Pinned HE General and News - Discussion

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  • @ArchangelusM

    Masamune88 wrote:

    So what is the point of paying for a strength when it means basically nothing?

    Masamune88 wrote:

    How are we to tackle this @Giladis? Because it is an issue that will continue to be brought up until resolved.
    All I can ask for is for everyone to wait until all the armies are made compatible with ASAW. But in many cases we are looking at what is sometimes known as the "curse of the elven statline". If we want to represent elves in a way that is expected of them in fantasy settings we run into a problem that outside extreme specialisation (example SM) other less elite units will perform specific tasks better than Elves because Elves have a lot of redundant stats for the task in question while being useful in the game overall.

    So the question is not just if XXX points of Citizen Archers is equally good at shooting as XXX points of Goblins with Bows but is their overall impact within a game equal.


    As for paying for a strength? It is partially done so that Elves can have stats people expect them to have. I doubt many would be thrilled if HE Citizen Archers went to Human like stats and Aim (4+).

    Background Team

    Conceptual Design

    Rules Advisors

    THE THRONG OF NEVAZ RIG - ARMY BLOG; UPRISING 2018 - 26/27 May - Singles Tournament
  • Giladis wrote:

    @ArchangelusM

    Do HE have access to shooting that falls into Small Arms category with Aim score better than 4+?
    Do HE have access to multiple different units with ranged attacks that fall into Small Arms category?

    If the answer is yes then the HE army has Small Arms Strength as per how ASAW have been understood by the RT by this point and implemented in this game.

    But do be aware not every category has the same requirements to be considered strengths or weaknesses as these are further discussed by the RT to best fit the character of the army in question in cooperation with the BGT.

    So ASAW Armour Weakness will not manifest in the same way for Beast Herds, Orcs and Goblins and Daemon Legions.
    OK, so this proofs that there are going to be strengths and weakness much betters than others, some of them being even pointless, like small arms strength.

    Given that, if we don't want to be a bad army, we have to achieve that we get good strenghts (that have impact in the game) and "good" weaknesses (good in the sense that have not very much impact: for example, can we fill a weakness slot with small arms weakness please?)
  • Giladis wrote:

    I doubt many would be thrilled if HE Citizen Archers went to Human like stats and Aim (4+).
    • Let Citizen Archers as they are
    • drop the bows from Elein Reavers and charriots.
    • Give medium fire to Grey Watchers
    • Give medium fire to Sea Guard, but maybe with 12 or 18'' range so they're not very powerful
    This way we only have 1 unit with small arms shooting, so it is not a strength (maybe we can even consider a weakness now), use this strength for something else. Also, we have 3 units with medium fire, so strength implemented.

    With current definition of ASAW, this can be done, right?
  • naggety wrote:

    OK, so this proofs that there are going to be strengths and weakness much betters than others
    RT has been quite open about this point, as well as saying that having 5 "weaknesses doesn't mean automatically 5 "strengths" and vice versa. Army could have 7 "strengths" and 4 "weaknesses" without an issue. The goal is for armies to be different and fit the themes and tropes attached to fantasy achetypes as well as 9th Age specific elements while playing different styles from one another in the game.

    That is why there are two separate design mechanisms. One is the ASAW and the other is APPS (army preferred play styles).

    Background Team

    Conceptual Design

    Rules Advisors

    THE THRONG OF NEVAZ RIG - ARMY BLOG; UPRISING 2018 - 26/27 May - Singles Tournament
  • Izzilduuur wrote:

    What then would happen if we removed our strength in small arms fire in exchange for something like more armour? Would we then simply loose the option for bows on a few unit choices like chariots and reavers? :P
    Most likely yes, or access to Aim (3+) or (2+) on units with Small Arms Fire weapons.

    naggety wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    I doubt many would be thrilled if HE Citizen Archers went to Human like stats and Aim (4+).
    • Let Citizen Archers as they are
    • drop the bows from Elein Reavers and charriots.
    • Give medium fire to Grey Watchers
    • Give medium fire to Sea Guard, but maybe with 12 or 18'' range so they're not very powerful
    This way we only have 1 unit with small arms shooting, so it is not a strength (maybe we can even consider a weakness now), use this strength for something else. Also, we have 3 units with medium fire, so strength implemented.
    With current definition of ASAW, this can be done, right?
    Yes it could be done. Though I would have to be explored whether CA can keep Aim (3+).

    Background Team

    Conceptual Design

    Rules Advisors

    THE THRONG OF NEVAZ RIG - ARMY BLOG; UPRISING 2018 - 26/27 May - Singles Tournament
  • Giladis wrote:

    @ArchangelusM

    Masamune88 wrote:

    So what is the point of paying for a strength when it means basically nothing?

    Masamune88 wrote:

    How are we to tackle this @Giladis? Because it is an issue that will continue to be brought up until resolved.
    All I can ask for is for everyone to wait until all the armies are made compatible with ASAW. But in many cases we are looking at what is sometimes known as the "curse of the elven statline". If we want to represent elves in a way that is expected of them in fantasy settings we run into a problem that outside extreme specialisation (example SM) other less elite units will perform specific tasks better than Elves because Elves have a lot of redundant stats for the task in question while being useful in the game overall.
    So the question is not just if XXX points of Citizen Archers is equally good at shooting as XXX points of Goblins with Bows but is their overall impact within a game equal.


