The all powerful Initiative

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  • Never said anything against that. Just that if all of a sudden elves are I3 or everyone else is I4 + bonuses or I5, what are we doing for elves? Cause the whole point of us is that we hit real hard, but if we take a hit in return we are done for. So if we remove the "hit first" part of "hit first and hit hard", then how are we compensating elves so that they don't stink?

    Like I said,
    the issue ain't "high initiative". It's "high strength plus high initiative" (the strength part being a FAR more important part of the equation in my opinion).

    Personally, I think strength is a far more important factor. Improvements to other stats just make high strength godly.
  • TheSpid wrote:

    Paperplane wrote:

    Maybe I did miss the point but arguing that initiative is too strong and is the only factor that decides combat seems to be backwards if the problem is units wiping other units before they can strike. Someone has to hit first, but maybe it shouldn't be alive to do an average of 20+ wounds in one round of combat.
    Do they? Why can't we all hit at the same time?
    I don't like initiative much and think we should remove it in place of more interesting stats or a simpler game.
    Then elves disappear from the game in favor of armies that either a) have models durable enough to take hits, or b) can buy tons of cheap models so losing lots of them isn't instant defeat.

    alltaken wrote:

    Vulcan wrote:

    What always bugged me about Initiative in 8E (and now T9A) is how an elf with a short sword gets to hit a charging knight with a twelve-foot lance first...and if the knight survives the elf then runs back in front of the lance so the charging knight so the knight can get his charge bonus.

    What the... heck? ?(

    Unless all elves have reflexes like the Flash, that should be outright impossible. And even if they do, they shouldn't be suicidal enough to go back to be hit by the lance.

    IT MAKES NO SENSE.
    You do know that this is a representation of combat and not actual combat simulation, right?
    And? If it feels wrong, it feels wrong.

    Now if the knights lost their charge bonus because the elves could infallibly duck under the lances to attack, that would be as unbalanced as all get-out but at least it would have verisimilitude.
  • And you would have to design a new full rull set and re balance it. I would like to remind you minis are an abstraction, first pages of BRB state the intended relation of time and size. So it's not that 1 elf evaded you and therefore he specifically needs to jump again in your Lance's way. It's just your issue with your ability to abstract the combat
  • Think of it this way:

    The first couple of ranks can duck the lances and go after the knights. The third rank onwards are pressed in by the models behind them and can't avoid the lances. Alternately, the knights "strike" when the horses hit the infantry because the elves in the first few ranks can dodge the lances.


    It's not like there's a thin line of elves and a thin line of knights and someone has to run like The Flash. On that note, however, I've always pictured elves appearing to move DBZ style (barely visible blur) when fighting. If you've ever seen a martial arts master fight up close, it almost looks like that. And those are just fast/well trained humans. Imagine a SUPER FAST and TRAINED FOR CENTURIES elf!
  • Initiative is neither the best nor the worst stat.
    It's just the most situational one.

    Two hordes fight each other? Initiative is meaningless.
    At least one small unit fights? Initiative can decide everything = using full damage potential before getting hit


    That's IMO just an interesting strategical part of the game that as soon as a unit is below a critical number of models you need to take initiative into consideration when thinking about whom to fight in combat.


    IMO, the best improvement to the game would be to give pole weapons an initiative bonus
    a) mounted units in the turn they charge
    b) unmounted units in the turn they are charged

    It's the worst part of initiative that low initiative heavy cavalry is slaughtered by some kind of units with short weapons before even being able to attack.

    Unlogical thing:
    Impact hits by ogre charge delete halve an elven unit before even being able to strike while at the same time this elven unit can kill halve a charging low in knight unit before being able to strike.

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  • DJWoodelf wrote:

    Unlogical thing:
    Impact hits by ogre charge delete halve an elven unit before even being able to strike while at the same time this elven unit can kill halve a charging low in knight unit before being able to strike.
    Wouldn't the logical solution be to give all (Monstrous)Cavalry 1 impact hit at the mount's strength?

