The all powerful Initiative

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  • No one plays 50 wild hornes in horde, you will get multicharged and killed or someone will catapult and shoot you down to 35 and then charge and wipe you.. You picked just enough that 20 wounds don't reduce attacks but in all real case 20 wounds do reduce attacks substantially. You can pick large units in core but elites are capped at 30 wounds or so a lot of the time so if you do 20 it's over.

    Plus, minotaurs win combat and force Ld test so wildhorn's still lose on average.

    You can allows find one outlier but if no one plays that then it doesn't really count.

  • Just done some maths for the two armies I play using the Minotaurs above. The 50 Wildhorns example is clear so I looked at a couple of other ones.

    Vs 50 Dwarf Warriors with GW, similar result as above. Dwarfs grind Minotaurs down with a handful remaining.

    Vs 50 Forest Guard with Spears, however, Minotaurs are going to have a very bad day.

    Given that the two units above are similar in price, core infantry of fairly elite armies they are comparable. This does suggest that initiative is a pretty big deal in this instance.

  • skrak wrote:

    Mattall wrote:

    There are many possible solutions, here are a few examples:

    2. For example, some troops are initiative 2 for no real reason (GW said so back in the day). Change them to initiative 3 or 4.

    What troops are you talking about? The Initiative 2 troops I know have I 2 for a reason: T4, good save, better strenght being the most common.


    3. Charging could grant troops +1 initiative

    Ok, I think it would be a good change.


    4. Calvary charging could grant troops +2 initiative.

    Totally agree, cavalry need some buff in the charge. It doesn't make sense to me that orc boar riders or equitanian horsemen strike after most infantry.


    Lizards and raptors are incredibly fast in nature.

    No, they aren't. Lizards are slower than warm blooded relatives, rats, cats, etc. We don't know much about raptors in nature. By the way, real velociraptors are 1-2 feet tall (45 cms), they are cute, not scary.

    However, wouldn't lizards and raptors be incredibly faster than humans.

    • Lizards wouldn't be faster than human. They are coldblooded, which means they have to warm up with sunlight before moving eficiently. Their reflexes depend highly in the atmosphere temperature. If the air temperature is about 20º they would move almost as fast as a human (never equal or faster). If the air temperature is 0º even a little girl with a knife could defeat a big lizard. Their methabolism is slow compared to human's. A lizard consumes less calories than a human but has slower movement/reflexes. Comparing a lizard to a human would be like comparing a ferrari to a solar car, the ferrari would win the race and consum much more fuel.


    • About raptors, it depends if you are taking fiction jurassic park, or real dinosaur ones. The jurassic park ones are really fast, no doubt about it. For the real ones, (I would better take a deinonichus [6 feet tall 2 meters tall] than a velociraptor [1-2 feet tall, 45 cms tall] as a reference) there is a bit of controversy about them beign cold or warm blooded. The race adaptation and height they have fits more with warm blooded living things. Furthermore there are no livin thing that is as big, fast and coldbloded like jurassic park raptors. In conclusion if they are big and fast they are warm blooded and should enhance their initiative, but lose the coldbloded rule.

    I don't care if the game is realistic at all.

    OK, forgot about the 3 last pharagraphs I have written :D

    Lizards are slow? Let me acquaint you with good ol' iguana my friend i.imgur.com/arVszsi.gifv
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  • Vitnar wrote:

    skrak wrote:

    Mattall wrote:

    There are many possible solutions, here are a few examples:

    2. For example, some troops are initiative 2 for no real reason (GW said so back in the day). Change them to initiative 3 or 4.

    What troops are you talking about? The Initiative 2 troops I know have I 2 for a reason: T4, good save, better strenght being the most common.


    3. Charging could grant troops +1 initiative

    Ok, I think it would be a good change.


    4. Calvary charging could grant troops +2 initiative.

    Totally agree, cavalry need some buff in the charge. It doesn't make sense to me that orc boar riders or equitanian horsemen strike after most infantry.


    Lizards and raptors are incredibly fast in nature.

    No, they aren't. Lizards are slower than warm blooded relatives, rats, cats, etc. We don't know much about raptors in nature. By the way, real velociraptors are 1-2 feet tall (45 cms), they are cute, not scary.

    However, wouldn't lizards and raptors be incredibly faster than humans.

