Pinned The Saucy Quill Inn - Runecraft - 1415/71

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  • Other option: Hordes have no max rank bonus. So, they start with a better static result, but since they would not be steadfast they can be routed. This might imply a larger model limit, perhaps along with a reduction in points per model, or more likely, for the base unit (they lose steadfast for an advantage they don't benefit from unless they are a lot of models)
    I'm not a native English speaker, but I'd like to go on learning, so I'd appreciate grammar corrections.
  • Kpl.blutch wrote:

    Petterwass wrote:

    Yeah, not a fan of that, considering we already have to babysit them due to Ld5 anyway, now they'll have to be doubly babysat.
    Fair enough, you are not a fan, but I don't get the "double baby-sitting"
    As it is now, if your general on a warhorse or hippogriff move to far away -> no high Ld. If your BsB on warhorse move to far away -> no reroll
    If you have a hero in the unit, your general can charge the heck away, and you stll have some Ld in your peasant unit

    Christoffer
    If the general or BSB paladin (primary babysitter) I need to move up another Oath of Fealty model, usually a Pegasi Knight (secondary babysitter).
    Not they'll have to have booth the general nearby AND another model to give them better LD.
    I haz a blog! the-ninth-age.com/blog/index.p…-the-moment-aslo-batreps/.

    Mostly KoE and ID stuff. Now also some Void
  • Nemeroth wrote:

    2DSick wrote:

    Shlagrabak wrote:

    Plus: it's still black or white, even though we're getting out of the "very rare effect with big consequence" zone, which is already a start because it's a very anti-T9A concept (see the removal of insane courage). The problem that led to Ld creep was that it's way too catastrophic to fail a single panic (or break) test. If we had something in between "success, nothing happens" and "failure, you run" it would be good. In some suggestion thread it was proposed to have an intermediate state like the unit is "shaken" with serious malus (like to WS, BS and march capabilities) but not as bad as fleeing. Could be if you fail by 2 or less and are not shaken, you become shaken, if you fail otherwise you flee.
    ... I've got to say it... No one else has...Edit# AGH @Nemeroth got there first XD

    That would be "wavering". See Kings of War for details ☺️
    On it like Sonic. I actually don't get the KoW hate you see often in here, I love the game myself.
    me too mate, I play and very much enjoy both :D
    An insidious WotDGs background story;
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    Not all evil decends from the wastes,
    It resides in the very heart of men!

    Southeast Slaughter present: SOUTHSEA SLAUGHTER 2017 - A UK 9th Age Tournament

    Aswel as 9th Age goodness, you can find all kinds of crap pertaining to Kings of War, Dystopian Wars, Firestorm Armada, Infinity, Gates of Antares and whatever else I feel like at the time on my YouTube channel here:

    youtube.com/channel/UCj48rfvnfK4Q3Q7IZRsV2Bw
  • Different Approach for "What happens after the combat result"

    The "Overwhelmed" proposal is more complex, but it includes fixing for all the factors that usually spoils immersion and induce frustration in the players.


    Shadeseraph wrote:

    Revised morale system for current version of the game:

    1. Calculate combat resolution normally
    2. Winner rolls 2D6 + CR difference - L of the losing unit - this is the "overwhelm value"
      • if the "overwhelm value" is 0 or less, both units remain engaged normally.
      • if the "overwhelm value" is 1 or more and the losing unit is not disrupted, reduce it by the difference in ranks between units, to a minimum of 1.
    3. The player controlling the losing [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] rolls 2D6. This is the "steadfast value".
      • If the "overwhelm value" is higher than the "steadfast value", the losing unit breaks.
      • Units within range of the BSB may reroll.
    4. Otherwise, the losing [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] disengages from combat and moves the "overwhelm value" in inches, following the Flee rules to determine the direction of the move, but the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] does not change its facing.
    5. If the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] doesn't has enough space to make the full move*, reduce the "steadfast value" by an amount equal to the inches that the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] couldn't move.
      • In the case the new "steadfast value" is lower than the "overwhelm value", the unit breaks.
      • If the unit can't disengage due to lack of space, but doesn't break either, the winner may choose to disengage instead and move one inch backwards. If he doesn't or he can't, both units remain engaged normally.
    6. Finally, if the losing [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] didn't break:
      • The losing unit counts as "staggered" and cannot declare charges nor march in its next movement phase.
      • The winning unit may choose to "press the advantage" if not engaged. This counts as a charge against the losing unit - solve it normally, but assume that the charge roll is successful regardless of the distance needed. No combat happens this phase as the result of this charge.
    If the losing unit breaks: solve pursuits normally.


