Should factions be consolidated to move the game farther away from WH?

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  • durley wrote:

    Why? Just charge more points for them. If they were using same category there would be no problem because you had to choose where to spend points.
    • it would further help to play avoidance for KoE which no one wants.
    • It would be freaking expensive which would mean less models which would mean higher concentration of power which would again mean they would play avoidance.
    • It has to be weaker then on foot models because of balance. Else all other races would cry. Flying stuff is always t4 except character mounts. Fly = choose your target and not chaff able = needs to be weaker.
    • This means it also is weaker on the grind. Or do you want to pay 400 points for 1 hippo ? This would be somewhat the category. A 3 men unit would cost about 900 at least !!
    • WoulD make pegasus obsolete. Same as war dogs. Why take yeomen if you can take cheaper dogs as chaff. Why take pegasus if you can take better hippos.

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
    Benjamin Franklin


  • Klexe wrote:

    durley wrote:

    Why? Just charge more points for them. If they were using same category there would be no problem because you had to choose where to spend points.
    • it would further help to play avoidance for KoE which no one wants.
    If I'm paying points for cc unit I would preffer them to get into cc to get their points back
    • It would be freaking expensive which would mean less models which would mean higher concentration of power which would again mean they would play avoidance.
    Less models, same hitting power. When someone takes deamon prince you aren't thinking that they were taken to avoid enemy. They were taken to wreck some faces.

    • It has to be weaker then on foot models because of balance. Else all other races would cry. Flying stuff is always t4 except character mounts. Fly = choose your target and not chaff able = needs to be weaker.
    I'm all for T4. I would preffer them to be S5 A3 with maybe Ap as upgrade. Again not hero hippo, flying demigrypghs hippo.

    • This means it also is weaker on the grind. Or do you want to pay 400 points for 1 hippo ? This would be somewhat the category. A 3 men unit would cost about 900 at least !!
    You pay a lot, but you would get a lot in return.

    • WoulD make pegasus obsolete. Same as war dogs. Why take yeomen if you can take cheaper dogs as chaff. Why take pegasus if you can take better hippos.
    Pegs are chaff/support unit. Those guys are here to smash through enemies. Different purpose, only common thing is that booth units fly.
    Also I'm against dogs as their own unit. Make them upgrade to levies (one use only, declare before enemy rolls for charge, -1d3 enemy charge range).

  • since when are highly expensive t4 s4 a2 i4 stomp with Ws 4 s6 a2 riders on top with as 2+ and ward chaff ?

    With old options for very cheap pegasus I would agree.

    Hippo with t4 and higher dmg would mean they would have less armor. They need a weakness too and just saying "make them more expensive" does not work.

    Also why do you need it ? You can just take pegasus

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
    Benjamin Franklin


  • As Much as I disagree with Anthony's end recommendation - his assertion that Empire just do everything better and encroached on where KoE can expand to is right on point.

    Ran this Analysis in December 2015:

    Jurid wrote:

    ...
    The Assumptions I made for comparison were:
    - AWSR's Cancel as they should be same effect (Which I actually don't agree with but that is for another post)
    - I know our units are faster, problem is faster only counts if you are better in shooting. If you are not better in the Magic/Shooting Phase, speed means nothing as your opponent can turtle and blast you apart, making you engage.
    - Options can be swapped in and out freely - there should be no such thing as a sub-optimal option as we keep being told. (So no chastising for using Lance and Shield instead of GW, or Barding on Peg Knights or Aspirants - IF you think those are poor options to choose, that too is another post).
    - Also - the argument "But you could take Beloved", or "That doesn't allow for the fact you can take Stakes for your Archers", again that would be a post about the price of options, the base unit shouldn't be penalized.