    • Lizards wouldn't be faster than human. They are coldblooded, which means they have to warm up with sunlight before moving eficiently. Their reflexes depend highly in the atmosphere temperature. If the air temperature is about 20º they would move almost as fast as a human (never equal or faster). If the air temperature is 0º even a little girl with a knife could defeat a big lizard. Their methabolism is slow compared to human's. A lizard consumes less calories than a human but has slower movement/reflexes. Comparing a lizard to a human would be like comparing a ferrari to a solar car, the ferrari would win the race and consum much more fuel.


    • About raptors, it depends if you are taking fiction jurassic park, or real dinosaur ones. The jurassic park ones are really fast, no doubt about it. For the real ones, (I would better take a deinonichus [6 feet tall 2 meters tall] than a velociraptor [1-2 feet tall, 45 cms tall] as a reference) there is a bit of controversy about them beign cold or warm blooded. The race adaptation and height they have fits more with warm blooded living things. Furthermore there are no livin thing that is as big, fast and coldbloded like jurassic park raptors. In conclusion if they are big and fast they are warm blooded and should enhance their initiative, but lose the coldbloded rule.

    I don't care if the game is realistic at all.

    OK, forgot about the 3 last pharagraphs I have written :D

    Lizards are slow? Let my acquaint you with good ol' iguana my friend i.imgur.com/arVszsi.gifv

    Vitnar wrote:

    skrak wrote:

    Mattall wrote:

    There are many possible solutions, here are a few examples:

    2. For example, some troops are initiative 2 for no real reason (GW said so back in the day). Change them to initiative 3 or 4.

    What troops are you talking about? The Initiative 2 troops I know have I 2 for a reason: T4, good save, better strenght being the most common.


    3. Charging could grant troops +1 initiative

    Ok, I think it would be a good change.


    4. Calvary charging could grant troops +2 initiative.

    Totally agree, cavalry need some buff in the charge. It doesn't make sense to me that orc boar riders or equitanian horsemen strike after most infantry.


    Lizards and raptors are incredibly fast in nature.

    No, they aren't. Lizards are slower than warm blooded relatives, rats, cats, etc. We don't know much about raptors in nature. By the way, real velociraptors are 1-2 feet tall (45 cms), they are cute, not scary.

    However, wouldn't lizards and raptors be incredibly faster than humans.

    • Lizards wouldn't be faster than human. They are coldblooded, which means they have to warm up with sunlight before moving eficiently. Their reflexes depend highly in the atmosphere temperature. If the air temperature is about 20º they would move almost as fast as a human (never equal or faster). If the air temperature is 0º even a little girl with a knife could defeat a big lizard. Their methabolism is slow compared to human's. A lizard consumes less calories than a human but has slower movement/reflexes. Comparing a lizard to a human would be like comparing a ferrari to a solar car, the ferrari would win the race and consum much more fuel.


    • About raptors, it depends if you are taking fiction jurassic park, or real dinosaur ones. The jurassic park ones are really fast, no doubt about it. For the real ones, (I would better take a deinonichus [6 feet tall 2 meters tall] than a velociraptor [1-2 feet tall, 45 cms tall] as a reference) there is a bit of controversy about them beign cold or warm blooded. The race adaptation and height they have fits more with warm blooded living things. Furthermore there are no livin thing that is as big, fast and coldbloded like jurassic park raptors. In conclusion if they are big and fast they are warm blooded and should enhance their initiative, but lose the coldbloded rule.

    I don't care if the game is realistic at all.

    OK, forgot about the 3 last pharagraphs I have written :D

    Lizards are slow? Let my acquaint you with good ol' iguana my friend i.imgur.com/arVszsi.gifv
    That has to be the Usain Bolt of Iguanas :)

  • 9thageAwesome wrote:

    No one plays 50 wild hornes in horde, you will get multicharged and killed or someone will catapult and shoot you down to 35 and then charge and wipe you.. You picked just enough that 20 wounds don't reduce attacks but in all real case 20 wounds do reduce attacks substantially. You can pick large units in core but elites are capped at 30 wounds or so a lot of the time so if you do 20 it's over.

    Plus, minotaurs win combat and force Ld test so wildhorn's still lose on average.

    You can allows find one outlier but if no one plays that then it doesn't really count.
    The 50 Wildhorns was to get them even close to the price of the Minotaurs. If you take only 30 at half the price of the minotaurs of course the minos will win big. That should be no more surprising than the fact that 8 minotaurs will win over 4... The point is that glasshammer elite units may be able to delete each other - and therefor the one with highest initiativ wins - but there are other units in the game!

