Pinned HE General and News - Discussion

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The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

  • Fnarrr wrote:

    Its a spell you can't dispel, autocast on 0.3 dice.

    @Adam, that table is misleading as hell though, and HbE have 3 entries which can have spells considering commanders and princes can go MoCT.
    I went technical in the way that RT seems to count entries. The same way that reaver chariot crewman bows were part of HBE 'strength' in small arms fire.

    I do not believe that HBE are clearly supreme in magic comparing to other elven races regardless if you check that on battlefield or counting entries (which I believe is stupid but definitely was used as an argument for other strengths, probably should have stated that more clearly).

    As far as prince and commander having a possibility to cast spells I counted entries in army book - so in their case honor as an entry since that is what I believe is the methodology used for determining complexity and number of entries related to ASAW. If I am wrong feel free to correct me.
    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HbE, VC and lots of terrain)
    My battle reports: Adam Battle reports
    Sea Guard homebrew: Sea Guard
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    @Aenarion43

    And worse, VC can build an even killier character with 4++ and similar attack shenanigans, except on an S5R5A5 chassis and with a mount. But that wasn't a problem...
    Based off of another long thread in a different forum that bacame very heated i think the intent is that certain armies can achieve that level of eliteness while others aren't meant to. VC and WDG are meant to with their combat lords
    That wasn't the primary motivation for the HWotF nerfs. It was declared to be 'unfun to play against'. Surely the same would apply to a VC Vampire Lord who was more powerful in pretty much every way.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • Fnarrr wrote:

    ^ amethyst crystal. And then 3 honours, the two mage ones and MoCT.
    Technically gleaming robe too, but that one is just weird.
    lets be realistic here, you will often see single wizards next to BRB items like the crystal ball and binding scroll that screw single wizards big time. at best you will have a mage + moct bsb. they will get the book as magic item and thats it. more is not practical at all because you dont get to cast more but only have more to select from. HBE have alot of choices to select from for sure. they are good but not outstanding though and very expensive aswell. it is not like you can include everything in your list and then proceed to murder stuff, you are still limited by magic dice and more investment into magic butchers your already low body count.

    imho the best items are still the ones in the BRB. binding scroll or +2 to cast for nonmaster wizards to eat dispel dice are very very good if used correctly.
  • A choice that I have seen in several lists is Asfad Wizard Master with Essence of a Free Mind and Talisman of the Void or Vambraces. The Paths are Pyro and Divination to have a good Path choice vs squishy armies and vs tough armies.
    I think he is pretty unique for HBE because of the increased range, since he does not depend on other Casters for Divination extra range and the extra range for Pyromancy allows him to be safe while dealing damage.

    Perhaps this kind of combination is an example of HBE strength in Magic. Thoughts?
    "It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was Us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things."
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!
  • Adam wrote:

    Fnarrr wrote:

    ^ amethyst crystal. And then 3 honours, the two mage ones and MoCT.
    Technically gleaming robe too, but that one is just weird.
    We can be technical all we want but realistically speaking my magic phase is not stronger or more flexible than DE or SE. Not to mention that both SE and DE have wizard conclave units and SE have ultra durable wizards in form of treefathers. I'm not saying that HBE magic is weaker but it doesn't shine either.
    Edit if we really want to be technical (the same way as reaver chariot bows were counted towards HBE 'strength' in small arms fire):

    HBESEDE
    entries who can cast spells on their own1 (mage)4 (2 trees, druid, conclave)2 (oracle, conclave)
    magic related honors/items6 (3 honors, 3 items)03 (items)
    bound spells and similar rules1 (asfad)41 (medusa)


    Please bear in mind that I find this 'counting of entries' stupid method to determine army proficiency in certain area but I included it for completeness of the argument.

    So while HBE win in having magic related honors they loose in number of bounds and number of natural casters, to me it certainly isn't clear from that that they are magic dominant.