    This also might give cavalry the bump they need to be playable?
  • IHDarklord wrote:

    DJWoodelf wrote:

    Unlogical thing:
    Impact hits by ogre charge delete halve an elven unit before even being able to strike while at the same time this elven unit can kill halve a charging low in knight unit before being able to strike.
    Wouldn't the logical solution be to give all (Monstrous)Cavalry 1 impact hit at the mount's strength?
    This also might give cavalry the bump they need to be playable?
    strangely, that's exactly what I would favor as little bump #1 ;) ... incl barding = +1S for impact.
    BUT cav impact only against normal height units.

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  • NinzieQT wrote:

    And that might increase the price of the cav units. I would like to see a solution, which doesn't require a charge for the cavalry.
    every buff increases the price but there are balancing ideas.
    Mount's protection is unrealistic as h.
    Why should a mount increase the AS?
    Remove mount's protection and leave barding at +1AS.
    Would make normal cavarly max 2+ AS.

    More charge punch, less protection.
    Of course the general mass of existent Armour piercing needs to be reduced at the same time.

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  • DJWoodelf wrote:

    IHDarklord wrote:

    DJWoodelf wrote:

    Unlogical thing:
    Impact hits by ogre charge delete halve an elven unit before even being able to strike while at the same time this elven unit can kill halve a charging low in knight unit before being able to strike.
    Wouldn't the logical solution be to give all (Monstrous)Cavalry 1 impact hit at the mount's strength?This also might give cavalry the bump they need to be playable?
    strangely, that's exactly what I would favor as little bump #1 ;) ... incl barding = +1S for impact.BUT cav impact only against normal height units.

    DJWoodelf wrote:

    NinzieQT wrote:

    And that might increase the price of the cav units. I would like to see a solution, which doesn't require a charge for the cavalry.
    every buff increases the price but there are balancing ideas.Mount's protection is unrealistic as h.
    Why should a mount increase the AS?
    Remove mount's protection and leave barding at +1AS.
    Would make normal cavarly max 2+ AS.

    More charge punch, less protection.
    Of course the general mass of existent Armour piercing needs to be reduced at the same time.
    All these are of course hitting elves the most, as the army with most expensive models with least T. It seems that most proposals are tailored to make elves even more boring and one dimensional than what RT already managed to do from 1.1 to 1.3.
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  • Vulcan wrote:

    Then elves disappear from the game in favor of armies that either a) have models durable enough to take hits, or b) can buy tons of cheap models so losing lots of them isn't instant defeat.
    That certainly depends on HOW you do it. If you change combat to be you roll to hit as WS vs I, and everybody hit at the same time, elves becomes a lot more durable while at the same time becoming more killy ws low I armies. Sure if you just delete the Initiative stat and the rules revovling around it, some armies like elves will suffer a lot.
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  • IHDarklord wrote:

    I don't mind hitting elves ;).

    In all seriousness,
    I think elves have the easiest charge with horses (most charge-range), so this could count as a buff for them :).

    I'm very happy as a UD player to have chariots to charge Executioners before going in with any other unit :).
    Well KoE (aspirants and +d3 charge range) and Lust demons are better
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  • Adam wrote:

    IHDarklord wrote:

    I don't mind hitting elves ;).

    In all seriousness,
    I think elves have the easiest charge with horses (most charge-range), so this could count as a buff for them :).

    I'm very happy as a UD player to have chariots to charge Executioners before going in with any other unit :).
    Well KoE (aspirants and +d3 charge range) and Lust demons are better
    the +D3 charge range is actually really good (even though you need a character and need to buy the virtue) but I still prefer to reroll the charge roll if no characters are present in the unit :)
  • 9thageAwesome wrote:

    Are you kidding. At S5 and S6 dwarves and warriors get crushed if they go second. Wounding on 2+ or 3+ and getting no save or 6+ and parry save if they have it.