    As for the multicharging and shooting them down - the exact same is true for minotaurs. No one will allow 8 minotaurs to charge one of his eliteunits without shooting them down to a manageable size first.

    Kreon

  • Hahaha, sure go charge your elite super high I elf cav into lets say 30 barrow guard (similarily priced) and look how elves evaporate in first round of combat. I play both HBE and VC and certainly I matters but only in fights in which you bring supreme force that is enough to evaporate enemy in the first round. When fighting big units I doesn't matter at all.
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  • When it comes to the clash of elite units:

    - Strength only matters a little because Flails, Great Weapons+Lightning Reflexes and Halberds (+AP) make it basically easy to get enough Strength as long as you're an elite unit. It doesn't really matter if your race has S4 base because elves and humans easily hit S5/S6 with weapons. (So it matters, but it doesn't matter what ARMY BOOK you have)

    - Weaponskill doesn't matter that much because W3-5 is still hitting on a 4+ vs. WS5 enemies and vs. Shield-using enemies. (So it sometimes matters, but not very much)

    - Attacks do something, but you can get three ranks attacking no matter what AB you're using, and that's at least 21 attacks vs. a 5 wide unit, and 30 vs. an enemy horde.

    So even a unit that's barely elite puts a decent dent into the enemy if it swings first, while a unit that's super-elite that swings second is going to lose the grind.

    It doesn't really matter if you're S5 or S6, it doesn't really matter if you're A1 or A2 - what matters is "are you armed with a decently hitty weapon?" and "are you swinging first?".


    I mean, against Lion Guard or Executioners? T4 and 4+ save is literally useless. And there simply aren't any infantry units that get better than that, so defense doesn't matter. WS doesn't matter much against them either (W1-4 is really bad, WS6 doesn't really matter because you're still taking a mauling before your swing), and your own S and A values only matter if you have enough bodies to actually get some attacks.

    Yes, their other stats matter, but yours don't.


    Sure. Other stats matter to the package - but once Sufficiently Killy units *exist*, the only stat *that helps you beat them* is having equal or higher initiative so that you can kill them before dying.

  • Kreon wrote:

    Just doing the math for beastherds:
    8 Minotaurs with paired weapons against 50 Wildhorns with paired weapons (but -1 Initiativ so they strike last). Both units gets primal fury:

    Round 1: Minos makes 20 wounds including impact hits and stomp. Wildhorns makes 10 wounds. So 5 Minos vs 30 Wildhorns.
    Round 2: Minos makes 13 wounds including stomp. Wildhorns makes 7,25. So 3 Minos vs 17 Wildhorns.
    Round 3: Minos makes 7,5 wounds including stomp. Wildhorns makes 5. So 1 Mino vs 10 Wildhorns
    Round 4: Mino makes 2,5 wounds (no stomp). Wildhorns makes 3,5. So 7 surviving Wildhorns.

    So 680 points of Minotaurs is ground down by 600 points of Wildhorns. This assumes of course that the wildhorns doesn't break, but as they are stubborn and will usually have a BSB nearby this isn't unlikely.

    Against a similar amount of Longhorns the Minos win easily when going first and the longhorns win if they go first - so I guess the lesson is that when two units, that can effectively delete each other in one round of combat fights against each other, the one that hits first wins (rather obvious). But if you hit a unit you cannot delete with one of these glasshammers you are in trouble.

    To me that is however a rather trivial point - and a far cry from Initiativ being "all powerfull".
    I am sorry to tell, but I think your maths are wrong.

    I think minotaurs are 4 x 2 formation and wildhorns are 10 x 5, am I right? In this situation, only 8 front wildhorn should be able to attack, thus dealing up to 32 attacks total, not 40. I ilustrate what should happen on average dice, calculated with simple combat calculator and represented thanks to universalbattle.com

    The result of this combat is really close, so either of them could win/decimate each other. Don't expect many survivors for any part.


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  • skrak wrote:

    Kreon wrote:


    I am sorry to tell, but I think your maths are wrong.
    I think minotaurs are 4 x 2 formation and wildhorns are 10 x 5, am I right? In this situation, only 8 front wildhorn should be able to attack, thus dealing up to 32 attacks total, not 40. I ilustrate what should happen on average dice, calculated with simple combat calculator and represented thanks to universalbattle.com

    The result of this combat is really close, so either of them could win/decimate each other. Don't expect many survivors for any part.