    *This may ocurr when the unit encounters Immpassable Terrain, freindly and enemy units, the board borders or it's engaged in several flanks.

    Exceptions:
    • Unbreakable units never break. They always count their leadership value as 10 for the purpose of the "overwhelm value".
    • Unstable units never break. They lose a number of models equal to the "overwhelm value", and count their leadership value as 8 for the purpose of the "overwhelm value".
    • Daemonic Instability units never break. They lose a number of models equal to the difference between the "overwhelm value" and the "steadfast value", if positive.

    It may need some polishing, so feedback in the main thread is welcome, but the effort made to encompass such many factors, deserves deep consideration, in my opinion.
    Undead Legions should be back from the grave! With blackjack. And hookers!

    In fact, forget about Undead Legions...

    The post was edited 15 times, last by Monjis ().

  • Monjis wrote:

    Different Approach for "What happens after the combat result"

    The "Overwhelmed" proposal is more complex, but it includes fixing for all the factors that usually spoils immersion and induce frustration in the players.


    Shadeseraph wrote:

    Revised morale system for current version of the game:

    1. Calculate combat resolution normally
    2. Winner rolls 2D6 + CR difference - L of the losing unit - this is the "overwhelm value"
      • if the "overwhelm value" is 0 or less, both units remain engaged normally.
      • if the "overwhelm value" is 1 or more and the losing unit is not disrupted, reduce it by the difference in ranks between units, to a minimum of 1.
    3. The player controlling the losing [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] rolls 2D6. This is the "steadfast value".
      • If the "overwhelm value" is higher than the "steadfast value", the losing unit breaks.
      • Units within range of the BSB may reroll.
    4. Otherwise, the losing [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] disengages from combat and moves the "overwhelm value" in inches, following the Flee rules to determine the direction of the move, but the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] does not change its facing.
    5. If the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] doesn't has enough space to make the full move*, reduce the "steadfast value" by an amount equal to the inches that the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] couldn't move.
      • In the case the new "steadfast value" is lower than the "overwhelm value", the unit breaks.
      • If the unit can't disengage due to lack of space, but doesn't break either, the winner may choose to disengage instead and move one inch backwards. If he doesn't or he can't, both units remain engaged normally.
    6. Finally, if the losing [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] didn't break:
      • The losing unit counts as "staggered" and cannot declare charges nor march in its next movement phase.
      • The winning unit may choose to "press the advantage" if not engaged. This counts as a charge against the losing unit - solve it normally, but assume that the charge roll is successful regardless of the distance needed. No combat happens this phase as the result of this charge.
    If the losing unit breaks: solve pursuits normally.


    *This may ocurr when the unit encounters Immpassable Terrain, freindly and enemy units, the board borders or it's engaged in several flanks.

    Exceptions:
    • Unbreakable units never break. They always count their leadership value as 10 for the purpose of the "overwhelm value".
    • Unstable units never break. They lose a number of models equal to the "overwhelm value", and count their leadership value as 8 for the purpose of the "overwhelm value".
    • Daemonic Instability units never break. They lose a number of models equal to the difference between the "overwhelm value" and the "steadfast value", if positive.

    It may need some polishing, so feedback in the main thread is welcome, but the effort made to encompass such many factors, deserves deep consideration, in my opinion.
    not a fan. multi round combats cant exist with this system. you either break or be pushed back some distance. actually it straight up prevents tarpits from doing their job as they will almost alway end up being pushed back. and so that unit has free reign to move about.
  • Kinginyellow wrote:

    Monjis wrote:

    Different Approach for "What happens after the combat result"

    The "Overwhelmed" proposal is more complex, but it includes fixing for all the factors that usually spoils immersion and induce frustration in the players.