    If we are talking about hordes of S5 or S6 infantry and MI that are S5 or S6 with 8-10 models. Initiative is everything. Even S4 Ap1 qualifies if there are enough attacks.

    Do the math on 30 executioners or 8 minotaurs with AHW or 30 swordmasters or 8 once-chosen wrath halberds. I3 units or lower units just get crushed. No way you can fight that when you take 20+ wounds first.

    Initiative is the most important stat as long as the unit can do basically 20+ wounds to anything. Most armies have these hitty units and they aren't deathstars, 8 minos is only 700 points.

    Top level players will tell you initiative is the most important factor on elite units because they all can dish out damage because they are elite for the most part.
    This guy plays in GTs.

    I can't figure out what's more depressing, (1) that he's right and the solutions to fix it are really difficult to figure out; or (2) the number of other people in this thread that are incapable of understanding fundamentals of wargaming.
  • Knight wrote:

    9thageAwesome wrote:

    Are you kidding. At S5 and S6 dwarves and warriors get crushed if they go second. Wounding on 2+ or 3+ and getting no save or 6+ and parry save if they have it.

    If we are talking about hordes of S5 or S6 infantry and MI that are S5 or S6 with 8-10 models. Initiative is everything. Even S4 Ap1 qualifies if there are enough attacks.

    Do the math on 30 executioners or 8 minotaurs with AHW or 30 swordmasters or 8 once-chosen wrath halberds. I3 units or lower units just get crushed. No way you can fight that when you take 20+ wounds first.

    Initiative is the most important stat as long as the unit can do basically 20+ wounds to anything. Most armies have these hitty units and they aren't deathstars, 8 minos is only 700 points.

    Top level players will tell you initiative is the most important factor on elite units because they all can dish out damage because they are elite for the most part.
    This guy plays in GTs.
    I can't figure out what's more depressing, (1) that he's right and the solutions to fix it are really difficult to figure out; or (2) the number of other people in this thread that are incapable of understanding fundamentals of wargaming.
    So do I? And no you simply do not have a horde of executioners or sword masters because:
    1) any half competent player will chaff infantry horde (especially costing 700-800 pts)
    2) t3 5+save you won't even reach combat against armies that can shoot with basically anything
    3) couple remaining bleeding guys that reach something they can fight will deal some wounds and perish

    Sure if you play against someone who:
    1) didn't take any chaff
    2) has no shooting or ranged damage
    3) clashes his elite unit with your infantry even though he has lower I
    4) didn't take chariots
    5) didn't take tanky heroes who can hold your unit for most of the game

    Your amazing elven infantry will kick serious butt, but for some amazing reason most successful elven armies (I'm looking mostly at HBE since that is my main army) weren't filled with SM or WL but with dragons, lion chariot heroes and ton of shooting and movement control units.
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  • Adam wrote:

    Knight wrote:

    9thageAwesome wrote:

    Are you kidding. At S5 and S6 dwarves and warriors get crushed if they go second. Wounding on 2+ or 3+ and getting no save or 6+ and parry save if they have it.

    If we are talking about hordes of S5 or S6 infantry and MI that are S5 or S6 with 8-10 models. Initiative is everything. Even S4 Ap1 qualifies if there are enough attacks.

    Do the math on 30 executioners or 8 minotaurs with AHW or 30 swordmasters or 8 once-chosen wrath halberds. I3 units or lower units just get crushed. No way you can fight that when you take 20+ wounds first.

    Initiative is the most important stat as long as the unit can do basically 20+ wounds to anything. Most armies have these hitty units and they aren't deathstars, 8 minos is only 700 points.

