Pinned HE General and News - Discussion

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  • Are you sure?
    Token of Lust (40 pts) - Daemons of Lust only.

    The bearer can cast Spectral Blades from Evocation as a
    Bound Spell with Power Level (4/8).
    Necromantic Staff ( 80 pts ) - Wizards only

    Dominant. The bearer gains Channel (1). The bearer may
    cast the first Boosted version (6" Aura) of Arise! as a
    Bound Spell with Power Level (4/8).
    Unholy Tome (50 pts) - Wizards only.

    Dominant. The bearer can cast Danse Macabre from
    Evocation as a Bound Spell with Power Level (4/8).
    Besheluk’s Mechanism (50 pts) - Wizards only.

    Dominant.
    The bearer can cast a Bound Spell with Power Level
    (4/8), Range 24", Type: Augment, Duration: Instant.
    The target Raises a number of Health Points as given
    below (units not on the list are unaffected by the spell):
    Disciples of Lugar: 4 Health Points.
    Kadim Incarnates: 2 Health Points.
    Kadim Titan: 1 Health Point.


    In the end, it all comes down to one simple question: would you buy it separately (even with no item slot spent on it). Personally, my answer is no.
  • I wouldnt buy it for a 20 pts.
    I played enough games with Asfad to know how often comes the chance to effectively put it to use.
    When you buy a wizard, you buy a choice of 5-7 spells. When you buy a bound spell, you buy 1 spell, so, it must really be useful most of the time.
    Aura Raise for 30 pts (taking into account the cost of Channel), universal combat buff, movement spell ARE castable at least every second phase. Drain is not. Its a relic from the times when spells were much more expensive and powerful and there were RiP spells also (and we could cast it on 1 die - or on five - with the Book).

    The post was edited 2 times, last by AlexCat ().

  • elendor_f wrote:

    Well Bound Spells are simply an exchange Magic Dice for specific Power Level, it makes sense that casting bonuses do not apply.
    Extended Range not applicable is annoying, I agree.

    I think Drain Magic is a good option against Break the Spirit, Twisted Effigy (it will remove Evil Eye too right?), Chilling Howl, Entwining Roots, (Chaos) Altered Sight and Truth of Time (maybe Portent of Doom too). So basically things that prevent you from shooting or moving, as they are done in your own turn.
    I agree with @AlexCat that in combat pre-emptive buffs/debuffs are less frequent.

    In previous iterations wasn't Drain Magic always about making life more difficult for enemy casters? Would something like a Hex that affects a Wizard, preventing him from generating Veil Tokens be too useless? Or applying a -1 to cast, Last One Turn. It should be a cheap Learned Spell in my mind, so the effect would not be too large.
    As movement is before Magic there is no help in that area.
    Failure is not an option.
  • New

    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    elendor_f wrote:

    Well Bound Spells are simply an exchange Magic Dice for specific Power Level, it makes sense that casting bonuses do not apply.
    Extended Range not applicable is annoying, I agree.

    I think Drain Magic is a good option against Break the Spirit, Twisted Effigy (it will remove Evil Eye too right?), Chilling Howl, Entwining Roots, (Chaos) Altered Sight and Truth of Time (maybe Portent of Doom too). So basically things that prevent you from shooting or moving, as they are done in your own turn.
    I agree with @AlexCat that in combat pre-emptive buffs/debuffs are less frequent.

    In previous iterations wasn't Drain Magic always about making life more difficult for enemy casters? Would something like a Hex that affects a Wizard, preventing him from generating Veil Tokens be too useless? Or applying a -1 to cast, Last One Turn. It should be a cheap Learned Spell in my mind, so the effect would not be too large.
    As movement is before Magic there is no help in that area.
    Sorry you are right, my mistake (pretty silly actually).
    "They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
    Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
  • New

    Furion wrote:

    Highborn Lancers have ALFA PRIME male horses.
    Even heroes don't get such alfa prime horses.
    Not even Knights of Ryma.

    Offensive 4.
    Nobody noticed this mistake, as the last thing Highborn Lancers are good for is fighting :D .
    Furion about our SeaGuard (V.0.202.0): "I don't expect much of them, and indeed not much have they delivered"
  • New

    I agree with AlexCat in terms of the bound spell, I dont value it very high, it really is very situational (situational highly costed rules somehow are a running gag in the HBE book :D ). I wouldnt waste points for it when it would be a seperate upgrade like a weapon. arcane knowledge looks like to be super point efficient, +range +spell for 60 pts? hell yeah I would take this every time on a HBE mage if I could.
    The special rule the Seaguard needs to actually work on the table => "The model can shoot from the third rank and may shoot even after March Moving or Reforming earlier that Player Turn."
  • New

    I'm only speculating, but it looks to me kind of like Sylvan Blades on Pathfinders for SE. The price was set at a point where it was felt that any lower would be unbalancing, but they aren't really worth that many points, so they got Sylvan Blades added as a small, usefull, but situational, buff, to help offset the high cost. SE community suggestions to remove the Sylvan Blades, or make them optional, in exchange for a price cut where a non-starter, because it ha already been decided that they couldn't come below what they already cost.

