Pinned Guide on how to convince "doubters"

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  • Any system that scales custom sizes will work great to bring in new blood.

    Trying to push a list up in points is always a harder game than paring down.

    (As an aside, I'll be playing a new DH opponent this Friday who is from Spain and there is ANOTHER, also Spanish, coming soon who has over 5K DH models)

    Bloody DH ABC, look what you have done!
  • Herminard wrote:

    playing a soft list with a smile while being easy on the tap-backs and offering advice when they seem in doubt
    I think this is most important. Go easy on beginners. Both in terms of size of the game, but also in the way you play against them. Allow them to pull off some neat trick or point it out to them, so they see how awesome it can be.
  • There Is No Spoon wrote:

    Any system that scales custom sizes will work great to bring in new blood.

    Trying to push a list up in points is always a harder game than paring down.

    (As an aside, I'll be playing a new DH opponent this Friday who is from Spain and there is ANOTHER, also Spanish, coming soon who has over 5K DH models)

    Bloody DH ABC, look what you have done!

    Nah, Dwarves have always been big 'round these parts.

    A statement that makes for quite an interesting mental picture now that I read it again :D
  • Draecarion wrote:

    I have noticed several people mentioning that they have problems convincing others
    Strange...
    Suddenly I have sort of feeling that the title of the thread

    Guide on how to convince "doubters"

    took a new meaning thanks to Draecarion new avatar.

    Social Media Team

    UN Coordinator, aka UNSG

    - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
  • How to convince player ?

    Keep 9th age core rules as near as you can to the 8th edition

    Casual player I know just tell 9th made the game too reliable and less fun as some rules are gone

    I also heard from some player they won't play 9th because their army had less new unit and option compared to other

    It s also what I heard from people I play with, just think what you want about it I also agree with some. But I see lots of player starting non game workshop relied games... To keep those player you should listen to them and not make a game mostly designed for tournament that the way they see the 9th age
  • Vanhel wrote:

    Keep 9th age core rules as near as you can to the 8th edition
    Nope. The 9th Age rules are already far superior.

    Vanhel wrote:

    Casual player I know just tell 9th made the game too reliable and less fun as some rules are gone
    There is going to be a beginner's rule set which currently being developed. People who want a very unreliable game should go somewhere else (don't know what they expect here .... pretty much everything is still based on D6 rolls).

    Vanhel wrote:

    I also heard from some player they won't play 9th because their army had less new unit and option compared to other
    Unfortunately we can't please everyone. But the factions will be developed continuously.

    Vanhel wrote:

    and not make a game mostly designed for tournament that the way they see the 9th age
    The tournaments are (among other things) used for balancing. But they are not the only things that influence this game. There is also the developing background and history of the world and capturing the "feel" of a faction is also very important. Version 1.0 is the baseline, so to speak, upon which we can build and expand now (carefully).

    Please don't view this as directed against you, it's not. I know you are only conveying information ;)
    It would be pointless to try to please everybody and we won't. Complex R&F simply isn't for everyone.
  • Draecarion wrote:

    Can't please everyone and personally I don't care.
    This reply might not be the best way to convince dounbters...

    May I suggest to keep the attitude positive? It could become:

    Vanhel wrote:

    I also heard from some player they won't play 9th because their army had less new unit and option compared to other
    The introduction of new options was not the priority of the first version of T9A. If some armies got more, it could be because they had been in the need of more units or options.
    Now, the good point: it is possible to log in the website, and to ask if there is a reason for such different treatment. It is even possible to uggest a fix! Sure, there are so many factors needed to balance the game and so many people having different ideas that such call is far from guaranteed to get positive result. But at least, the possibility exists, contrary to every other game!

    Social Media Team

    UN Coordinator, aka UNSG

    - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
  • Calisson wrote:

    The introduction of new options was not the priority of the first version of T9A. If some armies got more, it could be because they had been in the need of more units or options.
    Now, the good point: it is possible to log in the website, and to ask if there is a reason for such different treatment. It is even possible to uggest a fix! Sure, there are so many factors needed to balance the game and so many people having different ideas that such call is far from guaranteed to get positive result. But at least, the possibility exists, contrary to every other game!
    That's why you are head of social media :P
  • Calisson wrote:

    Now, the good point: it is possible to log in the website, and to ask if there is a reason for such different treatment. It is even possible to uggest a fix! Sure, there are so many factors needed to balance the game and so many people having different ideas that such call is far from guaranteed to get positive result. But at least, the possibility exists, contrary to every other game!
    I played warhammer for more than 25 years I saw the evolution of armies and the game with more and more rules, army more and more reliable, psychology getting nerfed, flag allowing reroll to anyone... Gw answered to their customer but created a monster, they had to make a reset with aos.

