Enough Self Entitlement

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  • Enough Self Entitlement

    Moderators please feel free to remove this thread should you feel I am being too forward.

    Since the start of the T9A project, I have fought inside my local and national community, and on the forums, not against players but against the mindset players have that this is WHFB. In company of this, is the mindset that everyone seems to have that this is a community owned game. That your say matters.

    Guess what? Its not. And it doesn't.....to a point.

    Every individual's opinions, thoughts and feedback matters as a whole to the game in helping for it to progress. However, feedback and opinions do not give any player ownership over this game, as it is not community owned but community driven (MASSIVE difference). The self-entitled idea that when you don't get what you want you can just throw your toys out of the crib and have a tantrum, is what leads to internet warriors. Nothing more.

    Now I am not naive enough to believe that all the changes are what people want. Or that they are perfect. And I am not blinded enough not to have my own thoughts and opinions on certain changes, whether good or bad.

    I read one post today of a person complaining that in the KoE book, units were removed, and how its "super not cool" s people have paid money and put in the effort to paint those miniatures and now they are redundant. Let us not forget, that if it wasn't for the endless unpaid hours of a huge group of volunteers across the globe who wanted to provide a game for the community, your entire army that you bought over from Games Workshop would now be redundant and collecting dust.

    The job of the creators of this game has been for the most part thankless, and taken for granted. And as we continue to allow our own pent up self entitlement and expectations of what this game should be to drive the way we approach it and to guide our fingers as we fill the forums with negativity, we continue to take for granted the gift that this game is to us.

    At the end of the day, it is a game, and once the dice stop rolling, your models just go back onto the shelf.



    Okay, let the hate begin lol
    The Beast Herds have heard the Call. The Blood Hunt is coming to Play.
    Run and Hide, Run and Hide. For come the Break of Day,
    Blood will run as we catch our Prey.....

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    T9A Armies: Beast Herds, Empire of Sonnstahl, Warriors of the Dark Gods, Dread Elves, Orcs & Goblins
  • An Empire Fallen wrote:

    At the end of the day, it is a game, and once the dice stop rolling, your models just go back onto the shelf.
    What happens to this project if the dice stop rolling? Would that be a positive thing or a negative thing to the creators of this game?

    I have no illusions about who is in charge of driving this gaming system.

    I don't expect things to be perfect, and I don't expect to like every change that comes around.

    But I expect the people who put weeks and months of thought and effort and analysis into those changes to pay attention to what effect they have on the community base. Without the support of a community, there's no game. Stores will never start stocking T9A rulebooks if the community support isn't there.

    I expect them to answer questions accurately and effectively. There's no reason I should have to sift and measure which answers are true and which ones are...misleading.

    I don't expect to run across serious problems that should have been noticed and corrected during those weeks and months of thought and effort and analysis. If I can spot a major problem in 10 seconds that none of the game's creators noticed in weeks or months, that undermines my confidence in their thought, effort, and analysis--perhaps unfairly, because everyone gets tunnel-visioned sometimes or simply makes mistakes. But the more it happens, the less confidence I have.

    The overarching changes to the gaming system are okay. They aren't bad--in fact they're probably good, on the balance--and it sounds like they were necessary for more than one reason. That's fine. They take some getting used to, but that isn't the problem.

    The problem is that the execution of those changes seems to have been lacking. For all the tireless effort the game's creators put in, they missed some really obvious and significant things. They made some glaring mistakes.

    The new system is good. Most people on the forums seem to have been cautiously optimistic about it since the initial announcements and previews.

    What the game's creators have done with the new system? Not as much. Optimism plummeted on the forums once people started getting glimpses of what effect the new system was going to have. Everybody liked (or wanted to like) the new system. A great many people disliked the results.

    Much of the feedback has been negative because many of the changes to the game have not been positive.

    There is some disagreement over that...as there should be and always will be, since that's a very subjective statement.

    But there are fewer dice rolling today than there were a week ago.

    That's not "self-entitlement."

    That's a dip in enthusiasm.

    If there is a dip in enthusiasm whenever a new version is released, The 9th Age will die off.

    The dice will stop rolling.