    You are right of course - the point still stands though. A more expensive glasshammerunit doesn't delete the cheaper blockunit.

    Kreon

  • Beardling wrote:

    sorry but in which rulebook is such a charge on open field legal? You have to maximize, you cannot simply put ur minotaurs on the edge of the fight to avoid more attack from the wildhorns. ^^
    It isn't. But that image appears to be representing Wildhorns as 20mm wide when infact they are 25mm wide. So I think to compensate for this, he put the Minotaur unit to the side to simulate the combat with 8 fighting infantry models instead of 10.

    The Minotaurs could actually contact with all 8 fighting in base to base contact, giving them an additional 8 attacks, 2 impacts and 2 stomps on the first round, and a few additional attacks & stomps on subsequent rounds.

  • Paperplane wrote:


    Maybe I did miss the point but arguing that initiative is too strong and is the only factor that decides combat seems to be backwards if the problem is units wiping other units before they can strike. Someone has to hit first, but maybe it shouldn't be alive to do an average of 20+ wounds in one round of combat.
    Do they? Why can't we all hit at the same time?

    I don't like initiative much and think we should remove it in place of more interesting stats or a simpler game.
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  • Vulcan wrote:

    What always bugged me about Initiative in 8E (and now T9A) is how an elf with a short sword gets to hit a charging knight with a twelve-foot lance first...and if the knight survives the elf then runs back in front of the lance so the charging knight so the knight can get his charge bonus.

    What the... heck? ?(

    Unless all elves have reflexes like the Flash, that should be outright impossible. And even if they do, they shouldn't be suicidal enough to go back to be hit by the lance.

    IT MAKES NO SENSE.
    You do know that this is a representation of combat and not actual combat simulation, right?

  • We can all come up with reasons why lizards may be fast or slow dependent on temperature or distance travelled, environment etc, but T9A is still just a tabletop war game. If you want faster saurians you are going to have to pay more points for it. Raptor riders need a boost in the rules from my point of view, but so do some other cavalry units.

    As for Initiative being the be all and end all, it's not. It's the combination with strength that matters. Sirens are fast, Clawed Fiends are fast, Chosen are fast, etc etc but only some of those units have the all important strength and attacks to go with it. If you get hit by a bunch of Sirens first who cares? They hit like a wet paper bag. Get hit by Wrath Chosen with paired weapons or halberds however, and watch many units get vaporised into dust.

    No one stat rules the game when models are costed well for the stats they bring to the table. After all if Initiative meant Elves always won combat no one would win against them. Instead toughness 3 means they die in droves to shooting or magic where Initiative means stuff all.

  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    When it comes to the clash of elite units:

    - Strength only matters a little because Flails, Great Weapons+Lightning Reflexes and Halberds (+AP) make it basically easy to get enough Strength as long as you're an elite unit. It doesn't really matter if your race has S4 base because elves and humans easily hit S5/S6 with weapons. (So it matters, but it doesn't matter what ARMY BOOK you have)

    Sure you can Strength quite easily, but if you are not an Elf (and those are these dudes you pay a buckload of points for just so they can fall over when beeing hit by a stiff breeze?) you can't use those Great Weapons without sacrificing the "all powerfull initative". Flails are of course the prime example of a Weapon that wants to strike first, but which Elite Infantry Unit got those? Using Halberds you are mostly at a point where Toughness means a lot and you can't wipe out units in one Round.


    - Weaponskill doesn't matter that much because W3-5 is still hitting on a 4+ vs. WS5 enemies and vs. Shield-using enemies. (So it sometimes matters, but not very much)

    Hitting on 3's instead of 4's means 5 more Hits if you are in Horde Formation... Wouldn't consider that useless. Against Parry it is indeed.


    - Attacks do something, but you can get three ranks attacking no matter what AB you're using, and that's at least 21 attacks vs. a 5 wide unit, and 30 vs. an enemy horde.

    Tell me how Ogres can get three full ranks. And your equation doesnt work out as soon as you are on 25mm bases. Like Iron Orks, they get only full attacks if the enemy is in Horde Formation as well and they lose almost halve their attacks against 5 Wide 20mm Units.


