Bluffer's helm and its immunity to lethal strike

  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Stygian wrote:

    To elaborate hes durable and very very fast. Good for hunting war machines and other lone models, probably min sized cav too. However his damage output is very low as non-wrath, the mounts damage is non existent and so even archers will block his way for multiple rounds. Then theres the war machine thing.
    Oh yeah, 5 Ws8 St7 attacks sure is very low damage output.
    its the quantity of attacks that's mostly the problem. You hit on 3s or 4s if they have parry. Str is solid. Mount damage is mediocre. Only 5 attacks.

    Compare that to a wrath lord on crusher with 8 attacks hitting on 2s or 3s. 5 str 7. 3 str 5. 1 stomp at str 5. The damage is significantly higher.
  • Ratatoeskr wrote:

    Are we now at a point where we are not even able to post full sentences? Come on giancomo - you can do better than this.


    Ratatoeskr wrote:

    kinginyellow - but we are not discussing output - we are discussing tanks. And for a tank he has some serious hitting potential and can choose his fights as he wants..
    That's my idea; I understand it can be frustrating not being able to kill a model but you're focussing on the wrong guy. In my experience he was wounded by many things in many different ways. If you can't manage a single model who vanguards and moves 20" leaving all the army behind him there are some problems. He can choose is fight, but he does not fly. With every existing race you can manage an army that can do nothing but march to reach you as soon as possible. People are blaming blaming about S3 hits with lethal strike that don't wound the lord. You pay an entire unit 250/300 why should you be able to easily wound a model that costs 600? You need to build an army which can manage every existing situation, if you cannot there's something wrong.
    A champion with a shield just outplays him btw
  • Ratatoeskr wrote:

    Sorry guys that I bothered you with this crappy lord who surely has no purpose at all, will be shot down with the cannon everyone has and obviously would be the exact same if he would not have bluffers.

    I got it...
    No, that's not what is being said at all, but you said try and catch him with your stuff, I merely pointed out that my cannon ball can catch him, as can magic, both of which can essentially bypass the bluffer's helm.
  • I basically wanted to show an example for a model with the helmet. He is NOT the thing we need to discuss. Please keep in mind the structure thesis, arguments, examples.

    And I did not want to start a discussion about a certain model neither about some unnecessary submeta. It is quite naive to say that shooting him with the cannon makes him obsolet for multiple reasons (one of them for example as he could easily be attached to a cav unit).

    I am sorry for pointing him out - just forget him as a model and go back to the discussion about the helm itself. I for myself see it problematic because in some builds it creates tank chars which could not really be intended by 9th age. My personal view.
    "Wyvern's is good fer one thing, eatin' smashin' smellin' and flyin.' They're also good fer lettin' the other boyz know who's boss!"—Azhag the Slaughterer
  • Wow - this deep... So apparently the answer to nearly everything in the game would be to shoot it with a cannon.

    'go catch him' was nothing but a catchy phrase to underline how fast he is. Didn't think somebody could get that wrong...
    "Wyvern's is good fer one thing, eatin' smashin' smellin' and flyin.' They're also good fer lettin' the other boyz know who's boss!"—Azhag the Slaughterer
  • Ratatoeskr wrote:

    Wow - this deep... So apparently the answer to nearly everything in the game would be to shoot it with a cannon.

    'go catch him' was nothing but a catchy phrase to underline how fast he is. Didn't think somebody could get that wrong...
    C'mon guys, nothing happened. Btw Yes it can create serious tanky build but I don't find really over powered. The nerfhammer maybe should it something different
  • If nothing else its a cool unique build that someone can have fun with and go around wrecking chaff or maybe catch the right monster with its pants (fur?) down. Probably shouldn't tangle with anything like a treefather or even a great green idol though.

    The main point is the opportunity cost of the helm does exist. If the lord wanted to be stronger he could take something scary like the burning blade of chaos and lay down some whoopass. Only then he couldn't take the helm. Anyway thats my anecdote folks. L8r
    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE
    Undying Deathstar Construction Inc.
  • Adam wrote:

    Kratos wrote:

    The helm is better than duskstone because it also gives +1 to armor.

    With duskstone you could not have a 1+as reroll and 4++. And they even restricted 2+as reroll 4++.

    With bluffers you can have 1+as reroll Toughness and 4++.

