VS Brainstorming for 2.0

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  • VS Brainstorming for 2.0

    Vermin Hulks
    Unit Type: Monstrous Beasts (For Swiftstride. VH Bodyguard keeps this also with rider)

    If more than 6 models are in the unit, half the unit cost counts towards core

    Same stats

    Equipment: Paired Weapons

    Upgrades: Champion, Fetthis Packleader Champion

    AWSR: Safety in Numbers

    Special Rules: Immune to Psychology, Thunderous Charge, Bulky

    Bulky: Units with this rule always count the first rank when calculating the leadership bonus from Safety in Numbers

    Fetthis Packleader - While this model is alive, Vermin Hulks and Vermin Hulk Bodyguards in the same unit gain Lightning Reflexes

    The post was edited 3 times, last by The Unmarked ().

  • Calisson wrote:

    New background coming in days, not weeks.
    This said, as good as it will be, it will "only" be so many pages of text plus more than 100 artwork of various sizes. Some achievement worth being proud of, but not yet the equivalent of the whole WH fluff cumulated over years. More will come over time, in particular in each full army book.

    But at least, in a couple of days everyone will get a clear idea about where the background is going.

    For Chaos, we will need a few more months before we see the new Gods detailed background. That is precisely the reason why WDG and DL are redesigned first, and both as full army books.
    Ratmen are high on the list for the very same reason - but you will see in a few days how different they will be already from WH's Skaven.

    Now, we cannot create a new background as original as we want: there is one huge constraint, which is the existing player's collections.
    For that reason, ratmen must be found somewhere, and must possess weird technology, no matter anyone's wish. What we can do - and did - is to change the story around the very same models. For example, there is nothing such as warpstone in T9A, not even with a new name.

    If people see that T9A background leads to similar models than WH, well great, that is on purpose.
    The Al-Qassar Sultanates (Homebrew)
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  • Nice cherry picking @setrius

    I am excited about knowing the background of our beloved ratmen. At the same time I am a little concerned about vermin swarm to be way too different from WH's Skaven. I mean, skaven personality, clans and background from WH was truly awesome!!
    scissors: "OMG ROCK IS SUPER OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!!" "what about paper?" "paper is fine"

    Photos of models/armies from ETC 2017:

    Cool models seen at ETC 2017
  • I've pretty much made myself a list of ten or so core characteristics of Skaven that need to be there. If any of those are gone, I'm out.

    I mean, I'm out already, playing-wise, but then I won't come back to the forum either.
    Harald Vidarsonn, Herse der Hrodgarlinger
    Er plünderte die sieben Ufer,
    Er vernichtete die drei Könige
    Er verheerte Miklagard
    Harald Vidarsson, Krakenblütig,
    War wie die See,
    Stärke der Schlangen
    Wut des Wintersturms.
  • I mean so far the impression seems to be that the Roman Empire equivalent in the setting was some sort of oppressive Rat Empire that has since fallen and become feuding clans or city states more like Renaissance Italy, but I could be wrong. That's just the drift I've gathered from what little we've seen.

    I mean that seems pretty reasonable. I mean as much as I love our loathsome ratmen and all their vile kin there are things which bug me about how Games Workshop presented them and the more recent additions to the official fluff has only made it worse. Like I hate the way gender and some of their social elements are presented. I don't like the idea of a society with queens for reproduction that isn't matriarchal. I could understand them being eusocial Blesmols rather than rats but then they'd be matriarchal and altruistic. That's like the opposite of what Skaven represent.

    Skaven are very patriarchal and selfish so it would make more sense as a society with more human caste structures. Females being roughly even to males in number, so as to be similarly expendable, with those deemed valuable socially or sexually being hoarded into harems by the male leadership and traded as a commodity in dealings, while lesser females are ignored and left to the same working conditions and oppressive lives as their lower caste male counterparts, to breed endlessly until they starve and resort to cannibalism, and then die a unmourned death before being eaten.

    Skaven are so oppressively hierarchical yet so vain and ambitious and chaotic. They really exemplify all the worst things about humans.

    Ultimately Skaven have their Caste System with clear divisions and a pyramid structure. White Furred Brahmins, Black Furred Kshatriyas, Brown Furred Vaishyas, and Pale Furred Shudras with each being essentially a distinct sub species due to segregation. Then at the very bottom are the Dalit equivalent slaves who are beyond reckoning and without consequence.

    So when Skaven go to war the Kshatriyas, on the orders of the Brahmins, take charge with their Stormvermin, Chieftains, and Warlords being of this caste. Clanrats would be militia drawn from the Vaishyas and Shudras and then Dalits are herded and whipped into the general direction of the enemy because they're filth and there are always too many of them.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Col. Tartleton ().

  • That's a quite interesting approach. Could work.

    I can see equivalents in nature to non-matriarchal queens, though. In insects, mainly. There are species where grown females are all but immobile, bloated, permanently attached to hosts as parasites, while dispersal and movement is entirely left to males. Since intelligent is costly, evolutionarily speaking, it would be an advantage if only one gender had it.
    Harald Vidarsonn, Herse der Hrodgarlinger
    Er plünderte die sieben Ufer,
    Er vernichtete die drei Könige
    Er verheerte Miklagard
    Harald Vidarsson, Krakenblütig,
    War wie die See,
    Stärke der Schlangen
    Wut des Wintersturms.
  • I am not sure I feel the new lore. Vermin swarms from the position of young 'success hungry' race have been moved to 'ancient enemies and fallen empires' category. How will that work with scratch-built cutting-edge technology patched by abused raw magic? I have the feeling it may not fit well. Unless the vermin technology will be reduced from 'latest achievements' to 'badly maintained ancient weapons'.