    What happens to this project if the dice stop rolling? Would that be a positive thing or a negative thing to the creators of this game?
  • I somewhat agree with you, only one thing i really disagree: "Mostly thankless" is a huge overstatement. I personally remember countless posts over all the forum within the last month, where people expressed grattitude and thank for parts or the whole team. In addition there was a lot of constructive feedback and interesting discussions! Sure, now there is a big uproar with this huge amount of changes, but that was to be expectet and if i compare the tone in this forum with other internet based communitys, its pretty peaceful over here...
  • An Empire Fallen wrote:

    Let us not forget, that if it wasn't for the endless unpaid hours of a huge group of volunteers across the globe who wanted to provide a game for the community, your entire army that you bought over from Games Workshop would now be redundant and collecting dust.
    THIS! A thousand times!
    Once a Daemon player - always a Daemon player!

    "You can't outthink someone who doesn't think."

    Ursa's Legions of Infinity

    Background-driven game - Campaign with a global map


    youngseward wrote:

    My theory is if the game is truly balanced, everyone will be unhappy. Everyone thinks they should win 60% of their games.
  • An Empire Fallen wrote:

    Let us not forget, that if it wasn't for the endless unpaid hours of a huge group of volunteers across the globe who wanted to provide a game for the community, your entire army that you bought over from Games Workshop would now be redundant and collecting dust.
    Alternatives do and did exist, and please do continue to compare this project's users to small children throwing a tantrum, you're really helping (I'm not saying I am either)

    For the record : I'm cautiously optimistic about this project, and still think it's the best, I wasn't cautious a month ago
    Le vent se lève !... Il faut tenter de vivre !
  • Let's put this puppy to bed right now. I have been very critical of certain aspects of the new changes, but careful to overall remain respectful of the people who made them.

    I did not help write these rules, nor perform any real labor toward that task ( a fact which I am now regretting, but that is beside the point).

    This does not mean I performed no labor in service to the 9th Age project.

    I initially began an email campaign to help bring the diaspora of 8th back into the fold; I helped introduce persons from different isolated groups and reform the community here. I was not alone in this, but I performed volunteer labor in it's service, and this labor bore fruit. We have a great community beginning to form here, and I would not see it destroyed and all our labor for nothing.

    I have been building the community in my city. Every Friday, I meet with largely the same person at the same store to play and promote 9th Age to whoever will listen. I post on the local boards to draw in new players. This is labor performed in the service to 9th Age, for which I am not paid ( well playing is fun, but we are essentially doing a demo so you get the idea).

    I donated over $500 in prizes to a 9th Age tournament last year. I performed labor to earn this money; this labor was therefore in service to the 9th Age project. At fast food worker pay rate,that's over 50 hours of time volunteered.

    And despite all this, my efforts are nothing compared to the work of major tournament organizers across the country. Lots of people volunteer their time for the 9th Age project, not just those who write the rules! If it ever becomes too much for any of them, I volunteer to write 1.3 all by myself (seriously I will just let me know).

    I am not a spoiled,entitled child waiting for rules to be tossed to me like bits of worm to a screeching baby mockingbird. There is a reason the project is called the 9th Age and not some other number. Stray too far from that reason, and I will rightly consider myself bait and switched. Should I not be upset if this happens? Not like "death in the family" upset, but "Sony SWG new game enhancements" upset.
    "An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you *stand, Men of the West!*"

    -Aragorn, son of Arathorn
  • An Empire Fallen wrote:

    I read one post today of a person complaining that in the KoE book, units were removed, and how its "super not cool" s people have paid money and put in the effort to paint those miniatures and now they are redundant. Let us not forget, that if it wasn't for the endless unpaid hours of a huge group of volunteers across the globe who wanted to provide a game for the community, your entire army that you bought over from Games Workshop would now be redundant and collecting dust.