    As for paying for a strength? It is partially done so that Elves can have stats people expect them to have. I doubt many would be thrilled if HE Citizen Archers went to Human like stats and Aim (4+).
    Again, @Giladis , project needs to be consistent.

    We have noted and "reported" the issue of miss-alignment with ASAW and it's in game effect or lack thereof.

    And pricing of high off and deff stats on T3 6+ save shooting models, soft stats at that, should not bring such a great point difference that the equal amount of point's of goblins can outshoot the elves, especially if said goblins can have better save and parry (which outright negates the advantage in Off skill of not just archers, but any other HE CC unit in the book). So you use a problematic example here. ;)


    But, on the note of waiting for all the books to be brought in line with the ASAW, I agree with that, what I find worrying is the stance you take in this discussion towards implementing said ASAW and their in game effect.

    As that stance, if mirrored by the rest of people deciding the particular design implementation of ASAW effects, means that once again unequal application of ASAW will bring about many a problem for the project later on, especially in the community perception of the project.
    Used to be a Vampire ABC member... then an Elf lass bit me... nowadays I have this insatiable craving for cheese, whine and fancy dresses... 8| The Dawn Host of ArchangelusM

    Army Design Team

    Draecarion, may the Lord grant eternal peace to your soul, my Friend!
  • Giladis wrote:

    @ArchangelusM

    Masamune88 wrote:

    So what is the point of paying for a strength when it means basically nothing?

    Masamune88 wrote:

    How are we to tackle this @Giladis? Because it is an issue that will continue to be brought up until resolved.
    All I can ask for is for everyone to wait until all the armies are made compatible with ASAW. But in many cases we are looking at what is sometimes known as the "curse of the elven statline". If we want to represent elves in a way that is expected of them in fantasy settings we run into a problem that outside extreme specialisation (example SM) other less elite units will perform specific tasks better than Elves because Elves have a lot of redundant stats for the task in question while being useful in the game overall.
    So the question is not just if XXX points of Citizen Archers is equally good at shooting as XXX points of Goblins with Bows but is their overall impact within a game equal.


    As for paying for a strength? It is partially done so that Elves can have stats people expect them to have. I doubt many would be thrilled if HE Citizen Archers went to Human like stats and Aim (4+).
    So wait circa 3 years for full implementation of AWSW to then be shoehorned into 1 of 3 net lists without questioning the process or ideas? Really?

    Also from the above it is implied that you expect elves to be less efficient in all aspects unless in an extreme niche case like SM where all the affects of their high soft stats come to the fore in conjunction with the higher hard stats to be come an RPS unit that is widely viewed by the majority of the community as too powerful when applied correctly? DO we not see the issue with the stance?

    And i would contest massively if you where to try and tell me that somehow 20 HBE archers are anywhere near on par with 50 gobbo archers in terms of overall game impact. If you truly believe that to be the case then we have larger problems than functionality of words as the disparity in application is massive and should be incredibly apparent even at a glance.

    Yet another issue from the above is the sense that it seems RT would like us to just put up and shut up about our issues as saying "I doubt you would be thrilled..." implies that we should be grateful for being overcosted due to best case scenarios in a game based entirely on averages. This disillusionment is becoming palpable, the community aren't idiots. When are the higher ups going to stop treating them like they are and actually try to listen rather than disparage and digress to make the old boys club into a game for only 20 people?
  • I think the rules team or the balancing board should actually listen to the wishes of the (online) community. And give the armies what they want.

    So, in this case, just give the HE improved shooting. An option to buy accurate. Costing 33% of the points per model.
    There, problem solved.


    And if HBE are really that envious of goblin archers, what the hell, give them an option to buy a unit of goblin archers (just call them children/ elderly/ handicapped elven warriors). And use their superior shooting (and crappy combat stats) as much as they want.
    Another problem solved.


    The reasoning for all this is to not allow this specific thread to reach 1000 pages. If it does I heard a clinic will open (somewhere in Switzerland) that will be used to provide special care to persons that actually red all of the garbage these 1000 pages contain and lost their sanity...
  • Razon wrote:

    I think the rules team or the balancing board should actually listen to the wishes of the (online) community. And give the armies what they want.

    So, in this case, just give the HE improved shooting. An option to buy accurate. Costing 33% of the points per model.
    There, problem solved.


    And if HBE are really that envious of goblin archers, what the hell, give them an option to buy a unit of goblin archers (just call them children/ elderly/ handicapped elven warriors). And use their superior shooting (and crappy combat stats) as much as they want.
    Another problem solved.


