Pinned Rules: Short Question - Short Answer (version 1.2 & 1.3)

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  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    Sodder wrote:

    Where do I find the "First basic principle"?

    I agree that the anvil is not a character but why would it only be considered a character is for point category purposes. To my knowledge I can't find anywhere saying it's not considered a character all the time. That's what's said on page 15.
    The first basic principle is a universal principle for games. It honestly doesn't need to be written down, but I think it might be in the BRB somewhere.
    But we're basically dealing with a case where a specific rule explicitly says 'the general rule doesn't apply'. Surely when given specific instruction not to follow the general rule, we shouldn't ignore it - it necessarily implies that basic principle.

    @Lagerlof @Shlagrabak @youngseward
    No, this is not written anywhere. How would you play it if it was instead written "All unit entries that belong to this Category are also considered Characters and ..."? Would it be obvious that specifics override general statements?

    It's the problem of using slightly heterogeneous vocabulary. Some people will read a difference in it, but it doesn't necessarily indicate more than a variation of language. If you look at the BRB and look at the context, you see that the phrase "to be considered" is used to establish new definitions.
    "Everything that stands on the same base is considered the same model"
    "The extent of the model is considered to be its base."
    "Two units are considered in base contact with each other if the rectangles formed by the outermost edges of their Footprints (called Boundary Rectangle) are touching one another, including corner to corner contact."

    There is no intended difference between the use of "to be considered", "to be defined as", or even when language allows it "to be". The exception is (and that's where I think we should really be using the word "considered" over "defined") when something is considered to be/have a certain property, for the (sole) purpose of a specific situation. Otherwise that thing would not be considered to have that property. For example, the Great Green Idol is considered to have a Greenhide Race for the purpose of Waaargh!.
    As with any piece of text, logic need you to define a general statement before mentioning any exceptions to it - it is impossible to make it the other way around. That's what's happening between this two rules, that's also why we don't define that logic rule (it would be a tautology).

    But to be honest, fine tuning the vocabulary is really difficult in the project. First, there is a multitude of writers, which means a lot of diversity in writing styles patched together - some of which remains even after review. And second, the more you fine tune it, the higher the sensitivity of the readers to differences in the language. What used to be understood as good enough for common sense now gets questioned through inductive reasoning. "If that was true, why would you not use the exact same words? They did streamline that other rule, which means the exact wording is important." It sort of has no end. That isn't to say that we should keep streamlining the wording, I'm just trying to get you a feel of the situation.

    TL;DR
    In this case, please read "is considered a character" and "is not a character" on the same level. The answer to this question lies in the anvil rule: it's not a character, but it counts towards the Category "Characters" for point allowance, which is an exception to the general rule of the BRB that such entries are normally characters.

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  • HumanClay wrote:

    Shlagrabak wrote:

    Irish Wargamer wrote:

    HumanClay wrote:

    On Hard Terrain it says : "Models always ignore the Terrain Piece they are currently inside."

    So if a unit stands in a ruin and then walk out, do they take dangerous terrain test or not?


    Ps. quote when answering please and if possible point to page reference in rulebook/army book, and if other people then moderators answer then please can a moderator like his/reply after to confirm they were right
    In work so can't find a quote but I believe hard terrain you're referencing relates to shooting modifiers i.e. if I unit is in a wood shooting out they don't incur the woods penalty when shooting out at someone
    That's correct.
    I could have been clearer maybe :) No, my question was regarding to taking dangerous terrain test or not when standing inside on the start of the player turn and then walk out during movement phase. Basically does this sentence under Hard Terrain headline "Models always ignore the Terrain Piece they are currently inside." only apply to shooting, or does it also mean the ignore the effects of the terrain otherwise when moving, that is treating it as dangerous terrain? I guessed it was referring to shooting and cover only, but wasn't 100% sure.
    It only applies to shooting and not Dangerous terrain.
    As you can see from the context, Hard Terrain deals only about shooting and cover. This sentence is only completing the meaning of the previous one.

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  • Hi,

    does Besheluk’s Mechanism (40 pts) work when I use the ring of fire?

    Besheluk’s Mechanism (40 pts)When the bearer Successfully casts a non-attribute spellfrom Pyromancy, choose a Kadim Incarnate or KadimTitan unit within 18" of the bearer.If the unit is solely composed of Kadim Incarnates itrecovers D3 Wounds. If it is a Kadim Titan it recovers 1wound. No unit may be affected by this effect more thanonce each magic phase.
    If your opponent of the opinion that all has to be according to probability. Tell him there is something called standard deviation.
    If your opponent is annoyed there is a standard deviation. Tell him to play chess ;)
  • Traumdieb wrote:

    Hi,

    does Besheluk’s Mechanism (40 pts) work when I use the ring of fire?

