Forest goblins remedy.

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  • Forest goblins remedy.

    Hi.

    First of all sorry for mistakies. Typing this on my phone...

    I was thinking about forest gobbos and how they are not usable now. Frankly problem is cc only poison, which is useless and very expensive.

    So I had a thought. It would require quite a substantial redesing of them but not terrible extensive one (comments in []):

    Forest goblins 220p 0-3 per army [to limit posion usage]
    size 20 up to 10 aditional 12 ppm for extra models [why small units? to limit poison and make this unit squishy in cc and also it would be logica. If forest gobbos prefer guirella tactics they should operate in smaller units not vast hordes.]

    Stats should be as they are. As well as general upgrades.

    weapons
    poisoned throwing weapons

    Armor
    None

    Special rules
    skirmishers
    loose scoring

    Options
    only those for standard gobbo units counts towards 100 goblins with shooty weapons limit.

    What dou you think about solution like this?

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • I like the direction of this thought process. It's like comparing skinks to chameleon skinks (or whatever they're called now). Guerilla tactics of forest goblins definitely wouldn't be mass hordes of Forest Gnobs. And if given the poison shooting then they could very justifiably cost more than their common and cave counterparts (perhaps even add a point or two to thee existing cost. Maybe come standard with skirmish and the option to gain scoring is the upgrade, not the other way around. I COULD see them as a move to special with these changes, but i would prefer them to take up the core tax.... but i like the direction.
  • In this case, almost any change would be an improvement. Right now, they are just a very expensive redundancy (and might just disappear in one of the next updates). CC-poison on goblins will never be worth 3 points. Ok, maybe if a cavalry unit charges a spear-wielding horde of them in the front…

    Poisoned throwing weapons would be great, but I don’t think we should get our hopes up in this department after even poisoned short bows were deleted.

    Skirmishers is a good idea and would give them something unique. Combined with poisoned shooting or throwing stuff they would be really nice. (Though maybe not core material anymore.) I would still keep the option to play them R&F to keep forest-themed list.
    And through the storm there came a ringing:
    Thirteen tolls of that dread bell
    And all of those who dwelt in Kavzar
    Watched their city turn to hell.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    You can do this already?
    • Limit of 20 models
    • No ranged poison
    • No 0-3 limit
    I'm not sure I see the advantage of preventing players fielding hordes of forest goblins.

    This unit seems to make more sense as a separate special choice to the current core unit
    (the skirmishing forest goblins could be moved there entirely)
    Oh, I forgot about that. There is still the problem of the build in poison on CC-attacks. It's just not worth it.
    The skirmishers with poison option (maybe even on shooting) in special would be fine. I'm just not sure if we want to sacrifice one of the (for some reason) limited unit slots for our army for them.
    And through the storm there came a ringing:
    Thirteen tolls of that dread bell
    And all of those who dwelt in Kavzar
    Watched their city turn to hell.
  • Spaulding wrote:

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    You can do this already?
    • Limit of 20 models
    • No ranged poison
    • No 0-3 limit
    I'm not sure I see the advantage of preventing players fielding hordes of forest goblins.

    This unit seems to make more sense as a separate special choice to the current core unit
    (the skirmishing forest goblins could be moved there entirely)
    Oh, I forgot about that. There is still the problem of the build in poison on CC-attacks. It's just not worth it.The skirmishers with poison option (maybe even on shooting) in special would be fine. I'm just not sure if we want to sacrifice one of the (for some reason) limited unit slots for our army for them.
    well it is not like they will work under current conditions, even if cc poison would be only 1p they would still loose to common or cave dudes. Something along those lines, skirmish with short ranged poison shooting and quite expensive would make them diferent from common gobbos and useful in some manner. Besides hordes of gobbos do not seem to me like something guriella style fores fighters would do.

    Of course if they would become special they can be redesigned even further. For example lower min of 10 and max 20. And scoring as an option. But I would try to make them stay in their current place, just making them both useful and more distinctive.

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    You can do this already?
    • Limit of 20 models
    • No ranged poison
    • No 0-3 limit
    I'm not sure I see the advantage of preventing players fielding hordes of forest goblins.