    The reasoning for all this is to not allow this specific thread to reach 1000 pages. If it does I heard a clinic will open (somewhere in Switzerland) that will be used to provide special care to persons that actually red all of the garbage these 1000 pages contain and lost their sanity...
    only 474 pages to go! Lets do this guys!
    :HE: Beware of the panda....with big guns
  • So what I get now from this discussion:

    • Strength in ASAW means that your army is strong in something (like DH resilience) or that you are horrible in something (like HBE small arms fire).
    • Weakness in ASAW means that your army is weak in something (like HBE resilience) or that it is great in something (DH speed as in copters and parking in opponents deployment zone T1)
    • Also HBE strength in medium arms fire means that they can field 8 S5 ap3 24" shots at max, while in EoS it means that their single WM pumps 22 S5 ap3 24" shots a turn on average (mind you this WM is priced at 200pts).
    All in all these disparities are what infuriates me and no amount of word twisting will change that, because these are facts that players see on the battlefield.
    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HbE, VC and lots of terrain)
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    The post was edited 2 times, last by Adam ().

  • Razon wrote:

    I think the rules team or the balancing board should actually listen to the wishes of the (online) community. And give the armies what they want.

    So, in this case, just give the HE improved shooting. An option to buy accurate. Costing 33% of the points per model.
    There, problem solved.


    And if HBE are really that envious of goblin archers, what the hell, give them an option to buy a unit of goblin archers (just call them children/ elderly/ handicapped elven warriors). And use their superior shooting (and crappy combat stats) as much as they want.
    Another problem solved.


    The reasoning for all this is to not allow this specific thread to reach 1000 pages. If it does I heard a clinic will open (somewhere in Switzerland) that will be used to provide special care to persons that actually red all of the garbage these 1000 pages contain and lost their sanity...
    :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue:

    Elderly Elven Archers -> shoot walking sticks instead of arrows, Adv 2, March 4, T2, special rule - Stern gaze: Any unit that can draw Line of Sight to this unit's front arc crumbles under the centuries old staredown, and becomes shaken until the end of the round. :D
    Used to be a Vampire ABC member... then an Elf lass bit me... nowadays I have this insatiable craving for cheese, whine and fancy dresses... 8| The Dawn Host of ArchangelusM

    Army Design Team

    Draecarion, may the Lord grant eternal peace to your soul, my Friend!
  • ArchangelusM wrote:

    Razon wrote:

    I think the rules team or the balancing board should actually listen to the wishes of the (online) community. And give the armies what they want.

    So, in this case, just give the HE improved shooting. An option to buy accurate. Costing 33% of the points per model.
    There, problem solved.


    And if HBE are really that envious of goblin archers, what the hell, give them an option to buy a unit of goblin archers (just call them children/ elderly/ handicapped elven warriors). And use their superior shooting (and crappy combat stats) as much as they want.
    Another problem solved.


    The reasoning for all this is to not allow this specific thread to reach 1000 pages. If it does I heard a clinic will open (somewhere in Switzerland) that will be used to provide special care to persons that actually red all of the garbage these 1000 pages contain and lost their sanity...
    :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue:
    Elderly Elven Archers -> shoot walking sticks instead of arrows, Adv 2, March 4, T2, special rule - Stern gaze: Any unit that can draw Line of Sight to this unit's front arc crumbles under the centuries old staredown, and becomes shaken until the end of the round. :D
    optional combat upgrade: paired walking sticks, may parry in combat without a shield, can exchange all close combat attacks to trip enemies, halve their movement for a player turn.

    Option ranged upgrade: cats, because.
  • PadForce wrote:

    ArchangelusM wrote:

    Razon wrote:

    I think the rules team or the balancing board should actually listen to the wishes of the (online) community. And give the armies what they want.

    So, in this case, just give the HE improved shooting. An option to buy accurate. Costing 33% of the points per model.
    There, problem solved.


    And if HBE are really that envious of goblin archers, what the hell, give them an option to buy a unit of goblin archers (just call them children/ elderly/ handicapped elven warriors). And use their superior shooting (and crappy combat stats) as much as they want.
    Another problem solved.


    The reasoning for all this is to not allow this specific thread to reach 1000 pages. If it does I heard a clinic will open (somewhere in Switzerland) that will be used to provide special care to persons that actually red all of the garbage these 1000 pages contain and lost their sanity...
    :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue: :girltongue:Elderly Elven Archers -> shoot walking sticks instead of arrows, Adv 2, March 4, T2, special rule - Stern gaze: Any unit that can draw Line of Sight to this unit's front arc crumbles under the centuries old staredown, and becomes shaken until the end of the round. :D
    optional combat upgrade: paired walking sticks, may parry in combat without a shield, can exchange all close combat attacks to trip enemies, halve their movement for a player turn.
    Option ranged upgrade: cats, because.
    Nononononononononononono!

    Cats are an upgrade for the Elderly Queen's Guard Companions, also known as Crazy Old Cat Elves! :D
    Used to be a Vampire ABC member... then an Elf lass bit me... nowadays I have this insatiable craving for cheese, whine and fancy dresses... 8| The Dawn Host of ArchangelusM

    Army Design Team

    Draecarion, may the Lord grant eternal peace to your soul, my Friend!