    So some of my opponent were glad having some more stuff than I do with some army of mine, so I don't feel much difference because with gw some armies always get much love as other through editions.

    The situation is better but if some armies don't get improvement I will leave to other game (kow i.e.) as I am not 100% convinced. The community should be more grown up and not forget that 8th was unbalanced/unfair.
    I.e. As some player previously started elves and/or daemon army just because they were awesome I had 80% of those armies in the last tournament I organized in 8th : How to return balanced game as they were addicted to a kind of god mode...
    9th should be a rehab for them
  • Vanhel wrote:

    The situation is better but if some armies don't get improvement I will leave to other game (kow i.e.) as I am not 100% convinced
    I would say you are completely free to play whatever game you would like to play. The point is to have fun. Unfortunately, it is impossible to please every single person on the forum. We have had members say that if the game does not get less random, they will leave. We have had members say that if it does not get more random, they will leave. Likewise, we have had members say that if they don't get more options they will quit, while others say the game is too complicated already and if it is not simplified, they will quit and no new people will join the community.

    We try to put out the best game we can. But all the veiled threats we receive are simply not helpful (e.g., you better do what I say or I will quit and your game will fail). Look, no one wants to force anyone to play a game they don't want to play. We are here to simply have fun and play a game. We hope you enjoy it, but if not, that's ok, really. We are just happy that you tried it out. We are also happy to receive feedback about how you personally think it can improve.

    One thing I can say about this game though, is that you can talk directly to the game designers and they will listen. There are constraints they work under, and the first was a severe time constraint to finish the product for Version 1.0. This limited what they were able to do initially. But now that Version 1.0 is out, there will be more time to elicit specific input from the community as to what they really want to see with each army.

    Will this approach satisfy everyone? No. But will be make the game better for the community at large? Yes. I hope you enjoy the game and if you do, tell others to give it a try. Thanks for joining the community.

    Assist. Head of Legal Team

  • Well, I didn't mean to kill this topic seeing the wasteland of posts since my last.

    The best way that I've dealt with dealing with doubters is to get them to play a game with you. Don't be overly precise on the everything, I call it the "Don't Be A D*ck Approach", and let them see how fun the game is. Help them understand the differences from what they previously knew. Discuss strategy. Have a beer. Roll some dice.

    I play to have fun. If I win (and I'm going to try hard to win) that's awesome. But if I lose, I still can have a great time, especially those really bloody games that swing back and forth.

    On the conceptual front, you can tell them that this game was made by people that play the game. They did not want to see a wonderful community die, so they put T9A together. They don't sell models, so the game is really well balanced. Is it perfect? No. But it will continue to get better because the community that actually plays the game are the ones adjusting it.

    Assist. Head of Legal Team

  • Newbie of the game here, newbie of the forum, too.

    So I thought this one would be the best topic to write my first message on the board, being an "half converted" and "half doubter".

    I've heard a lot of the ninth and I'm still not familiar with the rules. I've been, let's say, "converted" by the group I play FrostGrave with, and at the same time by the "Shape the world of t9a" announcement that made me curious about restarting writing fantasy texts on my own.

    I was doubtful and critical, and in some ways still I'm, but I generally try to be cooperative and creative, so I'll take the chance to help giving a glimpse on how and why people are generally "against" and some personal suggestion on how to manage such an hostility.

    I strongly believe we should always apply some cultural relativism when it comes to individual choices. I mean: there will be always people looking at a specific point as a weakness, even if you look at the same point and you know it to be a strong-point.

    Reasoning is not always the solution: you can explain whatever you want and through whatever language you prefer, but people won't listen.

    They do not because of different reasons. The first one, however, it's because they feel attacked: you are saying that their preferred game is outdated, which intrinsically means to them they are outdated.

    So, first point: you should never approach a newbie with a "my game is better than your" attitude. Always try to use a more professional one, the so called "win-win" approach: "you have fun with a game, we know it. I've fun with another game, you don't know it. Give me the chance to show my game, so you'll have two games to have fun with".

    People is growing sick of a sectarian war between games. WHFB, AoS, T9A, KOW, etc. etc.. As far as I know, forum and communities are literally being tear apart by such a war.

    But this is an hobby. Not a religion (which is the reason bringing another suggestion: try to avoid words such as "convert". Words are intrinsically important).

    And an hobby should aggregate people, rather than the contrary. Always focus on your objective: to make people love t9a. You should not care if they love other games. If you want people to "prefer" t9a to other games, you are simply going to fail 75% of the times.

    Another point is the "community based- all for free project", which brings serveral sub-point.

