Idea to change Goblins and Grotlings to make horde tactics more viable [poll].

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  • Idea to change Goblins and Grotlings to make horde tactics more viable [poll].

    Do you think decreasing goblins and grotlings S for small cost decrease is a good idea? 44
    1.  
      No (20) 45%
    2.  
      No - Some other change is necessary (14) 32%
    3.  
      Yes (10) 23%
    Hi all.

    First of all sorry for any spelling mistakes.

    Another idea for 1.3 that could IMO benefit O&G and make us more into desired horde army. Aside from merging Edbashers and Orcs (see: the-ninth-age.com/index.php?th…edbashers-and-orcs-merge/) there is another change to our basic troops proposed by @theunwantedbeing in here: O&G official feedback thread.

    This idea goes like this: Decrease goblin S to 2 and reduce their points. There 3 reasons to do that:
    1) Reduction in point costs of goblins across the board would mean we could field more of them. This would greatly help horde pleystyle (mostly with common goblins if forced upgrades on forest and cave goblins will not go away, but still).
    2) It is more cosistent with models. Goblin models are smaller than most S3 models (for example human models) so it stands to reason they are weaker.
    3) It would make goblin more diferent from orcs (especially if edbasher and Orc merge would happen giving Orcs S4 in some manner) so there would be less overlap and less chance of internal balance conflict (wich goblins are winnig so far due to their cost :)).

    Of course for it to have sense not only goblin infantry should change:
    1) Make all R&F and parts of models that are goblins to S2 and reduce S of some goblin characters (witchdoctors defienetly to S2 and maybe, MAYBE chieftains to S3?, Kings I think should be left as they are).
    2) Make grotlings S1 and decrease cost for the sake of completness and logic. Since Grotlings are smaller than Goblins they should be weaker.

    Ok now analisis of changes to units that would be caused by this.
    Goblins - Pure and simple S2 and point reduction (how much is up to the 9th age team). This would eanble player to buy bigger units, consistent with horde tactics.
    Shady Git and Mad Git - Shady gits and Mad gits shlould not be change IMO. Mad gits are something diferent entirely and they base their strane on their mental state and this humongous metal ball. Shady gits are kind of champion/ninja/special gits so S3 for them is kind of ok. Optionally Shady gits could be reduced in future if they prove to be to powerfull.
    Goblin Raiders - Ok for this guys S reduction is quite impactfull. It is not like they have massive hit power. But S3 on them can have meaning, especially if they are designed for warmachine hunting. I see 2 ways to do this:
    a) Decrease their S to 2 with very minor pint decrease but give them light lances as standard (included in cost) and Lances as buyable option. This way they will be identical in CC as currently if charging.

    b) Make them S2 and decrease their cost more than in a). This could make them competetive as far as internal balance goes against gnasher dashers as both are in special and as far as damage goes dashers are superior. With S3 there is little incentive to take Raiders becouse their only merit is better speed. But with small point diference this might not be enough.

    Goblin Wolf Chariot - S2 on gobbos is ok. It is not like 3 gobbo attacs make that much diference. Goblin chariot is taken for impact hits and ability to manover. Slight point decreas would not hurt either. Maby even we would see units of those at last (not likely but hey who know)?

    Gnasher Dashers - They are all about gnashers either way. Gobbos often do not attack at all. I would not decrease their cost too as their effectiveness would change little.
    Grotlings - Logical step would be to reduce them to S1. This would be good for them as they are not about actually inflicting any kind of damage. Decreasing their cost would mean units bigger than 2 could be more apealing as roadblocks making them not only cheap redirectors of 2 but also medium roadblocks.

    Scrap Wagon - As with Goblin Chariot slight point decrease would inforce Scrap wagon current function as cheap delivery system of impact hits. Grotlings never made that much impact either way.

    Skewerer and Greenhide Catapults - Decreasing crew S would not have much impact. If charged they are dead either way. So I think no decrease of cost needed here. Also if Edbasher/orcs merge would go through and overseeer would be inclouded in it, he could have a little bit more impact with 1 S4 attack (right now he is not worth buing IMHO).