    PositionDescriptionKoEKoe-PriceEoSEoS-PriceNotesPreferred Unit
    GeneralHorse, 2+AS, LanceDuke145Knight Commander, Lance, Shield153Same Stat Line, Although Knight Commander with Shield STARTS on 1+ AS and has ItP vs Our impact Hits and Stronger Horse.GOOD BALANCE
    BSBBSB, 2+AS, LancePaladin, Lance120Captain, Horse, Shield, Lance, Plate Armour118Same Stat Line, we Get +1WS and our Horse/Impact Hits, They get the Ability to Shoot.GOOD BALANCE
    Level 4HorseGrail Damsel, Horse230Archwizard, Horse230Identical Price, but EoS Gets +1T and ALL LoresEOS Every Time
    Level 2Damsel105Wizard100Same Stat Line, We HAVE to pay for Barding, EoS Get ALL LoresEOS Every Time
    12 ErrantsFC, 2+ ASKnights Aspirant, with Barding294Electoral Cavalry, Replace GW with Lance, add Shield270Identical Stats, but EoS Don’t have mandatory overrun or ITP and are cheaperEOS Every Time
    12 KotRFCKnights of the Realm306Electoral Cavalry, Replace GW with Lance, add Shield, Upgrade to Imperial Cav318For 12 Points more, EoS get +1 StrengthEOS Every Time
    20 ArchersCrossbowsPeasant Bowmen, Crossbows160Light Infantry160Identical (They Get Support, we Get Insignificant), but EoS Gets +1WSEOS Every Time
    20 ArchersCrossbowsPeasant Bowmen, Crossbows160Light Infantry160Identical (They Get Support, we Get Insignificant), but EoS Gets +1WSEOS Every Time
    50 M@ASpearsPeasant Levy, Spears200Heavy Infantry, Spears250For 50 More, EoS Get +1WS, +2Ld.Suport and Insignificant are EquivalentGOOD BALANCE
    12 KotQFCKnights of the Quest342Knightly Orders342Same Price, KoE Get Questing Vow, +1WS. EOS Get +1AGOOD BALANCE
    3 Monst CavPeg Knights, Barding175Knights of Sun Griffon, with Shield, Lance165EoS Get Fear, +1I, +1S and +1WS on Mount, +1W and are 10 cheaper. We get FlyEOS Every Time
    Min ChaffCrossbows/Pistols5 Yeomen Outriders, Crossbows60Reiters, with Lance/Pistol80+1BS, and an Extra S4 Attack in First Round of Combat for 20 PointsGOOD BALANCE
    Min ChaffCrossbows/Pistols5 Yeomen Outriders, Crossbows60Reiters, with Lance/Pistol80+1BS, and an Extra S4 Attack in First Round of Combat for 20 PointsGOOD BALANCE
    War MachineBolt ThrowerBallista45-No Real Equivalent (And These Points were spent on Heavy Infantry)KOE Unique
    War MachineCatapaultTrebuchet130Mortar1205" S3(AP1) vs 3"S4(Ap1, Ordanance)GOOD BALANCE


    As can be seen, if I were allowed to run a combined army, there would be no real incentive from a competitive standpoint to ever pick anything from the KoE list. Certainly there might be cheesy builds with certain combinations, but that could be said of EoS also, they just start with better units.

    This is not an attack on the EoS - more so a comparison to help show the RT we are STILL behind their theoretic balance point. (And I also note that the EoS get 6 point spears, why are we paying 10 again?

    Lets do it Again for 1.3 Since we are going to be stuck Here. Numbers came out to 4650 Lists just to try keep as similar for comparison as first time - Just removed Level 2 casters and kept rest so it could go like for like.



    PositionDescriptionKoEKoe-PriceEoSEoS-PriceNotesPreferred Unit
    GeneralHorse, 2+AS, LanceDuke295Knight Commander, Lance, Shield246We have 2+/6++, EoS are on 1+, but EoS is 49 Points Cheaper AND Unlocks Knight UpgradesKnight Commander (due to Cost)
    BSBBSB, 2+AS, LancePaladin, Lance241Marshal, Horse, Shield, Lance, Plate Armour, Barding248Same Stat Line, Same 2+/6++ vs 1+. Marshal has ability to ShootGOOD Balance
    Level 4HorseDamsel, Horse, Master, 4 Spells420Wizard, Horse, Master, 4 Spells400Blessed vs 20 Points Cheaper and Extra PathsGOOD Balance
    12 AspirantsFC, 2+ ASKnights Aspirant, with Barding608Electoral Cavalry, Replace GW with Lance, add Shield, Upgrade to Imperial Cav684Due to Knight Commander, Can't take lower knights. 80 Points up but Stronger (WS, S, 1+) But doesn't get Charge BonusesWe'll call it a Draw due to differences in cost and function
    12 KotRFCKnights of the Realm658Electoral Cavalry, Replace GW with Lance, add Shield, Upgrade to Imperial Cav684Trading off 1+ for 2+/6++, KotR will win this one by Lance Formation and Oath of FealtyKoE Every Time
    20 ArchersCrossbowsPeasant Bowmen, Crossbows340Light Infantry280EoS are saving 60 Points to have +2L. The lose Brazier and Stakes, but 2L AND 60 Points!EOS Every Time
    20 ArchersCrossbowsPeasant Bowmen, Crossbows340Light Infantry280EoS are saving 60 Points to have +2L. The lose Brazier and Stakes, but 2L AND 60 Points!EOS Every Time
    50 M@ASpears, FCPeasant Levy, Spears, FC420Heavy Infantry, Spears, FC570For 3ppm More, EoS Get +1WS, +2Ld. Support and Insignificant are EquivalentProbably KoE
    12 KotQFCKnights of the Quest678Knightly Orders, Halberds690Identical Price, EoS have 2xS5, Questing HAve 1xS6@I0. Additoinally, EoS have BODYGUARD!?EOS Every Time
    3 Monst CavPeg Knights, Barding360Knights of Sun Griffon, with Shield, Lance310EoS Get Fear, +1I, +1S and +1WS, +1A on Mount, +1W and are 40 cheaper. We get FlyEOS Every Time
    War MachineBolt ThrowerBallista135Cannon2601 Cannon vs 2 BallistaeBalance
    War MachineBolt ThrowerBallista135No Real Equivalent (And These Points were spent on Heavy Infantry)Balance