    This might be one blow too much for the army though. Our rats are cowards, there is nothing glorious about them, hardly anything beautiful or nice. Their best traits were their open minds (no restrictions really), never giving up (in long term) and constant silent progress. If VS will be reduced to some shadow of its former glory desperately trying to keep their ancient weapons working there won't be really anything funny about them left :(.

    I hope we will see some more VS fluff soon.
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  • Col. Tartleton wrote:

    those deemed valuable socially or sexually being hoarded into harems by the male leadership and traded as a commodity in dealing
    Our VS got some definitely 'Ottoman' feel about them and harems would fit that well. If we want to follow that path plague priests might get a more fancy outfit...

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  • Ottoman? I thought we were Byzantine, from the map placement. Yes, it's the main map placement, but we were relevant to an earlier period of history than that. Or maybe Goths and Franks and Lombards.

    But yeah. My list of necessary characteristics pretty much goes:

    *Must be cowardly
    *Must be treasonous to each other
    *Must be callous and reckless
    *Must be interested in constant technological progress at all cost, see callous and reckless
    *Must be fanatically devoted to their own god, who is not one of the chaos gods or their underling
    *Must be secretive and sneaky
    *Must not value the lives of other Vermin

    There were a few more that I don't remember off the top of my head, but if we lose the technological edge and the innovation... yeah. I play Skryre exclusively. That wouldn't fly.
    Harald Vidarsonn, Herse der Hrodgarlinger
    Er plünderte die sieben Ufer,
    Er vernichtete die drei Könige
    Er verheerte Miklagard
    Harald Vidarsson, Krakenblütig,
    War wie die See,
    Stärke der Schlangen
    Wut des Wintersturms.
  • Special Rule: Bloodkin - Models with this rule may join a unit of (X) type listed in their profile, they count as having the same troop type as their host unit, and may never leave their host unit. While joined to the unit they are randomly hit by all attacks on a 5+. Attacks which roll a 1-4 when distributing hits, hit the host unit. (ie in Close Combat roll to hit against the host units WS and equipment)

    Add:
    Plague Disciples: Bloodkin (Plague Brotherhood without Plague furnace)
    Vermin Hulks: Bloodkin (Giant Rats)

    Add: (Optional)
    Special choice: Vermin Guard - Armor Piercing 1 and units over 30 models count towards core

    Reason: they both have monstrous support so this rule would work well on them as well as give reason not to take a Pendulum, creating some list variety. Moving VG to special but including this rule changes the nature of the competition between the three units as all three units are viable in different types of combat lists.
  • The Unmarked wrote:

    Special Rule: Bloodkin - Models with this rule may join a unit of (X) type listed in their profile, they count as having the same troop type as their host unit, and may never leave their host unit. While joined to the unit they are randomly hit by all attacks on a 5+. Attacks which roll a 1-4 when distributing hits, hit the host unit. (ie in Close Combat roll to hit against the host units WS and equipment)

    Add:
    Plague Disciples: Bloodkin (Plague Brotherhood without Plague furnace)
    Vermin Hulks: Bloodkin (Giant Rats)
    I like this one. However, take a look to skink cohort with caimans inside, SA book. These rules aim towards the same direction as yours, but are more elaborate. A chance to select the attacked unit in close combat is needed, otherwise these units would become very powerful.


    The Unmarked wrote:

    Add: (Optional)
    Special choice: Vermin Guard - Armor Piercing 1 and units over 30 models count towards core

    Moving VG to special but including this rule changes the nature of the competition between the three units as all three units are viable in different types of combat lists.
    I dislike this one. I don't think VG needs to go special. Furthermore, big units of VG are more useful than small ones, thus the 30 or more goes in core makes no sense. In the current state of the rules it is possible to just buy a rending banner for your verminguard and they become armour piercing (1). Also, VG are not the best core option right now, as are overshadowed by plague monks and rat at arms.


    What I would do with verminward is:


    -unequip shield and repricing them at 14 or 15 ppm

    -add shield as an option for 1 ppm


    Time ago VG included a shield in order to help them with price/balance. Now that double points happened it is possible to reprice these troops to a more fair point value.
    scissors: "OMG ROCK IS SUPER OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!!" "what about paper?" "paper is fine"

    Photos of models/armies from ETC 2017:

    Cool models seen at ETC 2017
  • @skrak I meant to write the VG as AP(+1). With the rending banner, the new special VG would have AP3. <---This is a defined role and something Plague Brotherhood and Rats at Arms can't compete with imo. Besides, this gets us a scoring unit in special and extra magic banners.

    As for your suggestion to remove shields for a price reduction, that's just fine.

    The only reason I'm recommending them moved to special is the 1.3 addition of "models above X number count towards core". That phrase changes a lot as far as Army book design imo.
  • The more I think on VS as Ottomans the more I like it. Concept of a completely new unit based on revealed fluff.

    Harem guards

    Some tyrrants of Vermin Swarm have harems of hundreds of females. To guard their possession they created a special cast of eunuchs who work as servants and guards. Ratmen are doctored early and if has strong influence on their physiology. Each grows huge and becomes bald and obese. As years pass their brains degenerate and they are affected by hunger they affected by hunger that cannot be satisfied. Outbursts of uncontrolled rage are sure to follow. At this point former harem guards are released from their duty. They are kept chained and drugged until the needs arises to unleash them on enemies of their masters.

    Infantry 25x25mm base
    Immune to Psychology

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