Enough Self Entitlement

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  • Drakkar du Chaos wrote:

    Vazalaar wrote:

    Bugman wrote:

    Unfortunately your wrong.

    If Furion had reworked warhammer and it became as big as T9A is now, GW 180 pound lawyer gorillas would be stomping all over it

    T9A needs and does embolden the warhammer spirit and feel but it has to achieve its own ID without using ideas GW could hold copyright status over

    Bugman
    Please look at this, open a couple of armybooks (and be amazed) and check out his 9th edition rulebook. The project exists almost for a decade. No problems there, so please stop using that GW lawyer excuse, also the one responsible for GW agressive IP policly left GW this year.. .The GW 180 pound lawyer will only come stomping if you try to make money of it.. .
    Ah ! We have a internet lawyer right here :thumbsup:

    Also i see discussions about @Furion reworked 8th edition, at least you could tag him if you want to talk about his work ;)
    That's brilliant! How have I never heard of that site before.

    Now to convince the local group to come back to the store and play this.
    we are small but we are many
    we are many we are small
    we were here before you rose
    we will be here when you fall

    we have eyes and we have nerveses
    We have tails we have teeth
    You will get what you deserveses
    When we rise from underneath
  • Digger614 wrote:

    @Vazalaar please stop saying "GW will only go after you when ..." The bottom line is, you don't know how to complete that sentence. Neither do I. This is pure speculation and conjecture on your part but you are stating it as a fact. The position that you are taking is naïve. I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, it's not intended that way. But we can't be irresponsible with this project.

    The interesting thing is, we all want a living and breathing game to be around for years to come. We both want a mass ranked up fantasy war game. We both want a turn based game with stats and dice rolls, with in depth movement, shooting, a magic phase and close combat. We both want strategic list building and a tactical immersive game. What we are disagreeing about is the particular aspects of the rules.

    If you have it set in your mind that you only want to play exactly Warhammer (or something so close to it that its basically the same thing), you can do that. Please understand that your argument (about the killing off of the WH community) is not with T9A, it's with Games Workshop. As you have noted, there are a number of website out there that are providing WH. That's fine, we don't have any connection with them. But T9A can't be 9Ed WH.
    I don't remember this argument when the project first started; it seems new. Can you please remind me why is this called the "9th" Age? What does the 9th refer too? Ninth what?
    Fun Fact: The reason we use the term "Dwarves" and not "Dwarfs" is the works of J.R.R Tolkien. tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dwarves
  • nightsoul wrote:

    grungimusic wrote:

    I don't remember this argument when the project first started; it seems new. Can you please remind me why is this called the "9th" Age? What does the 9th refer too? Ninth what?
    you can look here ;)

    warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=129642
    LOL!!

    "Hi folks!

    With the coming of Sigmar, Games Workshop allows us to play with whatever rules we want. As a competitive gamer and warhammer enthusiast (been playing for 19 years), I want the ninth edition of the game, developed by people that actually know the game. TheNigthAge will bring you this!

    The main idea is to cover all things from 8th edition and in the long run rework the armies. The first release will give you a new rulebook, most things will be kept the same, just rephrasing of rules to let people understand the rules more easily. The main focus will be to get a simple system that cant be misunderstood. Spells will be reworked, misscasts will be reworked (more punishing for using more dices and less punishing when using less dices).

    In the long run all units will be worked, spearmens will be cheaper while warlocks will be more expensive as an example. All armies will get larger updates (brettonia and beastmen needs this the most). The statslines will be stay the same while the special rules and point costs of the models might change. "

    After a year, it seems Bretonnia / KoE is back at the end.... .

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Vazalaar ().

  • nightsoul wrote:

    grungimusic wrote:

    I don't remember this argument when the project first started; it seems new. Can you please remind me why is this called the "9th" Age? What does the 9th refer too? Ninth what?
    you can look here ;)

    warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=129642
    Thank you, that link is solid. Gold.