    :thumbsup:
    Is it possible for the Layout Team to add this quote in each army books ?
    " Des chercheurs qui cherchent, on en trouve. Des chercheurs qui trouvent, on en cherche " Charles de Gaulle
    " Si l'on bâtissait la maison du bonheur, la plus grande pièce en serait la salle d'attente " Jules Renard
    " Plus j'aime l'humanité en général, moins j'aime les gens en particulier " Fedor Dostoïevski
    " Only in the darkness can you see the stars " Martin Luther King Jr
  • Adding a line at the top of your post that it's okay to moderate you if you're out of line
    doesn't mean you are doing anything more than the "entitled, tantrum-throwing, children"
    you cry out against.

    When people like, love, or enjoy, something; the more resistant they are to a change in that
    something. Enthusiasm turns to concern and it's a natural reaction.
    But some of that entusiasm remains and mixes with the concern to make people forget to
    look at the big picture before reacting.
    People forget that with such broad, sweeping, changes one cannot just look at part of it and
    make judgement. And it would be naïve of anyone to expect anything less than outcries
    of those who not only ignores the bigger picture, but can't even see it if they tried.

    There are also those jump to conclusions and go straight to complaining or outcries.
    People are impatient.
    But for everyone of them there's another who doesn't, who engages with community with
    reason; asking questions, seeking answers and reasons behind everything for their own
    better understanding of the situation.

    Your thread helps neither, it assaults the former and antagonizes the latter by ignoring
    the constructive critcisms and discussions made. It's a difficult thing to address but
    it certainly requires more tact than just responding in kind.

    I would like to say that the people behind this project don't do a thankless service and
    if they truly did and felt so themselves they would stop doing it. They might not always
    recieve thanks in direct and written form, but then again, too much of the same and it
    just looses meaning.
    Instead the thanks they recieve for the most part comes in the engagement, and
    enthusiasm, the community that is built around their project shows towards it; and
    whatever direct thanks they recieve are genuine and heartfelt.
  • An Empire Fallen wrote:

    ....
    I read one post today of a person complaining that in the KoE book, units were removed, and how its "super not cool" s people have paid money and put in the effort to paint those miniatures and now they are redundant. Let us not forget, that if it wasn't for the endless unpaid hours of a huge group of volunteers across the globe who wanted to provide a game for the community, your entire army that you bought over from Games Workshop would now be redundant and collecting dust.
    ...
    Nope, even if 9th Age didn't exist your mini's wouldn't be gathering dust. I.e if 9th Age wasn't chosen for the ETC 2016 on the Warhammer.org.uk than 9th Age wouldn't have existed and something else would have been created. I.e Furion his reworked and rebalancedwork could have become the base of it. With the end of Warhammer the community splitted in KoW, Age of Sigmar, 9th Age, various other fanmade Warhammer rulesets and some just stopped with fantasy.

    Here is a list of alternatives for Warhammer.
    • Warhammer Reworked and rebalanced.
    • Warhammer Armies Project (just released updates for Estalia, Dogs of War and Regiments of Renown both for 8th edition and 9th edition).
    • Eight edition for life (although very slow updates)
    • Warhammer fantasy 8.5 community
    • Countless of oldhammer groups.
    • Even KoW released armylist for the existing Warhammer armies.
    The reason 9th Age did so well was because they created a fantastic momentum with the promise of a better Warhammer. It worked for months. When they released the EoS armylist, it was yes, it is the Empire armylist I always wanted as an Empire player.. Same for VC, VS and other armies... but now after 1.2 it is more hmm.. this isn't really what I hoped that my army would become after a year.....

    A big group is very disappointed, but hey go ahead and make us look like ungrateful childeren.
  • Vazalaar wrote:

    Nope, even if 9th Age didn't exist your mini's wouldn't be gathering dust. I.e if 9th Age wasn't chosen for the ETC 2016 on the Warhammer.org.uk than 9th Age wouldn't have existed and something else would have been created. I.e Furion his reworked and rebalancedwork could have become the base of it. With the end of Warhammer the community splitted in KoW, Age of Sigmar, 9th Age, various other fanmade Warhammer rulesets and some just stopped with fantasy.
    Here is a list of alternatives for Warhammer.
    • Warhammer Reworked and rebalanced.
    • Warhammer Armies Project (just released updates for Estalia, Dogs of War and Regiments of Renown both for 8th edition and 9th edition).
    • Eight edition for life (although very slow updates)
    • Warhammer fantasy 8.5 community
    • Countless of oldhammer groups.
    • Even KoW released armylist for the existing Warhammer armies.
    The reason 9th Age did so well was because they created a fantastic momentum with the promise of a better Warhammer. It worked for months. When they released the EoS armylist, it was yes, it is the Empire armylist I always wanted as an Empire player.. Same for VC, VS and other armies... but now after 1.2 it is more hmm.. this isn't really what I hoped that my army would become after a year.....

