they can be a threat in the right circumstances- which are few and far between.

      That said, 5 wide, 8 deep might be good for seriously tarpitting- something that has proven beyond useful in many games, to this point. Even when I make up poly lists, I just fail to see a reason to not include these guys; they tarpit well, the extra magic is nice, msu units with firebolts have a place, they're cheap and a the typical 5++... they're just... a good unit.
      Goblin, Daemon Legions and Empire of Sonnstahl Player and 9th Age Staffer
      Follow my journey through the world of 9th Age HERE
    • Oops..wrong topic for this discussion guys!

      In an attempt to get it back on topic, here's a little writeup of a game vs. KoE. Little late for playtesting, but games are games!

      2500 points, classic deployment, Breakthrough objective

      Lists:
      Daemon Prince w/ Lvl 3 Heavens, Soulbound Staff, Regen, True Chaos
      Daemon Prince w/ Mark of Lust, Plate, Iron Hide, Lash of Lust
      Harbinger w/ Palanquin, Halberd, Contamination
      30 Tallymen w/ Command, Icon of the Relentless Co.
      10 Horrors w/ Champ, St, Firebolts
      6 Clawed Fiends w/ Paired Weapons
      3 Crushers w/ Standard
      2x 5 Furies
      Daemon Engine

      His list was something like:

      Duke w/ Hippo, Virtue of Audacity, Sprout, Lucky Shield, Fleshrender
      Damsel w/ Lvl 3 Heavens, BWH, 4+ ward, MR(2)
      Damsel w/ Lvl 2 Heavens, Scroll
      BSB w/ Mithril Mail
      2x 40 Peasants w/ Full Command
      2x 10 Bowmen w/ skirmish
      2x 6 Aspirants
      6x Knights of the Quest w/ Scout etc.
      3 Peg Knights w/ Vanguard
      8 Grail Knights w/ FC, Banner of Speed
      Ballista

      I think I'm missing something from it.

      Anyways, on to the game:

      Setup has my Crushers and Engine on my left, with Fiends behind the Crushers, facing off against his Grails w/ Lvl3, his Duke, his Pegs, and one of his Aspirant units. In the center the Tallymen face off against the two Peasant units along with some Bowmen. On my right flank I have my Princes and my Horrors against his KotQ and other Aspirants and Bowmen. During the game, putting my Fiends behind the Engine (why'd I do that in the first place?) would come back to haunt me.

      Turn 1:

      Daemons get first turn, everything moves up a bit. Biggest highlight will be a Comet coming down at the end of his turn 2 magic phase, sited to hit his Grail Knights, Ballista, and an Aspirant unit
      KoE turn they move up a bit, ballista shoots my Lust prince but misses.

      Turn 2:

      Daemons get a huge magic phase (11 dice) but all I get out if it is a Lightning Bolt taking out the Duke's Lucky Shield, and the Duke getting Blizzarded. No combats, just gradually moving up to threaten everything.
      KoE decide to take the first action, with Grails and Duke charging the Engine, Pegs charging a unit of Furies in front of the Crushers, and KotQ charging my Furies, Aspirants charging my DP General on the other flank. Luckily for me, the Grails (needed an 8) and the Aspirants (need 7) both failed their charges, leaving the Duke to go into the Engine alone. In the magic phase the Comet comes crashing down, hitting the Grails, Aspirants, and Ballista just as intended. It killed no Aspirants (they made like 5 Wards), did one wound on the Ballista, and then after 11 hits killed 4 Grails (jackpot!). Ballista hit my Prince, wounded him, but luckily I passed my Regen. In combat the Duke and Engine both do a wound to each other, unfortunately the Duke wins by 1 and then the Engine takes 4 more wounds from Instability (ouch!) The Pegs wipe out their Furies, while the KotQ kill a single Fury and then lose two of their own! Drawn combat so they're stuck there.