    Now compare what was in that post to what Digger just posted, and tell me that's not a bait and switch.
    Fun Fact: The reason we use the term "Dwarves" and not "Dwarfs" is the works of J.R.R Tolkien. tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dwarves
  • grungimusic wrote:

    Now compare what was in that post to what Digger just posted, and tell me that's not a bait and switch.
    Really @grungimusic? Are you saying that this post that was made back in June 2015 before this website was even turned on is what drew you in to the project and then the rug was pulled out from under you? Do you really feel like the staff of T9A has tricked you? I don't understand your "bait and switch" analogy. What is it that you want? Do you want this project to perpetually be in danger? Do you want us to never be able to grow the fan base because no company would ever be able to print books? Do you want us to tie ourselves inextricably to a game that GW killed off? What point are you trying to make?

    furion wrote:

    T9A occupies post-WFB niche.
    It has to be somewhat alike.
    Now this is a statement that I totally agree with. Yes, as the spiritual successor to WH, T9A has to be somewhat alike. In fact, I was say even more than somewhat alike. They are akin in that they should have the same feel and fill the same niche. So yes, T9A can't become some skirmish based game that is totally foreign to the community. No one that I know of wants that.

    Assist. Head of Legal Team

  • @grungimusic @Vazalaar

    I hope you can understand that things have changed quite a lot from June 2015 when the idea behind 9th Age was just 6 acquaintances to where is now 16 months later with a staff of well over 200 people. Not to mention that the people managing the project are not the same as those who started it even though all of them are still involved with the project.

    In the past 16 month a lot has been learned which prompted us who manage to do certain shifts in the goals which makes them different from the initial aspirations of the starters though with the support of those same individuals.

    Ever since the structure started forming back in September 2015 meaning of 9th Age was changed. It is intrinsically linked into the background we are going to present by the end of this year (not counting on any unexpected events) and is reflected in the history of our own world as well as some aspects of numerology of number 9 such as leading by positive example and philanthropy because this what we do we do out of our love for our hobby and the people who participate in it. There is no other way to truly explain why some of devote thousands of hours to it.

    If people like and accept our work we are gladdened by it. If they do not, we do not object to them having different opinions or expressing their dissatisfaction. What we do ask for is that these opinions and statements are reasoned so that they may be better accepted and acknowledged. I do not object reading a long well constructed criticism and reflecting upon it to see if the decision I have made were right or not, but what I do object to is a flood of simple, hyperbolic and unsupported statements that drowns discussion with unhelpful noise. That being sad during the past days there have been statement from both members of the wider community as well as members of the staff which I was not satisfied with as they did little to promote constructive discussion. I know that for many of us language is a barrier and that thinking in our own languages and writing that same thing in English can be problematic since things are lost in translation and monitors are very bad at transferring the tone of the message. So I would ask everyone who seeks to constructively participate in the discussion and provide feedback to slow down, think what they want to write, draft the criticism (positive or negative), read through it several times to see how their message might be interpreted by the readers on the other side, make adjustment where they think are needed and only then post.

    One final note to conclude this wall of text. I have seen that a portion of the negative criticism comes from different tastes. To that I have no answer as tastes are subjective. All I can hope for is that when we manage to release the entirety of our work these individuals who did not like what we do can evaluate it once more and maybe change their minds.


    Cheers

    and good night :)

    Background Team

    Conceptual Design

    Rules Advisors

    The Saucy Quill Inn - First Batch of info from the Survey - 1886/95
  • Yet again, I create a controversial thread. Job well done.

    Let us take a step back here. Especially away from the "legalities" as everyone in every argument about this is throwing around.

    Yes, maybe more insight on what to expect over the longer period of time would have been helpful for a lot of people, but we were told from day one that what we got wasn't set, to EXPECT changes, potentially big ones.

    To EXPECT the game to stay in the exact same lines as it was, is to have the same complacent mind set we as players had for years in another gaming system. And it was an expectation that was drilled into us by the developers of that gaming system when they refused to recognise issues, address rule problems, listen to feedback and provide support to their players. And they were a money making business who should have given a s**t.

    Instead now, we are in a new gaming system that is NOT driven by sales, or by the corporate wheel, where we actually see a hell of a lot more support, and have seen that commitment of unpaid individuals at fixing issues.