    A big group is very disappointed, but hey go ahead and make us look like ungrateful childeren.
    Very much this.
    I even started a rebalancing of WFB with my group during the end times campaign but chose to skip it 80% through since this project was gaining momentum for this exact reason. And since in my opinion it would be better to have common ground with other disperse groups of players in the community. T9A offered exactly this.
  • Unfortunately your wrong.

    If Furion had reworked warhammer and it became as big as T9A is now, GW 180 pound lawyer gorillas would be stomping all over it

    T9A needs and does embolden the warhammer spirit and feel but it has to achieve its own ID without using ideas GW could hold copyright status over

    Bugman
    http://www.bugmansbrewery.com - The largest most informative Fantasy Dwarf website on the net, covering every dwarfers needs from forum to tactics, balls to ships!

    Advisory Board

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  • Bugman wrote:

    Unfortunately your wrong.

    If Furion had reworked warhammer and it became as big as T9A is now, GW 180 pound lawyer gorillas would be stomping all over it

    T9A needs and does embolden the warhammer spirit and feel but it has to achieve its own ID without using ideas GW could hold copyright status over

    Bugman
    Please look at this, open a couple of armybooks (and be amazed) and check out his 9th edition rulebook. The project exists almost for a decade. No problems there, so please stop using that GW lawyer excuse, also the one responsible for GW agressive IP policly left GW this year.. .

    The GW 180 pound lawyer will only come stomping if you try to make money of it.. .
  • Vazalaar wrote:

    Bugman wrote:

    Unfortunately your wrong.

    If Furion had reworked warhammer and it became as big as T9A is now, GW 180 pound lawyer gorillas would be stomping all over it

    T9A needs and does embolden the warhammer spirit and feel but it has to achieve its own ID without using ideas GW could hold copyright status over

    Bugman
    Please look at this, open a couple of armybooks (and be amazed) and check out his 9th edition rulebook. The project exists almost for a decade. No problems there, so please stop using that GW lawyer excuse, also the one responsible for GW agressive IP policly left GW this year.. .
    The GW 180 pound lawyer will only come stomping if you try to make money of it.. .

    Ah ! We have a internet lawyer right here :thumbsup:

    Also i see discussions about @Furion reworked 8th edition, at least you could tag him if you want to talk about his work ;)
    " Des chercheurs qui cherchent, on en trouve. Des chercheurs qui trouvent, on en cherche " Charles de Gaulle
    " Si l'on bâtissait la maison du bonheur, la plus grande pièce en serait la salle d'attente " Jules Renard
    " Plus j'aime l'humanité en général, moins j'aime les gens en particulier " Fedor Dostoïevski
    " Only in the darkness can you see the stars " Martin Luther King Jr
  • And that's where your wrong again.

    GW can come stomping even if your not making money out it, that's the point. A lot of small hobby stuff they let go but if enough attraction is drawn to it then yes they will go for it

    Staff change, policy rarely does, if they feel threatened they will go for you

    If you think the T9A is safe because no money is made your very very wrong so please don't use that poor unfounded excuse

    Bugman

    Ps I love Furion a edition, don't get me wrong!
    http://www.bugmansbrewery.com - The largest most informative Fantasy Dwarf website on the net, covering every dwarfers needs from forum to tactics, balls to ships!

    Advisory Board

    Head of Public Relations

    Bugmans Brewery Owner (Dwarven Holds)

  • Drakkar du Chaos wrote:

    Vazalaar wrote:

    Bugman wrote:

    Unfortunately your wrong.

