Should factions be consolidated to move the game farther away from WH?

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  • I firmly belive that a merge of KoE and EoS won't happen. (No, that is no official Statement, but it is my oppinion.)
    Doesn't have: Vermin Swarm, Dread Elves, Warriors of the Dark Gods and Infernal Dwarfs. Has: Everything else.

    Translation DE

    SA ACS

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  • Vulcan wrote:

    ewar wrote:

    No. Next question.
    Not even going to try justifying it? Tell us why so we can understand your point of view, please.
    There's really not a lot of point. Forgive me for saying this, but you're one of the professional complainers on the boards (I don't think I've ever read a single word of yours which is positive about the project), and your suggestion was to roll DE into HBE because... army balance?? Two armies diametrically opposed in essentially all fantasy literature, should be combined because you feel DE players are greedy asking for cult lists?

    I mean, it renders any discussion moot when you take the topic and then just complain about army balance. Again. Whilst also managing to disparage the entire RT, which is a pretty good effort.

    I have a KoE army from days of yore, they don't need to be rolled into EoS from a fluff perspective and also - given they still seem to hold their own at UK tournaments I would suggest their army balance isn't too far off either.

    IF the 9A started deleting lists, it would be a recipe for disaster - the ill will generated in the player base would be astounding and they would be no better than GW with AoS debacle. Just leave it alone, it's fine.
  • If the factions are too similar then differentiate them. As far as I am concerned KoE plays very differently to EoS, even if the only difference is in my head (which it isn't).

    The similarities won't be solved until KoE get their book done and it'll almost certainly be done last. Partly because we do well in team tournaments, but mostly because the Devs are scared of it! It will be the hardest one to get right, you can't be too close to EoS and have to focus on cavalry, which are designed to suck in the core rules. I don't envy that job.

    And that doesn't even consider all the KoE forum trolls! (Myself included!) :D
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • I'

    Sir_Sully wrote:

    The similarities won't be solved until KoE get their book done and it'll almost certainly be done last. Partly because we do well in team tournaments, but mostly because the Devs are scared of it! It will be the hardest one to get right, you can't be too close to EoS and have to focus on cavalry, which are designed to suck in the core rules. I don't envy that job.
    I'm not sure that is true. Making KoE last would be veeeery bad for PR. KoE has been getting promises of being the next book to be fixed for a long time now. That combined with the fact that unlike most armies, KoE can't be played the way the community thinks it should be played at least in my opinion would put it higher on the list to get redone. (Note: this is just my personal opinion, but if KoE was last I'm not sure there would be anyone left to play the remade army)
  • Morgan_Treeman wrote:

    how about giving KoE impact hits for some of their mounted units? Maybe that would make them more distinct from EoS.
    RT shot it down.

    And in the end, that's WHY I tend to be so down on the DE and KoE armies anymore. There have been TONS of great suggestions on how to solve the armies' issues. Each and every one has been shot down, and instead we got what the RT thought was better.... but in play was not.
  • skipperthegaminggeek wrote:

    Having played Empire in WF, they are the bards of the Wargamming world. Little bit of everything but ruling nothing. I think they should have a splash of cavelry but giving them the ability to have better armor save than THE calvery army is a bit ludicrous. If EoS has Demigryphs then boost the hippogriff for KoE or something to the like. There is a workable fix out there for all this.
    I am sure Empire got Demigryphs because GW already was abandoning Bretonnia because of sales.
    They threw everything into Empire.
    Knights in Empire? In a Renaissance army? Pistoleers on horses sure! Even some kind of light ridden unit with swords and a short lance. But proper knights I don't see them fit from my pov.

    What I don't understand is why in this project it has been continued. Why haven't the ABs been redone.
    The good thing is it's not too late!
    I'm not saying take that from EoS because people have the minis and loosing AB entries always hurts. But fix KoE and adjust EoS where needed according to the new fluff that is being created here.

    I love the idea of KoE being a more feyish army with magic deeply woven into it and EoS being a more Steampunkish Renaissance army.

    But I am not writing the fluff ;)

    The post was edited 2 times, last by nmaier ().

  • Just_Flo wrote:

    I firmly belive that a merge of KoE and EoS won't happen. (No, that is no official Statement, but it is my oppinion.)
    Early in the project this was threatened and the uproar then was not pretty. I don't think they would consider it again.

    nicreap wrote:

    Sir_Sully wrote:

    The similarities won't be solved until KoE get their book done and it'll almost certainly be done last. Partly because we do well in team tournaments, but mostly because the Devs are scared of it! It will be the hardest one to get right, you can't be too close to EoS and have to focus on cavalry, which are designed to suck in the core rules. I don't envy that job.
    I'm not sure that is true. Making KoE last would be veeeery bad for PR. KoE has been getting promises of being the next book to be fixed for a long time now. That combined with the fact that unlike most armies, KoE can't be played the way the community thinks it should be played at least in my opinion would put it higher on the list to get redone. (Note: this is just my personal opinion, but if KoE was last I'm not sure there would be anyone left to play the remade army)
    It is true that it would be VEEEEEERY bad for PR, but given the history the KoE book has had, any promises or commitments to make it the next book after the first 4 are going to be met with a lot of skepticism. Track Record to date:

    Lets just say - starting from an army concept 12 years in the making...
    - Early on it was identified it was meant to be ID and KoE, then there was only had time for one so we get bumped.
    - Then KoE was given more options because we couldn't have more units, but were starting so far behind. Only for the "Streamlining" to remove most of these additional choices. (And some choices still have never seen the table in any tournaments)
    - Then we were delayed again to have more time to rebalance, but the ABC work was rejected and older KoE players will remember the Impact Hits Relique fiasco, (which still hasn't been fixed)
    - Then ID was overcooked and needed to focus on for background setting so we get bumped again.
    - Then for copyright reasons KoE can't be one of the first 4 so KoE is bumped again.