      Turn 3:

      Big turn for Daemons. Lust DP charges the stuck KotQ, Tallymen charge some bowmen holding them up in the middle, and Crushers charge the Pegs who flee to safety behind the Grails, not that they needed to with my spectacular 1, 1, 3 charge roll. In the magic phase the Horrors miscast their Blue Fire and cause a wound to my DP general with the miscast (wtf!) Otherwise uneventful, Lightning Bolt does a couple more wounds to the 4W monstrousity that is the Equitaine Ballista. In combat the Duke and Engine stare at each other, while the Lust DP crushes the KotQ and the Tallymen kill the bowmen.
      KoE turn presents a dilemma...charge the Grails into the Engine and kill it, or charge the Crushers and kill them? He chooses Crushers, since the full Fiend unit is still waiting right behind the Engine. On the other flank, the Aspirants that failed their charge last turn get to charge the Horrors this turn. In combat the Duke finishes the Engine, while the Aspirants kill a few Horrors and Instability kills 2 more. The Grail Knights only manage 4 wounds to the Crushers, and end up taking 3 themselves.

      Turn 4:

      Fiends and Prince play keep away with the Duke. They move to face him, and the DP goes 1" behind them so he can't get charged by the Hippo. Lust DP charges the Aspirants in combat with the Horrors. Blizzard gets cast on the Grails. Lightning Bolt fails to hurt the Ballista (this thing is hard to kill!). In combat the Crushers kill the last Grail Knight but the Damsel passes her Break test. DP kills a few Aspirants, they break and Prince chases them down.
      Koe charge the Peasants with the BSB into the Tallymen's front. The Aspirants from the Grail Knight flank charge the Tallymen in the flank. In the magic phase the Tallymen get Blizzarded and the Damsel loses a wound to the miscast. In combat the Crushers crush the Damsel. The Tallymen kill a single Aspirant and Peasant, and the Harbinger does a wound to the BSB, and lose 5 in return. A couple more die to Instability. (I'm loving LD9 from the True Chaos Prince at this point)

      Turn 5:
      True Chaos Prince charges the flank of the Aspirants in the Tallymen combat. Blizzard gets cast on the Peasants. In combat the Prince kills a couple Aspirants, the Tallymen kill one more and 4 Peasants. The Harbinger brings down the BSB. I get something like +12 CR due to Contamination (I rolled 6s like it was my job). Both Aspirants and Peasants break (take that Steadfast on LD4!). Aspirants are run down but peasants escape. This also propels my Tallymen into objective territory.
      Koe Turn 5 is mainly rallying the troops, and getting the Duke the hell away from Dodge.

      Turn 6:
      My True Chaos Prince and Horrors hightail it towards the Duke. I figure a Lightning Bolt plus a max strength Blue Fire should take off his last wound, right? Well, right, until you roll snake eyes for magic. I try a minimum Blue Fire anyways and it is dispelled. Tallymen charge the peasants who fled and rallied, and break them in combat. This in turn breaks the Peasants next to them.
      KoE doesn't rally the peasants and the game ends.

      In the end, he killed the Engine, a unit of Furies, and got half the points of the Horrors.
      I killed everything but the Lvl 2 Damsel and her Bowmen, and half points for the Duke and a fleeing Peasant unit, plus 2 standards and the BSB.
      The Tallymen secured the Breakthrough objective for me, leading to a 20-0 victory.

      Basically, he lacked the endurance to deal with the Daemons. He could do wounds on the charge, but since nothing I had could break, if he wasn't wiping units out they were just going to grind it out and win. If my Engine had been in LD range of my general (and he might have been, I forgot about the 18" range all game) then it would have been even more one sided because I think the Engine would have eventually eaten the Duke. Heavens was a great Lore, even if its hard to cast. I think for sure I want my wizard to be level 4 for the extra spell though. Lust Prince was pretty ok in combat but never used his Lash or even wanted to, so maybe he can lose it for the points? In the future I also need to not play with my Fiends like I don't know what they do...putting the fastest unit in the army so that it spent the entire game sitting around doing nothing was not the best plan I had...they probably could have gone straight at anything in his army and done decently, if not won.
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • might not help much but can maybe be a good read.
      2500pts game against DH. We both agreed that it was generally balanced. But that the were some balancing issues.
      DL list.
      Lords 810pts
      Daemon Prince, Mark of true chaos, Lvl 4, Path of heavens, Soul­Bound Staff @435

      Daemon Prince, General, Mark of wrath, Plate Armour, Iron Hide, Horn of Damnation @375

      Heroes 150pts
      Harbringer of change, Lvl 2, Path of fire, Scrolls of the Eighth Pact @150