    If Furion had reworked warhammer and it became as big as T9A is now, GW 180 pound lawyer gorillas would be stomping all over it

    T9A needs and does embolden the warhammer spirit and feel but it has to achieve its own ID without using ideas GW could hold copyright status over

    Bugman
    Please look at this, open a couple of armybooks (and be amazed) and check out his 9th edition rulebook. The project exists almost for a decade. No problems there, so please stop using that GW lawyer excuse, also the one responsible for GW agressive IP policly left GW this year.. .The GW 180 pound lawyer will only come stomping if you try to make money of it.. .
    Ah ! We have a internet lawyer right here :thumbsup:

    Also i see discussions about @Furion reworked 8th edition, at least you could tag him if you want to talk about his work ;)
    Pff, please, I tagged @Furion before when talking about his version. I think even in the initial impressions 1.2 thread, so I don't know what point you are trying to make.

    And yes, GW will only go after you when you try to use their IP to make money. Otherwise how can you explain Warhammer Armies Project. I assume that you looked at that website. It breaths Warhammer.
  • An Empire Fallen wrote:

    (...) the mindset that everyone seems to have that this is a community owned game. That your say matters.

    Guess what? Its not. And it doesn't.....to a point.

    Every individual's opinions, thoughts and feedback matters as a whole to the game in helping for it to progress. However, feedback and opinions do not give any player ownership over this game, as it is not community owned but community driven (MASSIVE difference). The self-entitled idea that when you don't get what you want you can just throw your toys out of the crib and have a tantrum, is what leads to internet warriors. Nothing more.
    This is true to a point.

    Some players have way more insight into a game than others. T9A is no exception to this rule.
    Discarding their opinion is foolish and hurts community as a whole. T9A is also no different in this aspect.
    When it comes to balance, opinions have to be weighted, because the amount of mediocre players vastly outnumbers the number of pro players. This is true in any competetive sports.

    Another aspect is idea collecting - this is more of a free for all and should be available to all players beyond newbie level. But let's get back to the balance.

    When it comes to balance - from my observations at least - there is a common trend that good to very good players choose to NOT engage with t9a balance creation procedures. They are not interested in investing great amounts of energy into convincing vast amount of mediocre players that what they say is the way to go. Too much hassle, and since opinions are not weighted they are unlikely to change anything. Hence they go back to the shadows and accept the outcome as it is.

    The sad part is that from this approach every player suffers - from the top to the bottom of the table, since everyone benefits from balanced game and only really good players know this complicated game well enough to be able to construct high level balance.
  • Vazalaar wrote:

    And yes, GW will only go after you when you try to use their IP to make money. Otherwise how can you explain Warhammer Armies Project. I assume that you looked at that website. It breaths Warhammer.

    The warhammer armies project is a small time website which whilst has great ideas and is a joy to read is also full of GW IP. Point being it's small and has no credible threat to make mthem net or damage GW reputation

    T9A on the other hand could given the world wide audience it now has and the businesses it attracts to whom want to make money off of the project hence the need to ensure certain parts are distinguishable enough different

    Bugman
    http://www.bugmansbrewery.com - The largest most informative Fantasy Dwarf website on the net, covering every dwarfers needs from forum to tactics, balls to ships!

    Advisory Board

    Head of Public Relations

    Bugmans Brewery Owner (Dwarven Holds)

  • @Vazalaar please stop saying "GW will only go after you when ..." The bottom line is, you don't know how to complete that sentence. Neither do I. This is pure speculation and conjecture on your part but you are stating it as a fact. The position that you are taking is naïve. I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, it's not intended that way. But we can't be irresponsible with this project.

    The interesting thing is, we all want a living and breathing game to be around for years to come. We both want a mass ranked up fantasy war game. We both want a turn based game with stats and dice rolls, with in depth movement, shooting, a magic phase and close combat. We both want strategic list building and a tactical immersive game. What we are disagreeing about is the particular aspects of the rules.

    If you have it set in your mind that you only want to play exactly Warhammer (or something so close to it that its basically the same thing), you can do that. Please understand that your argument (about the killing off of the WH community) is not with T9A, it's with Games Workshop. As you have noted, there are a number of website out there that are providing WH. That's fine, we don't have any connection with them. But T9A can't be 9Ed WH.