    So even a unit that's barely elite puts a decent dent into the enemy if it swings first, while a unit that's super-elite that swings second is going to lose the grind.


    So 34 Longhorn with Halberds against 30 Deep Watch (Same Price) Both in Horde Formation. Long Horns do 6,5 Wounds, Deep Watch does 9 Wounds back (with Grudges and Primal considered). Next round Longhorn do 3,6 Wounds and Deep Watch 5,4 Wounds. Deep Watch win the Grind even though they attack after the Long Horns and they pass their Primal every round.
    And one should consider that the Deep Watch is quite harder to kill by shooting.


    It doesn't really matter if you're S5 or S6, it doesn't really matter if you're A1 or A2 - what matters is "are you armed with a decently hitty weapon?" and "are you swinging first?".

    But that, again, means that Strength is more important. Would you be rather I3 with S10 or S3 with I10? I think that is clear.
    And everyone except Elves have a hard time getting any Strength without beeing I0.


    I mean, against Lion Guard or Executioners? T4 and 4+ save is literally useless. And there simply aren't any infantry units that get better than that, so defense doesn't matter. WS doesn't matter much against them either (W1-4 is really bad, WS6 doesn't really matter because you're still taking a mauling before your swing), and your own S and A values only matter if you have enough bodies to actually get some attacks.

    Sure they hit like a Truck, but if they didnt, they would die like flies. If you are Strength 6 and hit with good initiative, you are very likely super squishy. Executioners, White Lions they all die to S4AP1 Shooting like flies.


    And having allready fought a 28 White Lion Unit in 7 wide Formation with a 12 Man Tribesmen Unit, I can tell you, I don't care who strikes first. Noone will reduce the other unit of attacks in the first two rounds of combat, and by then support should arrive.


    Yes, their other stats matter, but yours don't.


    Parry does, Ward Saves do, Regeneration does....


    Sure. Other stats matter to the package - but once Sufficiently Killy units *exist*, the only stat *that helps you beat them* is having equal or higher initiative so that you can kill them before dying.

    Or be super tanky or super cheap.
    Initiative does a lot for you if you are a small unit that gets killed after striking, like 5 Man Sword Master Units, but as soon as you are a large Unit, Toughness and Strength are the god stats.

  • having played elves, I can tell you the following:

    INITIATIVE IS NOT THE END ALL BE ALL OF COMBAT!

    Now, all together:

    "Initiative is not the End All Be All of Combat"!

    NOW,
    This is NOT TO SAY that Initiative is unimportant. It is VERY important WHEN COMBINED WITH HIGH STRENGTH!

    That's why my Highborn Elf spears are garbage against anything that lacks "Cavalry" in the game (last time I ran the math they lost by 7 to 10 wounds against other elite armies at same points values, and by 3 to 8 wounds against horde armies). Their problem is that against anything that isn't cavalry, they are just S3 AP1. Not Good Enough until you start fighting Cavalry, and my huge volume of attacks that hit very well is combined with Lethal Strike.

    NOW, compare to Lion Guard:
    WS5, S6, I5. That means that not only do they get to strike first, they chew through your units. Badly. Same with Sword Masters. WS6, S5, I6. They will DESTROY a unit badly. BUT THE REASON THEY DO THIS IS NOT THAT THEY HAVE HIGH INITIATIVE. It's that they combine high Initiative with high Strength.

    Think of it this way:
    Initiative Determines who hits first.
    Strength determines your to wound score and the opponent's armor save.

    So initiative matters at one step and doesn't affect combat directly. Strength affects combat at TWO steps DIRECTLY.


    The problem ain't "Initiative". It's "Initiative with obscene strength". That having been said, if you buff everyone else's initiative or nerf elven initiative,
    What are you doing to avoid making Literally 3 books garbage (Highborn Elves, Dread Elves, Elf portion of Sylvan Elves)? Because at this point our only REAL advantage in combat, High Strength with High Initiative and the ability to use movement to get favorable combats and have a chance of winning, is gone.

    So if, as many people including the OP have stated, you are nerfing elven initiative or buffing everyone else's initiative then how are you making elves viable while keeping their feel that people want (hard to hit, hit hard, can't take a hit)? Or are we just making Elves into Warriors of Dark Gods or Saurian Ancients or a Horde army and removing their "elite" status?
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