      Core 625pts
      12x horrors, standard @ 106

      25x Tallymen, Parry, Full command, War Standard @375

      11x Slaughterers, standard, onslaught @144

      Special 505Pts
      2x Plaguelings @75

      5x furies @70

      6x Clawed Fiends, Barbed claws @360

      Rare 405pts
      Daemon Engine, Hellish bombard @270

      Blaxing chariot @135

      Dh list
      Lords - 233pts
      =====
      Runic Master (125pts)[233pts]
      - Shield (+3pts)
      Runic Armour: Rune of Aegis (+15pts)
      Runic Arcana: Rune of Devouring (+35pts)
      Runic Talisman: Runes of Dragon's Breath (+35pts)
      Battle Runes[Spells]: Runes of Gleaming, Oaths, Reckoning, Resiliance (+20pts)

      Heroes - 87pts
      ======
      Engineer (65pts)[87pts]
      - Shield (+2pts)
      - Wyrm-Slayer Rocket (+20pts)
      Core - 625pts
      ====
      30x Greybeards (305pts)[490pts]
      - Great Weapons (+3ppm)
      - Throwing Weapons (+2ppm)
      - Full Command (+30pts)
      - Veteran Standard Bearer (+0pts)
      Magic Standard: Gleaming Icon (+5pts)

      10x Graybeards (85pts) [135pts]
      - Shiled (+1PPM)
      - Vanguard(+2PPM)
      - Throwing Weapons (+2ppm)
      - Standard (+10pts)

      Special - 1403pts
      =======
      19x Forge Wardens (285pts)[330pts]
      - Standard Bearer & Musician (+20pts)
      Magic Standard: Runic Banner of Swiftness (+25pts)
      15x Miners (150pts)[210pts]
      - Pistols (+2ppm)
      - Full Command (+30pts)
      2x Steamcopters (135pts)[145pts]
      - Attackcopters
      - Skirmish (+5ppm)
      2x Steamcopters (135pts)[145pts]
      - Attackcopters
      - Skirmish (+5ppm)
      Field Artillery (90pts)[155pts]
      - Catapault
      - Engineering Rune (+15pts)
      - Rune Crafted (+50pts)
      Field Artillery (100pts)[115pts]
      - Cannon
      - Engineering Rune (+15pts)
      21x Seekers (263pts) [303pts]
      -Vanguard (2ppm)
      -fullcom (30pts)
      Rare - 120pts
      ====
      Vengeance Seeker (60pts)[60pts]
      Vengeance Seeker (60pts)[60pts]

      Pre game thoughts.
      When i saw the amount of vanguarding blocks i felt. I NEED to go first. I got the chance to start deploying first and thought to dropped it all. We got outflanking and break the line.

      Deployment became from my side. Left flank Wrath Dp, Slaughterers, daemon engine.
      He countered with cannon, slayer and a 10man GB.
      i centered Tallymen and horrors. He centered katapult, both vengence seekers, engineer, 30GB and forge Wardens. Dropped the rest on right flank countered by gyros. I vanguard block his forge Wardens with Plaguelings.

      Turn Dl first then DH.

      Turn 1
      Move my Plaguelings towards Wardens and leavee flank for Gb. Who know i might hold for a later rear charge and move upp my flanks. Get burning ramparts of on slayers. He devours it. Shooting. Engine looses Catapault. Chariot does 1w to copters.
      Dh 30 gb charges flank of Plaguelings. Magic nothing goes of, he kills my chariot 6 tallymen on Shooting. Kills Plaguelings in combat

      Round 2
      Furies charges copters from back. Engine moves upp with tallymen. Wrath dp sets upp a charge on 10man GBs. Fiends run to the utmost flank and sets up charge against wardens. Magic get of a 1hit lightning bolt. Does 1 wound. No shooting. Plaguelings die he reform. His copters kill 2 i win he holds
      DH. He failes a swift reform on his wardens turn them towards my fiends and chaff them with vengence seeker. 30GB move 3 toward my tallymen short range. Moves up a vengence seeker to force me into large contact if my engine wants into the BGs. Seekers go toward middle. Spells he gets of reroll to hit. Stubborn, distracting on GBs...
      Shooting canon he hits and wounds my true DP he i save xD. Gbs do 6wounds to tallymen. I save some more on my DP from copters. Combat he wins i crumble and his copter turns toward my dp.
      Turn 3
      Fiends charge vengence seeker engine charge the other tallymen try to charge past GBs into wardens flank, they fail the 9 oh well. True DP charges copters, wrath dp charges 10GB. I move my Slaughterers into a flanking position. Magic. Fail comet rest is dispelled. Combat I win all my combats wrath DP overuns of board, engine run out of seekers arc. Dp holds his copter fles of table
      Dh he fail to swift reform wardens again. Goes into rank formation. Slayers turn towards engine miners pop out infront of wrath DPs return point. Magic he buffs GBs with distracting rest is dispelled. Shooting. Engineer does 2 wounds to engine. Gbs has charged tallymen. Copter failes his Shooting towards my true DP.