    Besheluk’s Mechanism (40 pts)When the bearer Successfully casts a non-attribute spellfrom Pyromancy, choose a Kadim Incarnate or KadimTitan unit within 18" of the bearer.If the unit is solely composed of Kadim Incarnates itrecovers D3 Wounds. If it is a Kadim Titan it recovers 1wound. No unit may be affected by this effect more thanonce each magic phase.
    The bearer of the bound-spell providing item is still the caster of the spell, so i believe it does.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.
  • Traumdieb wrote:

    Hi,

    does Besheluk’s Mechanism (40 pts) work when I use the ring of fire?

    Besheluk’s Mechanism (40 pts)When the bearer Successfully casts a non-attribute spellfrom Pyromancy, choose a Kadim Incarnate or KadimTitan unit within 18" of the bearer.If the unit is solely composed of Kadim Incarnates itrecovers D3 Wounds. If it is a Kadim Titan it recovers 1wound. No unit may be affected by this effect more thanonce each magic phase.
    Yes as it is still considered as a spell which has been successfully cast. The attribute is triggered if a spell of that lore is successfully cast. Since it's a spell it triggers the attribute and therefor you can heal the wounds
  • Hi everyone, quick question regarding pursuits and new charges, the underlined part in particular:

    "In case this Pursuit movement would bring the unit into contact with an enemy unit, it automatically declares a
    Charge against said unit, using its pursuit distance roll as its Charge roll (unless the Charge is impossible to
    complete). This Charge follows all the rules for Charges except that no Charge Reactions are allowed. Determine in
    which Facing the charge is carried out towards before the initial pivot. This process may create new combats. If a
    unit joins a Combat that has already been fought or was created during this Close Combat Phase, it will be resolved
    in the next Combat Phase (with the charging unit still counting as charging). Otherwise, the unit will have a chance
    to fight and pursue again this turn."

    Let's take 2 friendly units (A1 and A2) and 2 enemy units (B1 and B2). In the same turn, A1 charges B1 and A2 charges B2. A1 vs B1 combat is resolved first, A1 wins, pursuits into unit B2. Questions:
    - A1 attacks again, or must wait for the next turn? (as in "If a unit joins a Combat that has already been fought or was created during this Close Combat Phase, it will be resolved in the next Combat Phase")
    - Even if A1 doesn't attack this turn, does it contributes to the combat resolution with standard, ranks, and so on?
    - If B2 flees, can A1 pursuit together with A2?

    Thanks in advance for your answers!
  • 2zeta wrote:

    wombat wrote:

    Yes A1 will get to fight again.
    So the part "or was created during this Close Combat Phase, it will be resolved in the next Combat Phase" is wrong?
    Thanks again!
    If you charge a unit the combat is "created" in the movement phase of that turn. That "or was created in this combat phase" would only apply if A1 charged B1, A2 charged B2 (in movement phase) then say A1 beats B1 and over runs into a B3 then A2 over runs into B3 also.
    Hope that explains it not sure if I worded it well enough
  • Hey again, thanks for all the answers so far!
    I now seek a short answer about the interaction between Bluffer's Helm and Shard of Cenyrn.

    So what happened was that we had one character each on a Chariot with Bluffer's Helm, I was Ong player and he was HE with Shard of Cenyrn as well. When he wounded me the discussion arrived, obviously he wanted me to use my Bluffer's Helm re-roll first, and then make me re-roll all successful saves because of his Shard of Cenyrn. I obviously wanted the reversed thing.

    After the match I read old replys here in faq and think I got it, but just want a clear yes or not answer to be sure I understand it correct, is the following the correct way or not?

    So this is after the attacker has hit and wound, plus decided whether to re-roll any of them. My defending character with Bluffer's Helm then first makes the attacker re-roll his successful to-wound rolls, then after that I have to re-roll all successful rolls because of his Shard of Cenyrn. Correct?
  • HumanClay wrote:

    Hey again, thanks for all the answers so far!
    I now seek a short answer about the interaction between Bluffer's Helm and Shard of Cenyrn.

    So what happened was that we had one character each on a Chariot with Bluffer's Helm, I was Ong player and he was HE with Shard of Cenyrn as well. When he wounded me the discussion arrived, obviously he wanted me to use my Bluffer's Helm re-roll first, and then make me re-roll all successful saves because of his Shard of Cenyrn. I obviously wanted the reversed thing.

    After the match I read old replys here in faq and think I got it, but just want a clear yes or not answer to be sure I understand it correct, is the following the correct way or not?

    So this is after the attacker has hit and wound, plus decided whether to re-roll any of them. My defending character with Bluffer's Helm then first makes the attacker re-roll his successful to-wound rolls, then after that I have to re-roll all successful rolls because of his Shard of Cenyrn. Correct?
    Okay, here's how it ends up working:

    Shard let's him reroll all his to-hits.

    Shard let's him reroll all his to-wounds. Bluffer's forces him to reroll successful to wounds. You can only reroll a given die once, so he can't rr from bluffers and then choose to reroll all of them. So if he wants to reroll all his to wounds, bluffers effectively doesn't do anything (as he's rerolling those dice anyway, and can only reroll them once). If he doesn't want to reroll, he has to reroll successes because of bluffers. (So if he fails to wound even once on the initial roll, he probably wants to use the shard here). Basically, Shard, when vs. bluffer's, becomes 'and you can also reroll your failed to wounds'.