    Ciara wrote:

    Adam wrote:

    We can be technical all we want but realistically speaking my magic phase is not stronger or more flexible than DE or SE. Not to mention that both SE and DE have wizard conclave units and SE have ultra durable wizards in form of treefathers. I'm not saying that HBE magic is weaker but it doesn't shine either.
    Edit if we really want to be technical:

    HBESEDE
    entries who can cast spells on their own1 (mage)4 (2 trees, druid, conclave)2 (oracle, conclave)
    magic related honors/items6 (3 honors, 3 items)03 (items)
    bound spells and similar rules1 (asfad)41 (medusa)


    So while HBE win in having magic related honors they loose in number of bounds and number of natural casters, to me it certainly isn't clear from that that they are magic dominant.
    Whats the point of saying that teeefather is super durable caster? Sometimes you are much more safer in plain bunker. We are talking about how strong magic phase you can have. I can too "whine" how hbe have bsb and mage in one model or can do really fighty mage on dragon. Reeee
    How did you counted 4 bound spells or similar rules for se? You counted treesinging on each different army entry?
    are dryads mages? I thought that they need to buy an upgrade ot be ones. Just like, say, hbe commander or prince, which somehow isn't counted here
  • cptcosmic wrote:

    [...] more is not practical at all because you dont get to cast more but only have more to select from. HBE have alot of choices to select from for sure. they are good but not outstanding though and very expensive aswell. it is not like you can include everything in your list and then proceed to murder stuff, you are still limited by magic dice and more investment into magic butchers your already low body count.
    [...]
    Welcome to any other army's magic phase I guess. :love:

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Dancaarkiiel ().

  • cptcosmic wrote:

    Fnarrr wrote:

    ^ amethyst crystal. And then 3 honours, the two mage ones and MoCT.
    Technically gleaming robe too, but that one is just weird.
    lets be realistic here, you will often see single wizards next to BRB items like the crystal ball and binding scroll that screw single wizards big time. at best you will have a mage + moct bsb. they will get the book as magic item and thats it. more is not practical at all because you dont get to cast more but only have more to select from. HBE have alot of choices to select from for sure. they are good but not outstanding though and very expensive aswell. it is not like you can include everything in your list and then proceed to murder stuff, you are still limited by magic dice and more investment into magic butchers your already low body count.
    imho the best items are still the ones in the BRB. binding scroll or +2 to cast for nonmaster wizards to eat dispel dice are very very good if used correctly.
    The banner is good too, especially as it has synnergy with the Hereditary.
    Hristo Nikolov
  • Maybe look into making the frost phoenix into a magic conclave-type thing, instead of its aura ability that no one seems to like. It could cast Chilling Howl. And as a side effect, scarification will make it scarier in combat
    And other 2-3 spells to choose from, what will you suggest? Ice&Fire and Perception of Strength seem fitting.
  • Ciara wrote:

    Shino wrote:

    are dryads mages? I thought that they need to buy an upgrade ot be ones. Just like, say, hbe commander or prince, which somehow isn't counted here
    Yes, they need to be upgraded. Same with teeefather ancient ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    I have explained my methodology above. It seems to be how RT is counting number of entries for the purposes of complexity and assessing compliance with ASAW. If I am mistaken I'll gladly correct that :)

    That is exactly the same way as bows of elein reavers (upgrade) or bows of reaver chariot crews (laughable) were counted towards HBE 'strength' in small arms fire.
    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HbE, VC and lots of terrain)
    My battle reports: Adam Battle reports
    Sea Guard homebrew: Sea Guard
  • AlexCat wrote:

    Maybe look into making the frost phoenix into a magic conclave-type thing, instead of its aura ability that no one seems to like. It could cast Chilling Howl. And as a side effect, scarification will make it scarier in combat
    And other 2-3 spells to choose from, what will you suggest? Ice&Fire and Perception of Strength seem fitting.
    I like the idea of either Awaken the Beast or Savage Fury, personally - basically directing the frostie into more of a combat role.

    If we are talking full rework, I'd say merge both phoenix types into one Phoenix, standardize their profiles, make it Wizard Conclave with mandatory Ice & Fire and a choice between Chilling Howl & something from Pyromancy, and then maybe that choice would alter its sweeping attacks to match Ice & Fire.

    I feel like the fate of the Phoenix would be background driven though. Are the two phoenixes separate species? Are they different life stages of the same thing? How quickly does a phoenix switch between those life stages? Is it linked to the Cosmology fluff and Fire / Ice are representations of Cosmos / Chaos?