    I wonder whether the same happened with ASFAD, and the Drain Magic was added for "free" to ease the sting of the high cost?
  • New

    Aglion wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    I also play EoS, ....I don't remember ever losing against HBE except in extreme circumstances like a special scenario or something.
    EoS is a great counter to the entire HBE book.
    Hummm, strange i feel pretty entrusted when i ear that i have to face EoS ...

    It's a kind of match-up you have to adapt youself, but it seems fairly playable.
    Interesting.
    To be honest the only HBE lists I typically have problems with are the ones with Flame Wardens and when MoCT had access to Summer Growth.
    I also ALWAYS take a mortar or two which basically makes Elite elven block armies auto-lose.
    I also take a unit of 50 halberds. ...not 28, 35, or 42. FIFTY! So all I gotta do is is peel off 1 rank with shooting from that 30 elite block of swordmasters or lion guard and my halberds win the grind. ...Flame wardens at 30 models with Summer Growth were hard to crack. Now Flame wardens are 25 and no summer growth. :)


    Kdownunder wrote:

    HE army book is in the stage that I am really happy to have two other armies. I have always selected my HE army to be brought to tournament but at the current state it feels like a suicide.

    Very happy owner of WDG & VC army.
    Very true.

    matrim wrote:

    That's why we should get standalone dragon entry in the FAB :P
    I think most of us want a unit of drake riders. But a full dragon in Ancient allies we could all live with. None of this swooping attack pheonix stuff. Dragon is meant to get up and in there!

    Aenarion43 wrote:

    Marcos24 wrote:

    I wouldnt be opposed to that, with the exception of if the HBE player nominates him for a duel of course.
    Regardless, the advantage of a bound spell would come before the opportunity to kill him anyway. Besides that, look at the bigger picture, the advantage of a bound spell isn't just how it affects the unit, but also how it affects the magic/dispel phase since they're autocast
    The question is, WHAT bound spells. IF it's something that our mages can use. . . well, it's kind of easy to guarantee it being cast with a real wizard honestly. Furthermore, if it's not a RELEVANT spell, then what's the point? For example, Sword Masters being able to cast Altered Sight is decidedly "meh" (as it's only relevant against a small number of armies). The Powers That Be are already quite okay with one of the "masters of magic" races being decidedly deficient in Path Access (having only 3 on mages and a 4th one ONLY behind a Paywall). Regardless, I'm fairly certain at least one RT member has axed this proposal under the current design guidelines for the book. To be fair, it makes little sense for champions to suddenly cast magic. What enables a Sword Master champion to suddenly be able to cast, when he's been pouring all of his stat points and skill points into "choppy choppy".
    I think that before we start talking about anything like this, we NEED to figure out what our book is going to be. . . and then the community decide if it's going to be onboard. Because I sure know that if I'm told "you get Gunline Highborn Elves and Shooting Avoidance Highborn Elves as your Army Builds and Playstyles", I might just peace out (definitely of the army, possibly of the project). Once a set of FUNCTIONAL design guidelines is set up for the Army book in a way that the community appreciates, THEN we can more forward. Unfortunately, as long as our book has weaknesses masquerading as strengths (Small Arms Fire), harsh weaknesses (toughness, numbers) with soft strengths (HEAVILY limited medium arms fire), and "opt in" strengths that aren't overall useful ("Dispelling Magic"), then we will never be able to move forward.

    Personally, I think that making a "full ASAW" for Dread Elves while making only a preliminary for SE and HbE (and a wrong one for HbE to boot) was a mistake. Granted, the HbE being a preliminary one let us raise our voices against it, but it would have been better had a preliminary one been done for EACH of them, run by their communities, and then fleshed out after getting approval. If I'm being honest, I'd vote to move the DE FAB down (as they are currently "in the promised land of Tier 2") in exchange for one of the "waiting for 10+ years book", and then do the next set as "Dwarven Holds" (since ID will be done now) and the three elf books simultaneously. Otherwise, whichever elf book ends up #3 (or even if #2 and #3 are done simultaneously) is going to be Up The Creek Without a Paddle.

    ArchangelusM wrote:

    That is why I say that full rework is needed, as that is the only time when the changes implemented will be able to be of wide enough scope and without of differing requirements that are microfocused on particular issue and do not care about the wider book or design principles. :D
    Hopefully the full rework goes better for us. . . . I'd hate to have stuff simply "axed" from the book under the excuse of "9th is its own thing". Unfortunately, more than one public comment has been made to this extent by a Person in Power. Is it a bad sign that I dread our book getting its FAB more than anticipate it (granted, it's like 60/40, but yah. The fact that "nuBook" isn't 100% hypetrain excitement is bad IMO)?