    Gargantula - Ok here loss of S on thise 8 attacs will not be major but will hurt a little. I would propose removing some of other nerfs for this (mandatory spider shrine, web luncher 0-1 limitation, 0-1 as mounts limitation) or slight decrease in cost. Either way it will not make Gargantula either OP or to week.



    What do you guys think? As usual comment please.

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by OminousOtter ().

  • Wolves need a buff, since they're no better than horses but are giant horse sized wolves!
    Horse
    Ws3, St3, In3, At1
    Wolf
    Ws3, St3, In3, At1

    Strength 4 wouldn't be unreasonable (even though VC Dire Wolves and WotDG Warhounds might be rather envious) and would give the unit back it's St4 attacks that you'de normally be getting from the riders with their light lances.
    Failing that just having +1 strength on the charge like Dire Wolves have would function the same.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Wolves need a buff, since they're no better than horses but are giant horse sized wolves!
    Horse
    Ws3, St3, In3, At1
    Wolf
    Ws3, St3, In3, At1

    Strength 4 wouldn't be unreasonable (even though VC Dire Wolves and WotDG Warhounds might be rather envious) and would give the unit back it's St4 attacks that you'de normally be getting from the riders with their light lances.
    Failing that just having +1 strength on the charge like Dire Wolves have would function the same.
    I think they are rather ponny sized since gobbos are smaller than humans. But still ppny sized wolf is massive beast. See game of thrones dire wolves. But your argument is sound. Raiders might be unchanged in price IF mounts would be upgrade to compensate for Raiders S loss. I have reservation that this way they are becoming more similar to gnaser dasers maby? Way to do this might be hatred for wolves and for example sticky webs (-1S for enemy without enangling youself on 1) for spiders. I do not know IF this is enough tho?

    What do you think?

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Sklodo ().

  • I put these ideas in another place, but I copied and pasted them here since that's the focus of this thread...

    My idea is to make the mounts better. If goblins are supposed to be derpy, fine. But it doesn't mean their mounts have to suck. Gnasher Dashers are good because of their mounts, not their riders.

    Make the Scuttler Spider have higher Initiative, better WS. Have you seen a spider in real life? Those things are fast! Maybe also give them a -1 Initiative debuff (cuz they gunk you with web) to units they are engaged with in the front. Maybe also 2 attacks, since they shouldn't need all 8 legs for standing.

    Make the Wolf Better. Now, it's like a Goblin riding another Goblin the Wolf is so lulzy. Boost it's WS. Horses and ponies have WS3. You'd think a wolf, a hunter, would be better than a horse, right? Maybe give them some kind of "pack rule" related to the number of wolves in the unit. Boost Initiative so they can actually do something instead of splattering even on rear charges.

    ^ The idea here is to make both relevant if they are going to be in special. I think making it so they can at least take out some kinds of bowmen (currently, I think I think they would struggle even against Peasant bowmen) would be reasonable.
  • I understand your idea of reducing Goblins S.
    It could be a good thing, but maybe you overetimate the effect on their price. Imho it is at most (if at all) 1 pt per model.

    Goblins are already dealing nearly no damage. It won't change a lot in their efficiency. Therefore their price can't be reduced a lot.

    Have you considered a Goblin Waaghboss with S3?
    We must further reduce the price for cowboys (Goblin hero on wolf as a redirector) for maybe 5 pts.
    My Proposals for : O&G Religion
  • arwaker wrote:

    I understand your idea of reducing Goblins S.
    It could be a good thing, but maybe you overetimate the effect on their price. Imho it is at most (if at all) 1 pt per model.

    Goblins are already dealing nearly no damage. It won't change a lot in their efficiency. Therefore their price can't be reduced a lot.