    Each of these had a legitimate reason for the delay, but unfortunately until the book is actually delivered, there will be a fair amount of skepticism in the community as to the delivery date. Rest Assured @tulmir and I have some ideas coming to ensure there is continued engagement, but knowing that it will be at least a year until the first 4 are done and fast progress can be made on the next is going to be quite a wait - but after 14 Years we are good at that.

    KoE Community Support

  • (And some choices still have never seen the table in any tournaments)
    I used Knights Forlorn and Brigands in at least 2 Tourneys. So I belive there is only one Castellan Option left as unused.
    Doesn't have: Vermin Swarm, Dread Elves, Warriors of the Dark Gods and Infernal Dwarfs. Has: Everything else.

    Translation DE

    SA ACS

    Please don't forget to check out Lustria Online! lustria-online.com/, tabletopwelt.de and warhammer-board.de
  • ah the reliquary impact hit fiasko... totally forget that.....

    I find the stomp in 0.7 the best example how this project works :)

    BTW there are also guys like me who started KoE with 9th age and I would guess there are many.

    I don't want to wait 10 years.

    I didn't start KoE (well I did but never played them) in warhammer 8td because the gw worker told me they are old and can't really win battles except you are a pro. Or in short they are weak and have no choices.

    So I really hope they have KoE in their point of view.
    Imo it is the least working book right now.
    Lowest number of units and even then some are not use able for the majority. Just flo loves to field something weird and being good with it :)

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
    Benjamin Franklin


  • Klexe wrote:



    Imo it is the least working book right now.
    I think half the army forums have players saying this about their books and this will never, ever change no matter how long T9A runs for :D

    I know Sylvans the best at the moment and it is a common sight to see people say that is the hardest book to get right etc because of the unusual play style. Similar complaints to KoE I guess.

    As a tomb king player in 8th, I would just say the best thing you can do is pick an army for the models, theme and play style. Power levels come and go over time, no point focusing on it IMO.
  • ewar wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    Imo it is the least working book right now.
    I think half the army forums have players saying this about their books and this will never, ever change no matter how long T9A runs for :D
    I know Sylvans the best at the moment and it is a common sight to see people say that is the hardest book to get right etc because of the unusual play style. Similar complaints to KoE I guess.

    As a tomb king player in 8th, I would just say the best thing you can do is pick an army for the models, theme and play style. Power levels come and go over time, no point focusing on it IMO.
    That is why i play KoE and not my HBE army because i like the models and theme (from my perspective) but there is no denying that
    Disclaimer: Useless for me = not used at all or rarely or only in fun builts. Or in short. Something else is always better and they have no task.
    1. KoE has the least choices with 14 units. Out of these 13 there are many who are just a little bit stronger versions of the other
    2. Out of these 14 choices: Pilgrems, Green knight, Forlorn and Questing knights and to some extend scouts + ballista are semi useable. Even realms are rarely used, especially their weapon options. So lets say the four first and each 1/3 of the other three. This means at LEAST 21% of your book is not useable with 3 choices and if we take 4 we have 28%. Before the reintroduction of brigands we had only 13 choices which meant 30%. Well at least 1/5 up to 1/3 of our book is plain useless :D
    3. Characters: We have 2 Fighter. 1 Mage and 1 Peasant hero = 4 characters. Peasant hero sucks = 25% useless :D and the 2 fighters are 1 entry... this means 3 different characters... really much flavour :)

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
    Benjamin Franklin


  • Klexe wrote:

    I didn't start KoE (well I did but never played them) in warhammer 8td because the gw worker told me they are old and can't really win battles except you are a pro. Or in short they are weak and have no choices.
    Funny, when at the begining of 8th I was told the same thing, I asked what are worst possible builds of them, reply was all cav. And that is how I starter my all cav Brets. I also adored models but that sounds less awesome.

    BTW @Just_Flo is there reason why I cant like or quote your posta?
  • There are lots of valid points in that the 2 armies are similar and could be merged.

    but you could make the same arguments for the Elf factions. The Orcs and Beastmen. Goblins and Skaven. Dwarfs and infernal Dwarfs, etc...

    The problem with KoE is that it has been a bare bones army for a decade.
    when T9A was first released i saw the dwarf holds get golems and an Air Ship. While KoE didnt get anything. Foot knights sorta?

    KoE just needs some brainstorming to give it a different feel than EoS
    This is a fantasy game. You can do lots.

    D&D is great inspiration.
    EoS have Clerics(preachers) while KoE have Paladins(grail knight unit).
    but the grail knights dont really feel like enchanted warriors.

    borrow some inspiration from kings of war and throw in some water elementals. Lady of the freaken lake has got to have some water elementals!!!

    And everyone seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room, or rather the hippo in the room: Add a Hippogryph unit. They are like demigryphs but fly. Have them ridden by grail knights only.
    unit consists of 1-3 hippogrphs.


    and this is just me brainstorming at this moment.