    On a self-indulgent side note, I ordered my elves today. Wheee!
    Hristo Nikolov
  • cptcosmic wrote:

    it is not like you can include everything in your list and then proceed to murder stuff, you are still limited by magic dice and more investment into magic butchers your already low body count.


    imho the best items are still the ones in the BRB. binding scroll or +2 to cast for nonmaster wizards to eat dispel dice are very very good if used correctly.
    Exactly. Magic Power is hard capped by your power dice. Which isn't really taken into account.

    Must say that HbE isn't on top what access to extra Veil tokens is concerned. We may have 1-2 mages, Void thing and Becalming Banner for a +3 or +4 max. We have no conclaves like Stygiosaurs or Dark Acolytes that grant extra tokens for each upgrade. We don't have cheap Adepts nor do we have Moraec’s Reaping, Ritual Bloodletter or Skull Fetish to get extra tokens juist for being in combat. Nor a Gut Roarer Big Name that gives Fear and Channel (1) - for just 45 pts (even cheaper than Talisman of the Void).


    I would really love to see some of our Armybook items being replaced with some stuff that gives Veil tokens.
    The suggestion to give Phoenixes a Channel (1) I read about was a good one.
    This forum need polls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Playing/painting: SA, DE & HbE ..

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Teowulff ().

  • @Fnarrr

    #WeGotThoseAnswers

    I can't find them right now, but I definitely remember that the explanations all got posted for those things during the 2.0 spoilers.

    Phoenix is 1 species, Fire. Frost has a Supernal infused into it, thus altering it on a basic level. They are not "life stages". I'd draw the parallel into something like a Witcher. Fire Phoenix is a regular human. Frost is a Witcher (modified and altered with magic for a different purpose). There is no "switching" between life stages. There is no link to Cosmology/Ice and Fire/Cosmos and Chaos.

    Linking both the Phoenix and the Rider to magic was discussed, but declined during the design phase of 2.0. The reason being that Flame Wardens do not have any distinct spellcasting potential, while Phoenixes are not able to USE magic. Admittedly, I do not remember if they are able to channel it in other ways (e.g. a Dragon flying despite having "A Body Incredibly Not Suited To Flying"). However, that would be represented by innate effects (e.g. Frost Aura or Fire Grinds) rather than the ability to cast spells.
    My army has rocks, papers, and scissors. The reason you lost this war is that you thought we were playing checkers at every battle. - Anon. Highborn Elf Prince.
    Highborn Master of the Infantry and aspiring Equitaininan Champion of the Lady.

    Playtester

    DL Army Community Support

  • Aenarion43 wrote:

    Linking both the Phoenix and the Rider to magic was discussed, but declined during the design phase of 2.0. The reason being that Flame Wardens do not have any distinct spellcasting potential, while Phoenixes are not able to USE magic. Admittedly, I do not remember if they are able to channel it in other ways (e.g. a Dragon flying despite having "A Body Incredibly Not Suited To Flying"). However, that would be represented by innate effects (e.g. Frost Aura or Fire Grinds) rather than the ability to cast spells.
    I think its worth pointing out that there is no references in the current book to the dude riding the Phoenix being a flame warden.

    I think the not-having-distinct-spellcasting-potential part needs re-discussing. If army ASAW is magic, that needs to be represented outside of characters. If nobody in HbE society outside of characters actively uses magic, that's fine too, but that is no longer an army strength as defined by background.
    Hristo Nikolov
  • @Fnarrr

    The rule is Warden’s Bond, and the Flame Wardens have been tied to Phoenixes previously (High Warden could once ride a Phoenix). So even though it is not explicitly stated, it is strongly implied.

    As to the “magic must be present outside of characters to be a strength”, I agree. The warden rider would be an excellent avenue to explore this. Something similar to the stygiosaur upgrade could work.

    Unfortunately, the Powers That be shot this down repeatedly in the past. In a similar vein, a Wizard Conclave of some kind was ALSO shot down. Bound spells outside of characters are also apparently frowned upon (see, removal of Ice and Fire from Sloops). So it seems that, like our “strength” in Small Arms and in Stopping Magic, Highborn elves really don’t have a strength in the actual definition of the word.
    My army has rocks, papers, and scissors. The reason you lost this war is that you thought we were playing checkers at every battle. - Anon. Highborn Elf Prince.
    Highborn Master of the Infantry and aspiring Equitaininan Champion of the Lady.

    Playtester

    DL Army Community Support