      Turn 4
      Engine fail a charge roll of 5 on his cannon snake eyes. Fiends charge wardens 2 wounds taken to sns. slaughterers charge flank of GBs. Magic i kill the last copter.
      Wardens hold and GBs outrun my slaughterers.
      Dwarfs gbs rally, some buffs from magic. Shooting they do another 2 wounds on engine and 3 wounds on wrath DP. Wardens break, fiends persue into catapult. Seekers move upp against wrath dp.
      Round 5 DL
      engine charge canon and makes it. Wrath DP dies to miners SNS. Move up True Dp against gbs. Magic does some wounds against seekers. Combat engine kills canon fail overun into miners. Overun 4 roll snake eyes. fiends kill catapult and overun into engineer.
      Dh
      Gbs fail charge 11 against dp. Seekers make charge into engine. Magic stubborn.
      Seekers kill engine fiends kill engineer and pivot so they have flank against gbs.

      Turn 6
      Dl charge rear with slaughterers and flank with fiends. Magic kills seekers until 4 left.
      Kill master smith and alot og gbs in combat. They hold.
      Dh combat they loose and get overun

      2357-1450 no one got objective
      15-5 win DL.

      Left on the table. Dl horrors, Harbringer, true DP, fiends, slaughterers

      Dh miners 4 seekers

      His thought about DL. engine auto include and a bit to tough. Fiends to cheap

      My thought on DH hewn out of the mountain and all their other rules made this shooting list stronger than my combat list in alot of combat aspects. Scroll of devour i simply hate this item. Begone with it. Seekers to cheap or to many dunno.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Kapten Kluns ().

    • New game time! 2500 DL vs. HBE, Classic deployment with the new Standards objective.

      I used my list in the DL List section (0, 1, 3, 6 for Heavens spells)

      vs.

      Highborn Elves with

      Archmage w/ Lvl 4 Alchemy, +1 to cast / dispel, ward (0, 1, 3, 6)
      Mage w/ lvl 2 Light, Scroll (0, 3)
      Mage w/ lvl 1 Light, extra spell (0, 6)

      35 Spears w/ FC, Heavy Armor
      10 Archers w/ Standard
      10 Seaguard w/ Ambush, Musician
      5 Reavers w/ Mus, bows
      5 Reavers w/ Mus, bows
      unit of 4 Reaver Chariots
      7 Knights of Ryma w/ Command, Dev Charge
      2x 15 Queensguard w/ Longbows
      2x RBTs w/ volley

      So a pretty shooty list, and to help out, he got a hill in his deployment zone. He did have to be cautious though, because I had Comet! He deployed around in an arc around his hill in the corner, with Knights and Chariots on the other flank. I set up the bulk of my army facing the hill, with my Crushers and a unit of Furies to hold up his mobile elements. Little irritating not getting either Lightning Spell, but maybe I could make lemonade.

      Turn 1 - Daemons dropped my last few units to get +3 to first turn, and (barely) won the roll off. The Daemons moved up, and the only thing of note was a Windblast on the central Bolt Thrower, giving both of them an a QG unit -1 BS.
      Elves mostly remained still, with the Cav and Chariots repositioning a bit, and Reavers coming up to block. With only a 1 and 2 rolled for dice I wasn't too worried, but then he managed to get off a boosted Transmutation on the Tallymen, with no chance of me dispelling it, killing 11 of them. Ouch. To follow it up, the Queensguard with -1 BS shoot my armored DP and manage to do 3 wounds after saves. The Bolt Throwers then proceed to finish him off. Not a great start to the game.