    - community based projects generally fail on the long distance. This is, just to say, one of the point I'm worried about. My experience says often in such communities several wars between strong egos and different cultural positions can arise with such a power that the entire community can fall. This doesn't happen in companies because there's - let's say - a "contract-related" relation among the different "parts". But, in the end, you cannot answer reasoning to such a criticism, it will prove a never-ending discussion. You can only trust the leadership (the executive board). Which means the only possible answers are "t9a will prove it can last" and "time shall tell". And of course: "Perhaps it will fall in the next 10 years. By the way, meanwhile, we can wage war on my 28mm battlefield!"

    - it's all for free now, but when they will know they can make money out of it, they will sell it. I personally don't see the point here. I've heard a lot of time such a criticism, and I perfectly understand it: people love things for free, and they want them to remain for free, especially if they partecipated in the creative process (and the t9a community feel to be part of the t9a concept). So, many people, having similar experiences, just defend themselves by avoid joining. And since they instinctively like the project and they fear to be "disappointed in the future", they avoid the project and show violent criticism on it. I understand them, but on the other hand I don't see the point: if the community give birth to a good product, there's nothing bad in doing some money from it (as far as the money help the project to grow).

    Then:

    - it's all about the rules and competitive play. We all know that the board is reassuring everyone about the narrative play and the (original) background on the way. But objectively, the first impression you have when you enter the board is that 90% of it is about rules, while there's a small, very small, background section which is probably the less active. I think the point here is the paradox of the creation of fantasy wargaming: it was created from the RPGs, not from Historical Wargaming. People, or, a lot of fantasy wargamers need "identification" with their troops and heroes and armies. Which is something you can give only with a strong background. At today, many of them see in the t9a just a "WHFB thing with changed names". I can understand them. Here, the only possible answer is: "every good project needs time. To create a world made of races and nations needs a lot of time. Meanwhile, let's play and partecipate in the community and the background section!".


    Just my two cents, of course. Hope this to be useful.

    Meanwhile, be patient with my english :).

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    The post was edited 2 times, last by VisconteDimezzato ().

  • @VisconteDimezzato
    Wow, this is one of the most impressive first posts I've ever seen :thumbup:

    Welcome to the community! Constructive criticism is always welcome. Make yourself familiar with the forum and should you have any questions you can also send me a PM if you want :) (I only have that intimidating avatar because I'm a Global Moderator).

    VisconteDimezzato wrote:

    People is growing sick of a sectarian war between games. WHFB, AoS, T9A, KOW, etc. etc.. As far as I know, forum and communities are literally being tear apart by such a war.

    But this is an hobby. Not a religion (which is the reason bringing another suggestion: try to avoid words such as "convert". Words are intrinsically important).

    And an hobby should aggregate people, rather than the contrary. Always focus on your objective: to make people love t9a. You should not care if they love other games. If you want people to "prefer" t9a to other games, you are simply going to fail 75% of the times.
    Yes, exactly. It doesn't matter if other people also play other games. The current systems aren't mutually exclusive and this is something I try to promote personally. Also wanna try out Silver Tower as soon as I can find the time.

    VisconteDimezzato wrote:

    community based projects generally fail on the long distance.
    The whole structure is now set up in a way that makes it actually more sustainable than a commercial company. There are also redundancies for the Executive Board in place in the form of the Advisory Board, which also get consulted on decisions. The system has a lot of fail saves in place. And open source projects don't always fail in the long run. Look at Linux: Microsoft now implemented Linux support in Windows 10. A few years ago they still called it a "cancer" :P

    VisconteDimezzato wrote:

    it's all for free now, but when they will know they can make money out of it, they will sell it.
    That's never going to happen. This will remain a non-profit project and nothing will change that. Not being dependent on sales is actually a strength, because it allows us to focus on rules and background and we don't get in trouble if miniatures don't sell.

    VisconteDimezzato wrote:

    t's all about the rules and competitive play. We all know that the board is reassuring everyone about the narrative play and the (original) background on the way. But objectively, the first impression you have when you enter the board is that 90% of it is about rules, while there's a small, very small, background section which is probably the less active.
    That's only because the background hasn't been released yet. There are lots of avid "fluff" players here, who can't wait to get their hands on the new background (myself included ;) ).
    For a new game, the first thing you need are the rules. The background and story take a lot longer to create, unfortunately (one complete army book every ~3 months was the estimate), but we will get there.
  • @VisconteDimezzato
    The moment we realize T9A Team is making money out of this it is very probable we will pull out our support and have them send prizes to their tournaments instead, the main reason for Shieldwolf Miniatures supporting these people is because we like what they set out to do and we know they can use all the help they can get.
    We are however more than convinced that T9A turning into a for-profit organization is never going to happen so we will be happy to support their passion by assisting them for many years to come. We are also looking forward to the day someone else from the manufacturers will also want to bear some of this responsibility but until then we have decided to carry it out on our own.
  • Complimenti @VisconteDimezzato per non solo una impressionante prima contribuzione, ma soprattutto per le idee postate. Per di piu, il tuo inglese mi sembra perfetto.