    Shadeseraph wrote:

    Revised morale system for current version of the game:

    1. Calculate combat resolution normally
    2. Winner rolls 2D6 + CR difference - L of the losing unit - this is the "overwhelm value"
      • if the "overwhelm value" is 0 or less, both units remain engaged normally.
      • if the "overwhelm value" is 1 or more and the losing unit is not disrupted, reduce it by the difference in ranks between units, to a minimum of 1.
    3. The player controlling the losing [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] rolls 2D6. This is the "steadfast value".
      • If the "overwhelm value" is higher than the "steadfast value", the losing unit breaks.
      • Units within range of the BSB may reroll.
    4. Otherwise, the losing [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] disengages from combat and moves the "overwhelm value" in inches, following the Flee rules to determine the direction of the move, but the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] does not change its facing.
    5. If the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] doesn't has enough space to make the full move*, reduce the "steadfast value" by an amount equal to the inches that the [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] couldn't move.
      • In the case the new "steadfast value" is lower than the "overwhelm value", the unit breaks.
      • If the unit can't disengage due to lack of space, but doesn't break either, the winner may choose to disengage instead and move one inch backwards. If he doesn't or he can't, both units remain engaged normally.
    6. Finally, if the losing [lexicon]unit[/lexicon] didn't break:
      • The losing unit counts as "staggered" and cannot declare charges nor march in its next movement phase.
      • The winning unit may choose to "press the advantage" if not engaged. This counts as a charge against the losing unit - solve it normally, but assume that the charge roll is successful regardless of the distance needed. No combat happens this phase as the result of this charge.
    If the losing unit breaks: solve pursuits normally.


    *This may ocurr when the unit encounters Immpassable Terrain, freindly and enemy units, the board borders or it's engaged in several flanks.

    Exceptions:
    • Unbreakable units never break. They always count their leadership value as 10 for the purpose of the "overwhelm value".
    • Unstable units never break. They lose a number of models equal to the "overwhelm value", and count their leadership value as 8 for the purpose of the "overwhelm value".
    • Daemonic Instability units never break. They lose a number of models equal to the difference between the "overwhelm value" and the "steadfast value", if positive.

    It may need some polishing, so feedback in the main thread is welcome, but the effort made to encompass such many factors, deserves deep consideration, in my opinion.
    not a fan. multi round combats cant exist with this system. you either break or be pushed back some distance. actually it straight up prevents tarpits from doing their job as they will almost alway end up being pushed back. and so that unit has free reign to move about.
    Multi-round combats:

    A victorious unit can "Press the advantage" and charge the overwhelmed unit. This means that if you won and want to have another round of combat next turn, you can have it, and prolong the combat as usual.

    Tarpits usually lose combat and are pushed back. But:

    "if the "overwhelm value" is 1 or more and the losing unit is not disrupted, reduce it by the difference in ranks between units, to a minimum of 1."

    So, a usual tarpit, in 5 wide formation will have several more ranks than the enemy, so they will reduce the distance pushed back, and still be an impediment for the other unit. (If they don't have more ranks, the rules in 1.2 says that they won't be Steadfast, so not allowed to do their work either).

    A unit also has to be quite narrow to take advantage for any gap between the charger and the tarpit. A 5 wide cavalry unit is almost 5 inches long, so they would need to push back the unit at least 6 inches + the rank difference reduction.

    "Winner rolls 2D6 + CR difference - L of the losing unit - this is the overwhelm value"

    For example, let's supose a tarpit that has already taken loses and has only 2 more ranks than the charger unit.They also can be asumed to be in range of a L9 general (they always are, aren't they? :P Otherwise you have those useless L6 tarpits that were mentioned earlier)
    To push back this tarpit 6 inches, the winer has:

    2D6 + CR difference - L - rank difference = distance pushed

    8 (72% chance of rolling 8 or lower) + CR difference - 9 - 2 = 6

    CR difference = 9

    The tarpit usually must lose the combat of 9 or more to be pushed enough distance back to make enough breach.