      Turn 2 - Lots of charges. Furies charge the central Bolt Thrower, Engine charges QG that just killed the Prince, Tallymen charge 1 reaver unit and Fiends charge the other. Furies move up to redirect the chariots. Engine fails its charge, and takes a wound from the S&S for its effort. Everything is shut down in the magic phase. Horrors actually put a wound on the other Bolt Thrower with their Firebolts. In combat the Tallymen wipe out their Reavers and reform to face the Spears again. Fiends wipe out their's and sit still. Furies only do 1 wound to the BT crew and they hold.
      Elves - Knights charge into the Crushers, Chariots charge the Furies. In the magic phase, I dispel Brightness into my Prince, but the Spear Elves get Quicksilver and Enchanted Blades cast on them. He gets Transmutation off on 3 dice but I saved dice to dispel it at least. His plan was to blast the Fiends, but his Light Wizard was about 1" shy of range. Shooting sees 3 wounds from the QG to the Engine, while the other QG deals 3 wounds to the Fiends. In combat, the Knights roll horribly and only do 3 wounds, while the Crushers kill 4 in return. The Furies kill the BT and turn to face the other, while the Chariots squish the Furies.

      Turn 3 - This time the Engine makes its charge against the QG, and the Furies go into the other Bolt Thrower. The Fiends make a long range charge against the Archer bunker holding his archmage. The horrors turn around to face the Seaguard that ambushed behind them. In magic, everything is dispelled except Blizzard on the Spear Elves, all according to my fiendish plan. The Horrors manage to kill 2 Seaguard between Firebolts and Hellfire. In combat, the Engine crushes 3 QG but they hold. The Crushers finish off the last of the Knights. The Fiends kill 8 Archers and run them off the board. This causes panic checks on the Spear Elves and a QG unit on the other side of the archers as well. Both units fail (the Spears thanks to the -1 LD from Blizzard!) and the Spears bounce through 4 units to exit off the side of the board. And the Furies kill the other BT.
      Elves - Not being too happy, the Chariots charge into the Crushers. The Seaguard charge the Horrors. The other QG unit fail to rally and run off the board. The nasty little Light mage that was out of range of the Fiends last turn ran a little closer. In the magic phase a regular Brightness from him deals 4 wounds to my General Prince and I fail all my saves. In combat the Chariots do 19 Impact hits to the Crushers and turns them into paste. The Engine perks up a bit and kills 6 QG and they flee off the board. He fails his restraint and chases after them. The Seaguard kill 5 horrors.

      Turn 4 - Yay for game swings. Things were looking bad on Turn 1, Great on Turn 2, back to bad at the end of Turn 3. My army is scattered, and that little wizard is a magic phase or two away from blasting the crap out of me. The Engine, Fiends, and Tallymen head towards the board center to try and get back in range of the Mage and Chariots. In combat the Seaguard kill off 5 more Horrors, leaving just the champion.
      Elves - Chariots move in to face off against my army. A bad magic phase sees my army safe, while the Seaguard finish off the last of the Horrors, with 4 of their own remaining.

      Turn 5 - Tallymen and Furies charge the chariots, they flee. Fiends move closer to the Mage to try and get him. Engine moves up to threaten the Seaguard.
      Elves - Chariots fail to rally (he's pretty upset with his Leadership tests at this point) and Mage keeps running away from the Fiends. Seaguard put a few shots into the Engine for no result. In the magic phase he gets 9 dice to try and blast the Fiends off the board. Does a boosted Brightness with 4 dice and Miscasts! 5 wounds onto the Fiends (I think I missed them taking some hits somewhere in here, but they're down to a single model with 2 wounds left after these 5 wounds), but the little bugger gets sucked into the Warp where he belongs.

      Turn 6 - Engine charges the Seaguard. He takes one wound from the S&S, then one wound from the trees they're hiding in, leaving him on a single wound now. In combat the Engine kills a single Seaguard but they hold.
      Elves - Chariots fail to rally but stay on the board. In combat the Seaguard fail to do the final wound before the Engine crushes them.

      Ended up being 2578 - 1710, a win for the Daemons, with the Daemons also getting the Secondary, for 16-4.
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • DL vs. Dwarves! Classic deployment and Hold Ground

      I didn't take notes for this one. Was very disheartening in the beginning..like most of my games lately, lol.