    Version 1.2 is not the be all end all people. Things will evolve with time, issues now will be fixed. Rome was not built in a day and this game wont be either. But if you want it to be the exact same as what you played before, we all have an old BRB from another gaming system sitting in our garage collecting dust. Feel free too. But if you want to play a game that is going somewhere, has proven to be going somewhere, has a solid development and support team behind it, then you need to be patient and forgiving, instead of taking to the keyboard everytime something happens that you do not like.

    And again, may the hate start pouring at me again :D
    The Beast Herds have heard the Call. The Blood Hunt is coming to Play.
    Run and Hide, Run and Hide. For come the Break of Day,
    Blood will run as we catch our Prey.....

    anempirefallen.blogspot.com
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    T9A Armies: Beast Herds, Empire of Sonnstahl, Warriors of the Dark Gods, Dread Elves, Orcs & Goblins
  • Despite there being a lot of angry/disappointed comments on the forum right now due to the changes to the army books, that anger/disappointment is due to their passion.

    In internet discussions, self-entitlement is an unfortunate drawback of passionate community. I have never seen a community which is very involved with something, be it movies, comics, video games or anything else, where there would not have been any self-entitlement if the community is passionate about their subject. I think that we just have to be self-aware of the fact and try to tune it down when possible, but I think it is a good thing people are so passionate about T9A.
  • Vulcan wrote:

    After all, the game IS based on GW's work.
    Can we please stop accusing the project of copyright infringement?

    T9A is not based on WHFB. It is inspired by WHFB. That's not just splitting hairs. That difference is the difference between doing something illegal and doing something acceptable and encouraged.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • grungimusic wrote:

    I am not a spoiled,entitled child waiting for rules to be tossed to me like bits of worm to a screeching baby mockingbird. There is a reason the project is called the 9th Age and not some other number. Stray too far from that reason, and I will rightly consider myself bait and switched. Should I not be upset if this happens? Not like "death in the family" upset, but "Sony SWG new game enhancements" upset.
    So much this. I feel (rightly or wrongly) that you just used warhammer popularity when it suited you (to draw people in) and now that you feel you no longer need it you'll do what you want with the direction of the game and all of us WH fans be damned. All posts from staff I have seen since yesterday dismissing people's complaints (I haven't even seen one post admitting you could be wrong) only reinforce that view.
  • Pirao wrote:

    grungimusic wrote:

    I am not a spoiled,entitled child waiting for rules to be tossed to me like bits of worm to a screeching baby mockingbird. There is a reason the project is called the 9th Age and not some other number. Stray too far from that reason, and I will rightly consider myself bait and switched. Should I not be upset if this happens? Not like "death in the family" upset, but "Sony SWG new game enhancements" upset.
    So much this. I feel (rightly or wrongly) that you just used warhammer popularity when it suited you (to draw people in) and now that you feel you no longer need it you'll do what you want with the direction of the game and all of us WH fans be damned. All posts from staff I have seen since yesterday dismissing people's complaints (I haven't even seen one post admitting you could be wrong) only reinforce that view.
    If you read The 9th Scrolls, then maybe these posts were obsolete.

    Btw: the changes between the warhammer editions were much more drastic, e.g. a completely new magic system with every new edition.

    And btw: I became member and then staff member with the hope that the game will develop much more than just being an 8.1 and even much more than it currently is.

    If you see this thread/poll The Direction of the Game then you will see that the community is nearly 50/50 about slightly developping or going its own way.

    And if you see the mass of good suggestions in the suggestions forum and in the army forums you will see that there is much more potential to improve the game..... streamlining where necessary, increasing depth where possible.

    Rules Support

    SE Community Support

    Playtester

    Local Moderator


  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    Vulcan wrote:

    After all, the game IS based on GW's work.
    Can we please stop accusing the project of copyright infringement?
    T9A is not based on WHFB. It is inspired by WHFB. That's not just splitting hairs. That difference is the difference between doing something illegal and doing something acceptable and encouraged.
    Well then you'd have to change the entire skeletal structure.

    Why is the magic phase the second phase? Why do player turns occur linear and concurrently instead of randomized each turn? Why are D6 used? Why are there 16 factions? Etc. . . Etc. . .

    Don't be obtuse you understand what he's inferring. It's that T9A used WFB as a legal skeleton for design. If this adamant denial is more than a personal feeling then delusions if grandeur have really gripped hold, and T9A is in deeper than just PC commentary.
    Whenever I need a break from reading #Dwarfposting I just meander over to #Ogrewishingwell forum.