    Additionally, a tarpit tends to receive charges, not to charge. If they are being charged, and then pushed back, in the case the enemy doesn't desire to Press the advantage to have "free reign to move", then, the next movement phase, the tarpit can, either move ahead to cover the gap (giving new interesting uses for Magical Movements) or to reform to cover more terrain and prevent the breakthrough. In any case, there is still a good chance of the tarpit giving 2, 3 or more turns off entertainment, while giving the tactical manoeuvring more rewards.

    Taking this into account in our previous example:

    CR difference - Movement of the unit = 9

    CR difference - 4 (human infantry) = 9

    CR difference = 13

    Of course, a unit losing a combat by more than 10 will probably break instead of disengaging, as they are supposed to do so, since is this one of the reasons we are facing this discusion at all.
    Undead Legions should be back from the grave! With blackjack. And hookers!

    In fact, forget about Undead Legions...

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Monjis ().

  • Salgar wrote:

    Monjis wrote:

    Tarpits usually lose combat and are pushed back.
    Ergo tarpits cease to exist as a unit type, since a stronger unit can disentangle themselves at will by simply winning a round of combat.
    As a DH player I'm okay with that. My goblin opponent will not be.
    The post 1.810 took some time to be completed, I was adding some examples to discuss this argument.

    Monjis wrote:

    Kinginyellow wrote:

    Monjis wrote:

    Different Approach for "What happens after the combat result"

    The "Overwhelmed" proposal is more complex, but it includes fixing for all the factors that usually spoils immersion and induce frustration in the players.




    Multi-round combats:
    A victorious unit can "Press the advantage" and charge the overwhelmed unit. This means that if you won and want to have another round of combat next turn, you can have it, and prolong the combat as usual.

    Tarpits usually lose combat and are pushed back. But:

    "if the "overwhelm value" is 1 or more and the losing unit is not disrupted, reduce it by the difference in ranks between units, to a minimum of 1."

    So, a usual tarpit, in 5 wide formation will have several more ranks than the enemy, so they will reduce the distance pushed back, and still be an impediment for the other unit. (If they don't have more ranks, the rules in 1.2 says that they won't be Steadfast, so not allowed to do their work either).

    A unit also has to be quite narrow to take advantage for any gap between the charger and the tarpit. A 5 wide cavalry unit is almost 5 inches long, so they would need to push back the unit at least 6 inches + the rank difference reduction.

    "Winner rolls 2D6 + CR difference - L of the losing unit - this is the overwhelm value"

    For example, let's supose a tarpit that has already taken loses and has only 2 more ranks than the charger unit.They also can be asumed to be in range of a L9 general (they always are, aren't they? :P Otherwise you have those useless L6 tarpits that were mentioned earlier)
    To push back this tarpit 6 inches, the winer has:

    2D6 + CR difference - L - rank difference = distance pushed

    8 (72% chance of rolling 8 or lower) + CR difference - 9 - 2 = 6

    CR difference = 9

    The tarpit usually must lose the combat of 9 or more to be pushed enough distance back to make enough breach.

    Additionally, a tarpit tends to receive charges, not to charge. If they are being charged, and then pushed back, in the case the enemy doesn't desire to Press the advantage to have "free reign to move", then, the next movement phase, the tarpit can, either move ahead to cover the gap (giving new interesting uses for Magical Movements) or to reform to cover more terrain and prevent the breakthrough. In any case, there is still a good chance of the tarpit giving 2, 3 or more turns off entertainment, while giving the tactical manoeuvring more rewards.

    Taking this into account in our previous example:

    CR difference - Movement of the unit = 9

    CR difference - 4 (human infantry) = 9

    CR difference = 13

    Of course, a unit losing a combat by more than 10 will probably break instead of disengaging, as they are supposed to do so, since is this one of the reasons we are facing this discusion at all.
    Undead Legions should be back from the grave! With blackjack. And hookers!

    In fact, forget about Undead Legions...
  • I actually had a similar idea several days ago inspired by De Bellis Antiquitatis which has a similar mechanic, but I dismissed it for this game for reasons stated below. Along those lines, I wish certain weapons besides spears had advantages against other troop types.

    All in all this rule is just fine...If you're not an all tarpit army like my rats. That's a lot of getting pushed off the table. No elite infantry. ZERO.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by The Unmarked ().