    This unit seems to make more sense as a separate special choice to the current core unit
    (the skirmishing forest goblins could be moved there entirely)
    Queston .is does anybody field hordes of them? I do not think so. So what is the sense of retaining hordes of them that are useless. Not even skirmish units are worth it right now.
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Sklodo wrote:

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    I'm not sure I see the advantage of preventing players fielding hordes of forest goblins.
    Queston .is does anybody field hordes of them? I do not think so. So what is the sense of retaining hordes of them that are useless. Not even skirmish units are worth it right now.
    The sense would be that somewhere down the line somebody with the authority to change their upgrade cost would lower it to 1pt/model or allow them to have poisoned bows.
    And then they'de be worth taking as a horde as the additional cost wouldn't be too high.
  • I would say almost certainly they are people using them. The people on this forum represent just a fraction of those who play the game and generally speaking we are the ones who play in a more competitive environment.

    There will be loads of gamers out there who play for fun and have forest goblin themed armies who I am sure would hate for their list to be ruined because the tournament gamers didn't think it was powerful enough.

    I have started building a forest goblin army which I will unlikely take to a tournament but for themed games should be great fun. There are ways to improve the option without taking away the ability to take a horde of them
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Sklodo wrote:

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    I'm not sure I see the advantage of preventing players fielding hordes of forest goblins.
    Queston .is does anybody field hordes of them? I do not think so. So what is the sense of retaining hordes of them that are useless. Not even skirmish units are worth it right now.
    The sense would be that somewhere down the line somebody with the authority to change their upgrade cost would lower it to 1pt/model or allow them to have poisoned bows.And then they'de be worth taking as a horde as the additional cost wouldn't be too high.
    actually I would be4 all for poisoned bows. Even for like 5p a model. I have just heard too much about. No big poisoned units alolowed (when they took down poisoned banner).

    sgu97bjd wrote:

    I would say almost certainly they are people using them. The people on this forum represent just a fraction of those who play the game and generally speaking we are the ones who play in a more competitive environment.

    There will be loads of gamers out there who play for fun and have forest goblin themed armies who I am sure would hate for their list to be ruined because the tournament gamers didn't think it was powerful enough.

    I have started building a forest goblin army which I will unlikely take to a tournament but for themed games should be great fun. There are ways to improve the option without taking away the ability to take a horde of them
    Could you propose some improvements like that?
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • sgu97bjd wrote:

    Personally I would like to see them get an optional attached unit similar to mad gits or shady gits that had a forest goblin flavour. I am not a rules designer though and there are far better people than me to come up with something appropriate.
    but you can throw ideas around :) . What could unit like that do?
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • Sklodo wrote:

    sgu97bjd wrote:

    Personally I would like to see them get an optional attached unit similar to mad gits or shady gits that had a forest goblin flavour. I am not a rules designer though and there are far better people than me to come up with something appropriate.
    but you can throw ideas around :) . What could unit like that do?
    A unit like this should probably be backed by some existing miniature. What could that be?
    Hum... if these can be forest goblins:


    Then perhaps this could be Da Magic Potion Brewa! :D


    The fumes are so stinky that any enemy unit in base contact with this model gets -1 WS. Coughing and crying isn't helping in combat.
  • Shlagrabak wrote:

    Sklodo wrote:

    sgu97bjd wrote:

    Personally I would like to see them get an optional attached unit similar to mad gits or shady gits that had a forest goblin flavour. I am not a rules designer though and there are far better people than me to come up with something appropriate.
    but you can throw ideas around :) . What could unit like that do?
    A unit like this should probably be backed by some existing miniature. What could that be?Hum... if these can be forest goblins:


    Then perhaps this could be Da Magic Potion Brewa! :D


    The fumes are so stinky that any enemy unit in base contact with this model gets -1 WS. Coughing and crying isn't helping in combat.
    I love Titans Forge. Was 1 seem rather minor thou? Maybe distracting? Either way I still like this guirella fighting forest gobbos feel,or at least poisoned shooting of some kind.

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • I don't think RT would allow poison throwing weapons. Neither do I think they allow poison bows.

    Nevertheless, I agree that the current forest gobs are bad.

    My suggestion would be to slightly decrease the forest "upgrade" price. Furthermore I think with the new skirmish close combat rules, the skirmisher upgrade needs even more price decrease or even make it free.
    My Proposals for : O&G Religion
  • Shlagrabak wrote:

    Sklodo wrote:

    I love Titans Forge. Was 1 seem rather minor thou? Maybe distracting? Either way I still like this guirella fighting forest gobbos feel,or at least poisoned shooting of some kind.
    I thought Distracting + Parry could be a bit over the top.
    This could be remedied with proper pricing of ubpgrade I bielieve.

    arwaker wrote:

    I don't think RT would allow poison throwing weapons. Neither do I think they allow poison bows.