    Not every army have poison, or s4+ lethals to kill those beasts.
    But every army has at least one (i guess even 2) of:S6+ attacks --> I'd say S7+ attacks, which are not that common. You need 18 S6 Attacks to cause a single wound.
    Assuming you are hit on 4+, 9 S7 attacks are required to cause him a single wound or 4.3 S7 divine attacks. So, realistically, you need S7 attacks



    War machines --> Canons yes, but still re-rolling to wound (1s happen) and a 4+ ward is way better that some other more expensive characters. Catapults need to direct hit, re-roll to wound on 2s (1s happen) and still allow 5+AS and 4++. S6 Bolt throwers have a hard time. So yes, it's feasible, but only quite reliable for canons with good BS


    S4+ lethal strikes --> To cause 1W due to Lethal strike you need 144 S3 attacks, or 74 S4 attacks or 48 S5 attacks or 36 S6. Without the Helm you'd need 24 attacks to cause 1W due to Lethal strike (regardless of Strength). Big big difference for lower strength


    Poison --> Poison by-passes the helm, but not the 1+AS and 4+ward. Assuming S4 poison attacks, it requires 72 attacks to cause 1W due to poison. Not really a counter. Is only High-strength poison attacks (which are VERY rare) which would be an issue


    Metal shifting --> That is a true counter. Unfortunately you need an Alchemy mage for that, which is not a guarantee
    Based on my above explanations, the list of effective counters vs the T5 bluffers helm is reduced to:
    • High number and quality S7 attacks
    • Canons and, more limited, also catapults
    • Metal Shifting
    • Winning combat significantly by static combat res from tarpit unit (often requiring flank/rear charge bonus and ranks, not easy to pull against a more mobile character)
    It is not that there are no counters, it is the fact that those are very limited or may be very difficult to pull on a game (massively outplay your opponent and get a R&F unit charge on the flank out of his BSB bubble)


    @Adam I believe you are answering from a HbE perspective, where the character is T4 instead of T5, and that makes a relevant difference as S6 attacks start to be an effective counter (which is more common, rather than S7) and also bolt throwers wound him on 2s re-rollable instead of 3s re-rollable (nearly doubling wounds). On the other hand, the Lion Chariot character has very good output damage, thus making it more unlikely to lose by combat res. So he takes wounds "easier" (so he may eventually die) but is more difficult to shift by combat resolution checks
  • New

    @Krokz would you mind please sharing your experiences with:

    750 - Lord of Chaos - Characters - Empowered - General, Disc of Change, Mark of Change, Third Eye of Change, Bluffer's Helm, Jack's Pickaxe, Talisman of Greater Shielding, Shield

    I have seen in a battle report in SE thread that you went to a tourney with it (SE player commenting his army couldn't counter him in any possible way).

    Do you feel this character is balanced? do you feel Bluffer's Helm is too good?

    Maybe hands on experience from a trusted experienced player may help bring clarity

    Thanks in advance
  • New

    Calcathin wrote:

    @Krokz would you mind please sharing your experiences with:

    750 - Lord of Chaos - Characters - Empowered - General, Disc of Change, Mark of Change, Third Eye of Change, Bluffer's Helm, Jack's Pickaxe, Talisman of Greater Shielding, Shield

    I have seen in a battle report in SE thread that you went to a tourney with it (SE player commenting his army couldn't counter him in any possible way).

    Do you feel this character is balanced? do you feel Bluffer's Helm is too good?

    Maybe hands on experience from a trusted experienced player may help bring clarity

    Thanks in advance
    Well you do not always have to counter what enemy puts on the table. I often play against koe list with 55 pesants reliquary and duke unit with which I cannot do anything untill I kill the rest of his army, and even then it is a tough nut to crack. Still I win all games against this list by avoiding the unit and killing the rest. Also SE can have characters with S7 I9 divine attacks if I recall correctly who would run over such lord with ease, so I would say that it is SE player fault more than the imbalance of any item.
  • New

    Calcathin wrote:

    @Krokz would you mind please sharing your experiences with:

    750 - Lord of Chaos - Characters - Empowered - General, Disc of Change, Mark of Change, Third Eye of Change, Bluffer's Helm, Jack's Pickaxe, Talisman of Greater Shielding, Shield
    He can pick fights, usually goes into one important combat, hardly survives and starts hiding. Friend also fields it and he hates how quickly this guy looses Combat Score, I try not to go into fights where there is even a remote chance of loosing CS.

    Most of armies I went against have at least 1/3 of units capable of taking him down, mostly with CS. But as always, SE have problems with high Armor, high Toughness enemies. That was always their weakness.


    Calcathin wrote:

    Do you feel this character is balanced? do you feel Bluffer's Helm is too good?
    Can't say. I only had those 5 games and one test before with it.
    If he is broken it is not because of Bluffers, but because of combination with Jack's. Both this items give my list exactly what it needs: answer against high profile Monsters and Spear/KB blocks.

    Adam wrote:

    Well you do not always have to counter what enemy puts on the table. I often play against koe list with 55 pesants reliquary and duke unit with which I cannot do anything untill I kill the rest of his army, and even then it is a tough nut to crack. Still I win all games against this list by avoiding the unit and killing the rest.
    What he said.
    Army Design Team. Making Warriors great again.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Krokz ().