    I predict you a brilliant future in T9A, as the ideas you express are fully in line with the direction the project intends to develop:

    - we complement other games, we do not compete against them: I do not know any other game which website opens up space to discuss the merits of other games, be it fan-based (homebrew) or for-profit games. If the policy changes in the future, that would be only for greater win/win cooperation, all for the sake of the community of players.

    - community based: already more than any other game, but still not enough. We are looking about how to involve more the community, and to make it feel more home here. Also, we are perpetually in search of people bringing like you do very well thoughts ideas. This is already investigated in a remote, hidden part of the forum, I hope it will make its way in the coming weeks or months. I am sure you will be part of the discussions.

    - T9A is and will remain forever free, that is a founding commitment. Meanwhile, T9A is also business friendly and is organized so that other companies or associations can build around T9A to provide products for a fee, which would be useful for players. The most obvious examples are model companies and tournament organizations. More under investigation.

    - Rules vs. fluff. Ah, how interesting is that issue! You are right and this is known, V1.0 has been released with only the most basic fluff, in order to let ETC play the game. ETC acts for us like a quality certification company. But they only care about rules, not fluff.
    The background has a very slow release rate, but on the other hand, will be much stabler than the rules. The full rulebook, with the background of the universe, is bound to be released later in the summer. The quality is bound to match what has been released for UD and SE.

    Ancora due contribuzioni come quella sopra e tu sarai richiesto di raggiungere la squadra relazioni pubbliche!

    Social Media Team

    UN Coordinator, aka UNSG

    - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
  • Thank you for all of your answers!

    I see, or better, I feel, there's a lot of real enthusiasm in all of your words and messages. And when I read the first post by @Draecarion, looking at the project management process scheme, I understood there's also the necessary professional knowledge to manage it.

    Both of them (passion - knowledge/professionalism) are probably the main points to be communicated to doubters (toghether with a new strong identity of the rules/bg of course).

    @Shieldwolf Miniatures Aknowledged. I also strongly believe that a such a community can establish a new kind of relationship with small shops and manufacturer. A relationship made of mutual support. After all, many of us are from the same countries (as a Greek friend always said to me: "Una faccia, una razza") which means also it's good to support local manufacturers and shops. Which reminds me that

    fantasy wargaming is not only fun: it can have a strong educational potential.

    @Calisson Thank you! If I made things properly, I should have applied already to @Scottish Knight for the Shape the World of T9A contest. Having a strong background in mythology, religious and historical stuff, I'm amazed at the idea of contributing to the BG. But I'm always open to every kind of cooperation: simply I love to contribute.

    Display Spoiler

    A jackal, O Karna, residing in the forest in the midst of hares regardeth himself a lion till he actually sees a lion.


    Display Spoiler

    Tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
    (Hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem,
    Parcere subjectis et debellare superbos.


  • VisconteDimezzato wrote:



    - community based projects generally fail on the long distance. This is, just to say, one of the point I'm worried about. My experience says often in such communities several wars between strong egos and different cultural positions can arise with such a power that the entire community can fall. This doesn't happen in companies because there's - let's say - a "contract-related" relation among the different "parts".
    That pops up from time to time in several discussions I've been having.

    In some ways, T9A is more structured than several of the companies I have worked with (and since I spent a few years doing international trade consulting there've been a few).

    There's nothing magical about a for-profit company. They can fail (Rackam, FASA), discontinue products (Blood Bowl) or turn them into something that doesn't resemble anything like the original product (WHFB -> AoS), have their best brains leave the company or get poached by the competition, etc.

    In short, other than the drive to make money being for-profit doesn't guarantee anything about the long-term viability of a project.

    T9A is incredibly professionally organised (props to the EB for that), staffed and should anyone fail there's enough people with the will, drive and skills to plug any hole in the organisation. There's challenges for sure (usually starting that everyone of us is doing it in his spare time) but there's just so much manpower behind it that it still goes on. No one, not even GW could possibly pay for the amount of man-hours put in this project and still make out something out of it.

    I'd be more worried about the viability of some game companies than T9A.

    Welcome on board, anyway!
  • @jouso you nailed it. There are lots of challenges, limited time being paramount. But new people keep coming into the project and picking up things that need to get done. Likewise, the community that is here is unlike any I've ever encountered before. There's almost a brotherhood that I see. I've personally made some very good friends I would not have known otherwise. I also have the highest respect for my teammates. This project will continue to grow (already past 7,500 members) and I think it will become the premier fantasy table top war game in the world.

    Welcome to the party @VisconteDimezzato! :thumbup:

    Assist. Head of Legal Team