    N3okorrales wrote:

    Do what i did, buy some SE minis and jump to the green train.
    I'm thinking of getting on the Purple Train TBH. I like the style more (punchy punchy, ya!), and I've been told I look quite dashing in purple (Granted, by my wife, but I'm still counting it). Though I think that I'll look into both SE and DE as well as models for each and decide which I like best. Lord knows, I may just get like 1/3 of an army of DE and 1/3 of an army of SE, and then have the ability to play full on SE, HbE, or DE by mixing and matching. :)
    Heh heh heh. HBE do swap in very well to the DE units. :evil: Especially if you are going for the close up combat army.


    I agree with all your points and been saying the same stuff for a while. T9A can't do DE book without also having a solid framework for the other 2 elf books. The army themes and the unit roles need to be fairly hashed out. Stuff like magic items and most point costs can be figured later.


    What needs to happen is that the HBE community needs to go to the Homebrew section and start work on the new book. T9A can copy it if they like, or make their own avoidance/shooty elf book that Sylvan Elves book is not allowed to have.
    I probably would have hashed out my own and tweaked it after getting feedback from the community but my technical experience is horrible so that I can't figure out how to put the stuff into a PDF format. - no one wants to read a wall of text for a home brew book, gotta put it into PDF or don't even bother.
  • New

    I Don't think an additionnal bound spell will do any trick (altough it dépends on said bound spell).

    Allow me to explain my thought.

    We had/have ;

    - frosty "casting" -1S and it was considered a second choice
    - frosty "casting" know the ennemy and it is rarely seen
    - grey watcher "casting" distracting/hard target and they too are rarely seen
    - i don't even remember which spell the skysloop had

    Several point :
    - would you take those unit if theses effects needed to be cast ? at which price (assuming it gives +1 channel) ?
    - How does that makes our magic phase stronger ? we already have a lot of spell to choose from, adding 1 won't change much-do we need/want it ?
    - assuming it would not be on core unit, and our Special section has no room for such unit (unless OP but that's not wanted), it leaves us with 3 section. Queen's bow/Naval ordnance : i Don't see a bound spell having any use if not a missile/damage (really hard to find a balance). That leaves us with AA as an option. Maybe a dragon wizard could do the trick, scarification feels really interesting on phoenix.
    - How does a bound spell/wizard conclave makes our magic phase better ( i Don't think having more spell selection is the way but that's personnal) ?

    One idea "fluffyspeaking"; could we be able to stack a veil token for each ennemy spell passing by (in the name of Energy balance) ?
    altough this does in a way mess with the opponent magic phase.




    On sea guard i had an idea (sorry to bring it back again)
    Who would like a rule "sea guard might still march even if they made a quick reformation this turn" ?
    it could take cover volley place, i think it at least suits better fluff and ASAW. On a other note, this does take them on another ground than spearmen (fighting versus escaping). They could get Def4 back too.
    Would such a move open design space for our maybe 3+ save cor cav or not ?
  • New

    AlexCat wrote:

    Following this logic, magic upgrades for Greater Daemons should super cheap!

    If you have to take them instead of combat upgrades, thus resulting in a GD that is pretty bad in combat? Yes.

    I would assume MoCT costs a bit less than it "should" (Adept is base 105 if you can just tack it on for free) for the same reason. Hybrid models need to cost less than the sum of the parts (see also Sea Guard).

    Edit: Also, extra range is better on an army that isn't just going to spam heals from little mages anyway. Having such a strong default option makes enhancements to other spells basically worthless. Asfad sees more play than the VC one as is for just this reason.
  • New

    What kind of logic is that? Weaver costs almost 1000 pts and has only magic and shooting aspects - does that mean, he doesnt get same kind of discount as vampire lords? But if he had some sort of combat aspect available together with magic ones - then there should have been a discount?
    Sounds silly if you ask me.
    Edit: Also, extra range is better on an army that isn't just going to spam heals from little mages anyway. Having such a strong default option makes enhancements to other spells basically worthless. Asfad sees more play than the VC one as is for just this reason.
    Thats just wrong.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by AlexCat ().

  • New

    I just had an idea for griffon, maybe stupid maybe not.

    change armor characteristics to 4, increase its health to 6 and give it the massive bulk rule.

    it would definately differentiate it and make it very offensive. the rider can purely focus on damage (because defensive items would be useless anyway) and it would make the griffon BSB more attractive imho.

    the values are pulled from air, it only shows the direction it is going for. how realistic would be the change in such direction for the griffon?
    The special rule the Seaguard needs to actually work on the table => "The model can shoot from the third rank and may shoot even after March Moving or Reforming earlier that Player Turn."