    Nevertheless, I agree that the current forest gobs are bad.

    My suggestion would be to slightly decrease the forest "upgrade" price. Furthermore I think with the new skirmish close combat rules, the skirmisher upgrade needs even more price decrease or even make it free.
    That is why I proposed limiting them in this fashion. Of course they can be made good some other way. But this one seemd both good rulewhise and fluffy also making them somewat distinctive like cave gobbos are. As for decrease in cost I do not bielieve it woudl work. CC poison is not very good with gobbos. Well sure if there are like 60 of them and they face exactly right oposition for exsample hingh T low AS moster then it will work nicely. But most people aside from forest gobbo themed list would actually prefer common or cave variants if just for the pricing reasons and interesting, more fluffy upgrades.

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • I build a forest goblin/spider themed army and I would like to see forest goblin be improved too.

    I see sometimes some forest goblin be played, but only in horde with spears and poisons. Sound like to be the strongest choise for the forest goblin now, but maybe i'm wrong. If you want to take bow, common goblins or night goblins are a better choise IMHO, because there is no raison to take bow to have poisonned attacks for close combat only. We pay for it so, its a worse of points. Same, if you want shield option, common goblin are more appropriate with light armor.

    Skirmish option is a really interresting and fluffy option, but the footprint is huge. With throwing weapons they are quite ok but not enought in my opinion.

    Why not giving two different options (like night goblin have) : poisonned close combat attacks, and poisonned shooting attacks ?

    Poisonned shooting attacks should be limited of course, like 20 model max per unit. And a costy option of course (more expensive than poisonned close combat attacks).

    Thanks Sklodo for you all your suggestion and your news idea comming around, I really like to read you.
  • Alexbbr wrote:

    I build a forest goblin/spider themed army and I would like to see forest goblin be improved too.

    I see sometimes some forest goblin be played, but only in horde with spears and poisons. Sound like to be the strongest choise for the forest goblin now, but maybe i'm wrong. If you want to take bow, common goblins or night goblins are a better choise IMHO, because there is no raison to take bow to have poisonned attacks for close combat only. We pay for it so, its a worse of points. Same, if you want shield option, common goblin are more appropriate with light armor.

    Skirmish option is a really interresting and fluffy option, but the footprint is huge. With throwing weapons they are quite ok but not enought in my opinion.

    Why not giving two different options (like night goblin have) : poisonned close combat attacks, and poisonned shooting attacks ?

    Poisonned shooting attacks should be limited of course, like 20 model max per unit. And a costy option of course (more expensive than poisonned close combat attacks).

    Thanks Sklodo for you all your suggestion and your news idea comming around, I really like to read you.
    Thanks :D. It is noice to be apricieated.

    I think goiving those two options would not work since cc one would almostr never be used.

    So maybe something along those lines?:

    Goblins 120 pts
    20 models, may add up to 40 models 6 pts/model
    M WS BS S T W I A Ld
    Forest Goblin 4 2 3 3 3 1 2 1 6

    Standard general goblin options

    Forest goblin (free)
    Options
    throwing weapons 1p / model
    May gain skirmish and poison attacs and loose scoring - 4 / model* **
    *Max 20 models por unit
    ** 0-3 per army.

    What do you think? This would clearly indicate which gforest goblin units have poison (those in skirmish formation) while also limiting it to 20 models and 0-3 per army.

    Best regards
    Sklodo
    Best regards
    Sklodo

    Retireing for unspecyfied period of time. Sometime I hate the world.
  • The problem with allowing poisoned shooting on one unit of Forest Gobbos is that unless it's so expensive that it's not worth taking, most competitive lists will include one maxed out unit with poison shots, like before. I would really like a Goblin sub-army (like the Terracotta Army of UD) with higher Big n' Nasty caps to allow 3 Gargantulas in a standard sized game (2+1 mounted) and some extra stuff for goblins, like access to poison shooting. That would make Forest Goblin lists viable without upsetting the balance in mixed lists. There is of course loads of other potential changes that kind of sub-army could bring to the table, but these are two important points Forest Goblins need to be viable as a stand-alone list.

    As for Forest goblins in their current state, 3 points for CC poison is too much on goblins. Try 2 and go from there.

    Theo