    Foodwagons, and Ogre Crossbows to err'body. :thumbsup:
  • Giladis wrote:

    Vulcan wrote:
    If the strategy is to avoid any possibility of a lawsuit, it'll never work.

    Your game IS based on GW's, however much you change it. Face that fact. In light of that, you will ALWAYS be vulnerable to being sued by GW. It's far less cause than GW would need to at least FILE a lawsuit, which you claim will wreck you. You CANNOT prevent it, period. So... why worry about it?


    Here's the trick: There's another way to wreck a project, especially a
    reclamation project like this one. You change the game so much you lose
    the fanbase.

    In light of that, there's little point to driving the changes even THIS far in a vain attempt to fend off a lawsuit.



    Giladis wrote:
    There is a difference between between someone filing a lawsuit and the
    Court accepting that lawsuit based on the evidence shown. Of course
    anyone can sue anyone, but not all lawsuit get accepted on the basis
    they are groundless.

    No 9th Age is not based on GW's
    IP. 9th Age game mechanics belong to the same broad family of war games
    from the late '80 of which Warhammer was the best known representative.
    Sorry for the bad quote...
  • Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Vulcan wrote:

    After all, the game IS based on GW's work.
    Can we please stop accusing the project of copyright infringement?T9A is not based on WHFB. It is inspired by WHFB. That's not just splitting hairs. That difference is the difference between doing something illegal and doing something acceptable and encouraged.
    Well then you'd have to change the entire skeletal structure.
    Why is the magic phase the second phase? Why do player turns occur linear and concurrently instead of randomized each turn? Why are D6 used? Why are there 16 factions? Etc. . . Etc. . .

    Don't be obtuse you understand what he's inferring. It's that T9A used WFB as a legal skeleton for design. If this adamant denial is more than a personal feeling then delusions if grandeur have really gripped hold, and T9A is in deeper than just PC commentary.
    And yet the T9A project has a special staff team labeled as Legal team and has IP lawyers running the legal show and they are the ones telling you what we are and what we as a project are not.

    But you and others persist on the claim that T9A is WHFB 9th.

    Which it is not nor it can be.

    But a multitude of people ignore that so that they can say "you are deviating too far from WHFB 8th!"

    We are not here to offer a clone.

    We are here to offer a complete gaming system wit the level of immersion that drew us to WHFB before GW killed it off.

    But you also need to realise that this is STILL an ongoing process, so some patience is reqired.

    Along with constructive critique.
    Used to be a Vampire ABC member... then an Elf lass bit me... nowadays I have this insatiable craving for cheese, whine and fancy dresses... 8| The Dawn Host of ArchangelusM

    Army Design Team

    Draecarion, may the Lord grant eternal peace to your soul, my Friend!
  • Ursa06 wrote:

    An Empire Fallen wrote:

    Let us not forget, that if it wasn't for the endless unpaid hours of a huge group of volunteers across the globe who wanted to provide a game for the community, your entire army that you bought over from Games Workshop would now be redundant and collecting dust.
    THIS! A thousand times!
    T9A split the community even further. nothng more, nothing lees. I'm off to play the Warhammer Armies Project 9th. Been mulling it over for a while, and the OP have made that decision easy.

    Laters
    “Most have been forgotten. Most deserve to be forgotten. The heroes will always be remembered. The best. The best and the worst. And a few who were a bit of both.”
  • DJWoodelf wrote:

    Just imagine GW wouldnt have stopped warhammer but released a 9th edition.

    Does ANYONE here believe that there would have been NO BIG changes!? :drunk:
    We will never know, but I am quite certain GW will certainly not backed down on special rules or unit options. ;) And I like special rules and unit / equipment options. I assume you also, atleast that's the impression when I saw your equipment rules!
  • KeyserSoze wrote:

    Do you guys really think that the design team and the relevant boards try to destroy the game or make it worse than before?
    Sure meant as rhetoric question. But when I compare 1.1 and 1.2, it now is in a worse state then before.
    I don't believe you want to destroy the game, but I belive you wanted too much at once, and maybe some things that weren't thought about.