      His list was something like:

      Bunch of handgunners
      2 catapults
      Hold Guardians
      King on throne w/ elite dwarves
      infantry block

      Going into this I thought I would slaughter him. Basically straight shot across the board into combat and game over. Turns out, not so much.

      So, turn 1: He dropped everything so gets to go first. First shot is a catapult landing on my out of sight Daemon Prince, gets hit, rolls 1 for the distance, so a direct hit, followed by 6 to wound, me failing my save, and 4 wounds. Go-go 500 point swing on the first round of the first turn! Other catapult tries to hit my other prince but scatters.

      I move things forward, magic never does a thing in the game, for either of us. Highlights are tallymen and buffed hold guardians facing off for most of the game. My Engine takes 6 wounds again before getting into combat, but then eats about a dozen handgunners before dying. His elite dwarves never do anything because they keep getting troops fleeing through them from side to side, so he's stuck either moving foward, sitting still, or turning to face his other units. Was rather humorous, actually. In the end, I grind down the rest of his army, leaving just a unit of gunners and his elites alive. I got very, very lucky charging my melee prince and tallymen into his hold guardians..did 6 wounds myself, and made ~5 ward saves on hits to my prince and harbinger. He wiped out my Fiends between shooting and combat (did it a little wrong, though catapult did MW to every hit, not just center, but at least he managed to roll 3 1's on the MW rolls), and my Furies sacrificed themselves blocking his elites.

      Ended up being 1058 DL vs. 1120 DH, but the Tallymen held the center, making it a slight 13-7 DL victory.

      Considering my list keeps doing surprisingly ok for my Daemon Princes doing virtually nothing, makes me wonder if I shouldn't invest those 800 points somewhere else...
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • BatRep

      2500 DL (Change and pest vs. EoS)

      Thoughts:
      • Igniters are not awful, at all.. but maybe a tad overpriced for what they are.
      • Weaver is awful.
      • Tallymen are a blast to play- especially with my Harb setup (lvl 2, Blade of Grief, Horn of Damnation, BSB)... may give the unit a war banner, too. Just great.
      • Chariots are erratic as ever- but even when they have a tough game, they make an impact.
      • Blight Flies are pretty good... but, like most things we have, really need a Harb to feel fully functional.
      • Crushers are... strong on the charge... can't hold things up very well and, again, may need a Harb and upgrades to get full use. Blegh. Not sure about them, at this point.
      • Plaguelings are auto-inc for me. Love them.
      • Big casters feel almost pointless now for their insanely high cost. Harb spam for life.
      Goblin, Daemon Legions and Empire of Sonnstahl Player and 9th Age Staffer
      Follow my journey through the world of 9th Age HERE
    • jbusta wrote:

      So the +1 to cast and Charge Up wand haven't been working well on the Weaver?

      That's a shame. I was really hoping the changes might make him usable.

      Hopefully other folks have better luck.
      He had something like 9 or 10 attacks by the time he got into combat... but had to spend a couple of turns hiding from cannons/mortars. It's the same when Bolt Throwers and/or Poison is present.

      The Big Bird has great potential, but there's way, way too many hard and soft counters for a T6 W6 unit on a chariot base...that costs 605 points.

      It's a shame, because I love the model so much. But, from here out, Harb spam. I feel as though I would have won that (very, very tight) game had my list included just one more harb of pest and one more chariot. Darn!
      Goblin, Daemon Legions and Empire of Sonnstahl Player and 9th Age Staffer
      Follow my journey through the world of 9th Age HERE
    • Cannot agree more with Skargit. I tried the Weaver for 4 times now, but its simply overwhelming underwhelming.

      The Weaver still suck. It was my main GD on ~ 99% of my played tournaments but he is still way to overpriced. Reasons? There are many.