    Top level players will tell you initiative is the most important factor on elite units because they all can dish out damage because they are elite for the most part.
    This guy plays in GTs.I can't figure out what's more depressing, (1) that he's right and the solutions to fix it are really difficult to figure out; or (2) the number of other people in this thread that are incapable of understanding fundamentals of wargaming.
    So do I? And no you simply do not have a horde of executioners or sword masters because:1) any half competent player will chaff infantry horde (especially costing 700-800 pts)
    2) t3 5+save you won't even reach combat against armies that can shoot with basically anything
    3) couple remaining bleeding guys that reach something they can fight will deal some wounds and perish

    Sure if you play against someone who:
    1) didn't take any chaff
    2) has no shooting or ranged damage
    3) clashes his elite unit with your infantry even though he has lower I
    4) didn't take chariots
    5) didn't take tanky heroes who can hold your unit for most of the game

    Your amazing elven infantry will kick serious butt, but for some amazing reason most successful elven armies (I'm looking mostly at HBE since that is my main army) weren't filled with SM or WL but with dragons, lion chariot heroes and ton of shooting and movement control units.
    Agreed - successful tournament HBE lists have been based primarily around the idea that t3 is terrible and anything other than an always on ward save is terrible.

    Its got to the point where one of our monsters main usage is chaff clearance. I mean should it really be the case that the rest of our options are so poor we have people deploying a 400 point flame phoenix on each flank as a primary method of board control?

    I think the OP in this thread is just a bit silly to be honest: "if all your other stats are good then the last remaining stat is completely OP" just isnt a statment worth discussing.

    As a side note the changes to swordmasters in 1.3 could bring then back to lists as they have regained the reliability they needed so badly.. guess we will see.
  • Adam wrote:

    Knight wrote:

    9thageAwesome wrote:

    Are you kidding. At S5 and S6 dwarves and warriors get crushed if they go second. Wounding on 2+ or 3+ and getting no save or 6+ and parry save if they have it.

    If we are talking about hordes of S5 or S6 infantry and MI that are S5 or S6 with 8-10 models. Initiative is everything. Even S4 Ap1 qualifies if there are enough attacks.

    Do the math on 30 executioners or 8 minotaurs with AHW or 30 swordmasters or 8 once-chosen wrath halberds. I3 units or lower units just get crushed. No way you can fight that when you take 20+ wounds first.

    Initiative is the most important stat as long as the unit can do basically 20+ wounds to anything. Most armies have these hitty units and they aren't deathstars, 8 minos is only 700 points.

    Top level players will tell you initiative is the most important factor on elite units because they all can dish out damage because they are elite for the most part.
    This guy plays in GTs.I can't figure out what's more depressing, (1) that he's right and the solutions to fix it are really difficult to figure out; or (2) the number of other people in this thread that are incapable of understanding fundamentals of wargaming.
    So do I? And no you simply do not have a horde of executioners or sword masters because:1) any half competent player will chaff infantry horde (especially costing 700-800 pts)
    2) t3 5+save you won't even reach combat against armies that can shoot with basically anything
    3) couple remaining bleeding guys that reach something they can fight will deal some wounds and perish

    Sure if you play against someone who:
    1) didn't take any chaff
    2) has no shooting or ranged damage
    3) clashes his elite unit with your infantry even though he has lower I
    4) didn't take chariots
    5) didn't take tanky heroes who can hold your unit for most of the game

    Your amazing elven infantry will kick serious butt, but for some amazing reason most successful elven armies (I'm looking mostly at HBE since that is my main army) weren't filled with SM or WL but with dragons, lion chariot heroes and ton of shooting and movement control units.
    I'm half-assing this reply, but here goes:

    Top GT players are taking exactly what you're describing: giant units of Sword Masters. They are horrifying. Combined with the fact that Height 2 chaff/screening units are so ubiquitous in the HE book, it's an absolute no-brainer. And a 100 point magic banner? Ok, now all 30+ auto-hit attacks (it's typically closer to 40) that the SMs are swinging are AP(1) before buffs squish your unit -- often times before or simo with characters from other books. Enjoy coming back on 4s to hit with whatever you have left though.