    And then you have to reroll any successful saves. Saves happen after wounds, so this clearly happens last.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.
  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    HumanClay wrote:

    Hey again, thanks for all the answers so far!
    I now seek a short answer about the interaction between Bluffer's Helm and Shard of Cenyrn.

    So what happened was that we had one character each on a Chariot with Bluffer's Helm, I was Ong player and he was HE with Shard of Cenyrn as well. When he wounded me the discussion arrived, obviously he wanted me to use my Bluffer's Helm re-roll first, and then make me re-roll all successful saves because of his Shard of Cenyrn. I obviously wanted the reversed thing.

    After the match I read old replys here in faq and think I got it, but just want a clear yes or not answer to be sure I understand it correct, is the following the correct way or not?

    So this is after the attacker has hit and wound, plus decided whether to re-roll any of them. My defending character with Bluffer's Helm then first makes the attacker re-roll his successful to-wound rolls, then after that I have to re-roll all successful rolls because of his Shard of Cenyrn. Correct?
    Okay, here's how it ends up working:
    Shard let's him reroll all his to-hits.

    Shard let's him reroll all his to-wounds. Bluffer's forces him to reroll successful to wounds. You can only reroll a given die once, so he can't rr from bluffers and then choose to reroll all of them. So if he wants to reroll all his to wounds, bluffers effectively doesn't do anything (as he's rerolling those dice anyway, and can only reroll them once). If he doesn't want to reroll, he has to reroll successes because of bluffers. (So if he fails to wound even once on the initial roll, he probably wants to use the shard here). Basically, Shard, when vs. bluffer's, becomes 'and you can also reroll your failed to wounds'.

    And then you have to reroll any successful saves. Saves happen after wounds, so this clearly happens last.
    Thanks alot, I got it now, I obviously misread it a bit!
    So basically re-rolls can only happen once, if he chooses to then I can not force him, and if he chooses not to then I can force him. And after first I have to re-roll successful armour saves, and then successful ward/regeneration saves.
  • Irish Wargamer wrote:

    2zeta wrote:

    wombat wrote:

    Yes A1 will get to fight again.
    So the part "or was created during this Close Combat Phase, it will be resolved in the next Combat Phase" is wrong?Thanks again!
    If you charge a unit the combat is "created" in the movement phase of that turn. That "or was created in this combat phase" would only apply if A1 charged B1, A2 charged B2 (in movement phase) then say A1 beats B1 and over runs into a B3 then A2 over runs into B3 also.Hope that explains it not sure if I worded it well enough
    Yes, that explains all, thank you!

    Another quick question:
    - can a unit keep on overrunning and charging, or pursuing and charging, a limitless number of enemy units in the same combat phase, as long as the conditions "If a unit joins a Combat that has already been fought or was created during this Close Combat Phase, it will be resolved in the next Combat Phase (with the charging unit still counting as charging)" are not met?
  • New

    Todesbrot wrote:

    If you have Wizard's Hood and Essence of a Free Mind in your Army, in which order do you determine your paths? Can you Roll for the Wizard's Hood Path and then react to it with the Essence?
    You get a random path, Essence have no effect.
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  • New

    Lagerlof wrote:

    Todesbrot wrote:

    If you have Wizard's Hood and Essence of a Free Mind in your Army, in which order do you determine your paths? Can you Roll for the Wizard's Hood Path and then react to it with the Essence?
    You get a random path, Essence have no effect.
    I think you misunderstood me:
    I have a Character with Wizard's Hood AND a Character with Essence of a Free Mind, in which order are the paths determined?

    If Wizard's Hood gives me, for example, Divination, can I go "Oh, ok, so I'll pick Pyromancy on my (normal) Wizard."?
  • New

    I'd say you can choose the order you generate spells with wizards (which is when all these decisions would be made). So if you want to check hood first, do so.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.
  • New

    Todesbrot wrote:

    Lagerlof wrote:

    Todesbrot wrote:

    If you have Wizard's Hood and Essence of a Free Mind in your Army, in which order do you determine your paths? Can you Roll for the Wizard's Hood Path and then react to it with the Essence?
    You get a random path, Essence have no effect.
    I think you misunderstood me:I have a Character with Wizard's Hood AND a Character with Essence of a Free Mind, in which order are the paths determined?

    If Wizard's Hood gives me, for example, Divination, can I go "Oh, ok, so I'll pick Pyromancy on my (normal) Wizard."?
    Yeah sorry.

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    I'd say you can choose the order you generate spells with wizards (which is when all these decisions would be made). So if you want to check hood first, do so.
    Agree.
    Rules Questions?
    Moderator Requests

    ETC 2016 - Referee
    ETC 2017 Warm-up Herford - Head Judge
    ETC 2017 Salamanca - Head Judge