      1) Magic is not as powerful as it was. Nerfed Gateway, nerfed Warpfire, nerfed magic-phase itself. Ofc the last one does include every mage, but not every mage costs up to 670p.
      2) The new weapon is not as good as it reads. At first you need to "power it up", what can take a couple of rounds. Until then, you have to endure shooting and magic while hiding him from combats. If you lose wounds to shooting/magic, you even cant risk him with 10A in a noteable close combat. And then you get at it best 10A WS6 S6. That MAY sound nice, but not in comparsion to a Wrath with Eternal Blade (A8 S7/8 WS10 I9 and Hate).
      3) Alone for chosing him, you toss the 2 better hybrid's (Lust, Pestilence) and the WAY better melee (Wrath) aside. As the new magic is, harb-magic is way enough. There is no really need for a "non-melee" monster mage who can't do enough more for his extremly higher point cost.
      4) Bad combination of items. To stay alive and even try to "power-up" the new weapon, you need Shackles (40) or Veil (35p). Adding the weapon (40) you cant even take a proper arcane item nor the "horn of damnation" for supporting close combat.
      5) 1+ on casting rolls is not enough to make him interesting. Every other mage can buy a arcane item with +1 casting and dispel and is a better caster than he is. The "monster" stats are no reason favour him instead of any other lvl 3+ mage, because we cant hide him in (scoring!) units.


      When we look what has been done with the last patches, we see (in my opinion) that the DL ABC is trying to make units they dont know how to handle into hybrids. Thats not gona work. Why does the Tallymen got an defensiv and offensiv aspect? Why trying to give the MONSTER-MAGE of the DL a close-combat beast-weapon? The +1 casting rule seems a bit of a last-minute solution for me, because someone thought that a 4+ weapon may not be enough.

      My solution to the Weaver would be something like:

      Weaver of Magic: Once per game, ignore the effects of his first miscast. (In combination with the Scrolls, until the first miscast, he can try to force the upgraded versions of spells without risking his 670p as.s)

      AND / OR, depending how much you want to improve him, something even more as a possible trademark to the WEAVER of CHANGE.

      Unpredictable Change: The Weaver of Change may chose his path of magic at the start of the game and dont have to be noted on the army list.

      In addition to one of these rules, there have to be somewhat better items or upgrades for him like +1 on casting spells for 30p (instead of the free +1) or a slightly better "Firestorm" Multiple Shots (6) like the Igniters for a decent price.


      If the ABC wants to see the Weaver, you have to improve him in his magic, not in his melee strenght. Units you can savely attack with him you can also deal with your 5A. And everything else you woudnt want to attack even with 10.

      Im going to a tournament this sunday in austria and wanted to use the weaver until the last patch came because i really thought you would patch him useable. But as he is right now, he is not worth his points.
    • DL vs VC 2400 points.
      We are both intermediate players, with little experience with DL and VC respectively.
      No Comp.
      In the end DL won it, by tabling VS in turn 5.

      DL list
      Lords
      Weaver Of Change 540 point.
      Power Vortex 35, Aether Blade 40, Veil of Shadows 35 110
      Total 650
      Heroes
      Harbinger of Pestilence (95) on a fly (40), Dissolving Touch (30), Black Orb (15), Bloated Putrefaction (40)
      Total 220
      Core
      20 Horrors w. Full Command far seeing and firebolts 310
      19 Horrors w. full command, far seeing and firebolts 299
      Total 609
      Special
      3 Sky Serpents 135
      3 Sky Serpents 135
      3 Crusher Cavalry with Banner,(10) 170
      2 Clawed Fiends with Paired weapons (10) 110
      Total 550
      Rare
      5 Blight Flies (310) with Full Command (30), Banner of Speed (25)
      Total 365


      VC list

      Vampire Count205
      lvl 390
      Hour of the wolf20
      Karstein25
      Tullius Teeth50
      Armour of destiny50
      Halberd15

      Barrow Guards34 305
      Halberds68
      Full Command30
      Banner of barrows25

      Vampire Coutier75
      BSB25
      Karstein10
      Great weapon10
      Eye of Setesh15
      Mithril mail25
      lvl 130

      Ghouls34 305
      Full Command30

      Necromancer Lord lvl 3170
      Wand of Stability15
      Cadavar wagon50
      Endless horde10
      Pyre15

      Zombie20 55
      Musc and Standard20

      Zombie20 55
      Musc and Standard20

      Zombie20 55
      Musc and Standard20

      Dire wolfes5 40

      Vampire spawn3 120
      Vampire spawn3 120

      Dark Coach190
      Stubborn30



      Quick summary:

      I wont do a detailed turn by turn, but quick summary and the run though my thoughts on the DL units:

      Turn 1 VC pushes up aggressively and I see a change to charge the Ghouls with both Flies and Big Bird. Sadly the Bird fails but the flies do very well killing the BSB and even though he rolled like a champ only 2 flies die.