    Have you considered a Goblin Waaghboss with S3?
    We must further reduce the price for cowboys (Goblin hero on wolf as a redirector) for maybe 5 pts.
    I do not expect huge point reduction. Point maybe two per model. But with gobo numbers even one point means aditionnal gobbo for every 5 in the unit.

    As for cowboys I am not certain how to threat them.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Sklodo wrote:

    As for cowboys I am not certain how to threat them.
    I'd be sad if Goblin heroes were S3. That'd be painful.

    But, @arwaker is right. At most, it would be a very small point drop. Even 1 pt seems too much of a decrease on an already cheap unit. Maybe instead make their weapon options cheaper. After all, if they are just going to stand there and parry anyway, their price shouldn't be reduced even if they get -1 S.
  • lostminstrel wrote:

    Sklodo wrote:

    As for cowboys I am not certain how to threat them.
    I'd be sad if Goblin heroes were S3. That'd be painful.
    But, @arwaker is right. At most, it would be a very small point drop. Even 1 pt seems too much of a decrease on an already cheap unit. Maybe instead make their weapon options cheaper. After all, if they are just going to stand there and parry anyway, their price shouldn't be reduced even if they get -1 S.
    You say that AS S for gobbos have no meaning. I agree this is not their maun fynction. But loss of S will alsi mean heavier losses on combat resolution, witch after loss of steadfast can mean they brake one trn earlier. It will also decrease effectiveness of spears vs. Cav. So i woud say some point decrease is in order. Not much mind you, defienetky no more than 2 and propably 1.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Sklodo wrote:

    Poll is going poorly only 8 votes so far :(.
    Could be because the Orc/Headbasher thread went well. If Orcs become WS3 S4 as standard, then the need to lower gobbos S to make them feel different is no longer a major one. Already, gobbos are so cheap, so a cost decrease won't be a major one. What's really important is that Orcs feel distinct from gobbos in some way.
  • If gobbos get to S2, I'd give them Fight in Extra Ranks as well. It would work quite well as a representation of how they would fight, I think.
    Though I have no idea if the units would be functional then, since I'm not a green skin player... (but I'd love to have a full gob army some day!)
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  • If Goblins went down to 4 pts standard then yes. Or 5pts and spears and/or shields free. Then S2 would be acceptable.

    As it is without any change to strength, I don't see how goblins are so much better than Vermin Swarm Slaves (which are 4pts per model).

    I'd love to see Goblins serve the same role as slaves do for VS (and in the same numbers!).

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Gidgee ().

  • Alexbbr wrote:

    I'm for decreasing goblins strengh only if in the same way there is a increase of orcs strengh. They are a mountain of muscles, after all. Strengh 3 for them is just humilating.

    Then there will be a real difference between goblins and orcs, and orcs will become a more available choise, I hope.
    See Edbashers and Orcs merge thread that is exactly what is proposed there.

    And if you like idea Vote in the poll at the begining of this thread!

    Bestr egards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • lostminstrel wrote:

    Sklodo wrote:

    Poll is going poorly only 8 votes so far :(.
    Could be because the Orc/Headbasher thread went well. If Orcs become WS3 S4 as standard, then the need to lower gobbos S to make them feel different is no longer a major one. Already, gobbos are so cheap, so a cost decrease won't be a major one. What's really important is that Orcs feel distinct from gobbos in some way.
    That is not it. I do not meant poorly as in votes for no. I meant poorly as in few votes at all :). And I bielieve even further distinction between orcs and gobbos would be a good idea.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Sklodo ().

  • As a mono-goblin player I don't really like this idea. With Strength 2 my blocks cannot hope to grind down anymore units that I would have previously damaged through a good deal of mad gits and gnashers sacrifice. It also makes most magic buffs much less viable on goblins.
    I can understand where the desire to further separate orcs and goblins is coming from, for the people that play combined lists, but in my opinions there are other ways to do that, especially since regardless of that change I think people would continue to push for S4 orcs. S2 goblins and S4 Born to fight orcs is in my opinion overkill as a gap.