      Turn 2 was all about positioning and I swept behind with my fast stuff, while he got ready to multi charge the flies should the Ghouls die.

      Turn 3 his Barrow Guard with Lord charge into the flies and insanely my Harbinger puts the two final wounds to kill of his lord, while Pink Fire (SO good) svings the Combat Res. massively in favour of DL.

      Turn 4 VC Everything swings in from behind and clean up basically for the DL with flank and rear charges everywhere.

      The Units:

      Big Bird: He did reasonably well even with the -1 cast mobile and failing to important charges. Change feels really subpar but with the rerolling 1s and +1S from power Vortex he manged to do allright. Pink Fire is beastly and if I ever manage to get two of on a unit in CC, that's all she wrote. Hitting 11 to cast it on someone else is a bit high, but still worth it. I used the horror spell first and once he dispelled that, Big Bird cast it. Both times I actually got it of, it was devastating for my opp.

      My opponent had zero shooting which made it possible to move him out and about.
      Aether wand might not be worth it, he ended on 9 attacks, but by that time the important battles were done. I am still not convinced, but will try him in the next couple of games.
      My opponent thought he did well but not 650 points worth of well.

      Fly unit: I am very impressed! with The harbinger in there to handle challenges and such they held up against 40 ghouls, and later against Barrow Guards + lord before dying to a combined Vampire Spawn + Dark Coach charge. VERY impressed with theese guys.
      Only thing I am not sure of is the Dissolving Touch, S3 is very weak but will be better against Knights and the like, so I will keep it in there for now.

      Horrors: Spending 3/m on far seeing and firebolts is just.... way to many points. But they provide a certain amount of board control. He was worried about moving his vampire spawn in because of all the shots, and the shooting didn't make back its points, they did whittle down a couple of units, and the board control alone might be worth it. They get reelection as well, but are on the fence.

      Sky Serpents: These are a must if I bring Big Bird, I have to take out the enemy artillery and I think Sky Serpent are the best choice for this. After circling around they helped with rear charges, and I think I have to keep them as long as I have a big guy in the list. Decent but no more, will hopefully shine against actual artillery.

      Clawed Fiends: Pretty much same as a sky serpents. Will be more fun against elven archers or EoS handgunners (I hope). I might change them for Pestilence Beasts to serve as mini anvil that keep stuff in place for flank/rear charges from Serpents and Crushers.

      Crushers: If they didn't score they would be out in favour of chaff but they do, and they stay.


      Summary:

      Fun list to play with strong maneuverability but a lot of questions unanswered so will try a couple more games before deciding anything.

      /Jacob

      Ps. posted this in DL list building thread as well, for further discussions :)

      The post was edited 3 times, last by jacobkjellerup: I can't see the VC list for some reason, trying to fix it :) ().

    • Going to play the following list for 2 games this evening. Enemy unknown atm:

      Courtesan of Lust, Level 4 Lust, Lash of Lust, Veil of Shadows, Skull of Cacophrax, Dance of Death
      Harbringer of Lust, Steed of Lust, Barbed Claws, Lash of Lust
      Harbringer of Lust, Steed of Lust, Barbed Claws, Lash of Lust
      Harbringer of Lust, Steed of Lust, Barbed Claws, Lash of Lust
      25 Tallymen CSM + Gleaming Icon
      20 Tallymen CSM
      4 Clawed Fiends, Paired Weapons
      Daemon Engine, Mark of Lust, Hellish Reaper, Paired Weapons
      Shrine of Temptation, Aura of Ecstacy, Barbed Claws, Lash of Lust


      Since im visiting another tournament in austria, im going to give a few build's a chance until i go back to my 8th edition list.

      If you want to know why no Sirens and go for a mono-lust list. They suck. As easy as it is.
      For the Tallymen, even without Regen, i hope overpriced Parry and their T4 are enough, while Poison is always a treat for high T models. Also i decided to go without BSB, simply because i dont want to watch out for him, nor spending points for another harbringer. Since i had to play for years without dispel scroll, i dont think it will be much of a gamebreaker for us - of course i could be wrong, but the 5t spell is important that i can be as sure as possible, to get both "Random Movement" spells.