    Total Points:
    - 4630 For KoE,
    - 4652 For EoS.

    Other than Knights of the Realm and M@A, I would take the EoS equivalent or its a draw in each situation.

    What is worse, is that in this list it is the Cavalry from Empire that is strongest. In a Heads up match against EoS, I will take the KoE Infantry, and want the EoS Cavalry.... External Balance has gotten better, but Internal Balance something has gone terribly terribly wrong...

    KoE Community Support

  • Here's my two cents on the matter, from a perspective of very little if any play with EoS or KoE:

    The Empire of Sonnestahl (if it is like its equivalent in the previous game) seems to be more advanced, or at the cusp of, perhaps, a revolution to break feudal relations, while the Kingdom of Equitaine is most definitely not. Vast majority peasantry, strong feudal relations, a true commitment to feudal "ideals" (vows, prejudice against peasantry, etc.) and so on. I think this is where a differentiation could be found, if the difference is to be found in the background, or, perhaps rather, if the difference is to be grounded in the background (no matter which way it would causally go, if the gameplay difference is made before background difference or background difference made before gameplay difference). This might be a trivial note, and I am sorry if I wasted page space, but I'm sure some people more historically knowledgeable might be able to build on the idea. What are the advantages (and disadvantages) of a strong, "peak feudal" society over a society at the cusp of a (perhaps bourgeois/liberal) revolution?
    Let us lock blades
    You claim whatever you please
    I claim no right but you

    ― Badalle
  • the main part why EoS ist better in cavalry imo is that they have core greatsword still with 2+ as and option for hatred and ward through hero/gameplay.
    Having i0 core as tanky unit with grinding is sooooooooo much better then the questing special equivalent who have zero access to hatred.


    And then they still have also access to lighting reflex

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
    Benjamin Franklin


  • flying doesnt always mean you can pick your target and play avoidance. thats what the fly(x) rule is for.

    and personally i like unique partial rules here and there. Like hippogryhs could have fly but not while charging.

    and hippogryphs dont have to be exact same stats as the lords hippogryph.

    we will have to see what the armybook commity comes up with.

    .....sky chariot pulled by pegasus or hippogryph?

    also grail knights could be like those wizard cav from the elves. Except they could cast a protection/heal bound spell of some sort.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Peacemaker ().

  • bubafett wrote:

    I agree with someone that just simply said no and move on to next question. There's already been a giant fan base that has been frustrated about how much the game has changed since WH. Combining armies will lead to more people quitting , me being one of them. Just leads down a dark path that no one will like
    That's really all I was trying to say when I made this thread.

    I agree 100%. I feel that there are some aspects of this game that some gamers simply over-analyze, and over-think, and I really do feel that to some degree it's simply because they can. The age-old human thing of not letting something be.

    As far as people pointing out that there are certain units, weapons, options that you never see taken in KOE armies at tournaments, again I think that the point flies completely over the competitive head.

    I truly don't understand this fixation on wanting to remove everything from an army book that isn't considered viable at tournaments. So it's not viable for your tournament list? SO what??? Maybe immersive players like to take those items! Leave it alone! If you don't use it, why is it so upsetting to leave it in the book any way? Army books and lore are NOT created ONLY for optimal competitive list building. A fantasy game's army books NEED to tell a story as well as providing stats for models.

    Some of that story and some of that lore and some of the options available will NOT be compatible with logical, optimal lists. All of it isn't SUPPOSED to be. Flails and maces, morning stars, etc. for example makes PERFECT sense for a KOE knight! The lance is the symbol of KOE, but not the ONLY weapon they would use. They would certainly have some knight in the ranks choosing hand weapons while others chose the lance. A charge of heavy horse isn't only effective with a lance. The sheer weight of the charge and impetus of the speed of the horses crashing into the enemy doesn't REQUIRE the lance to be successful. To me, it's the charging formation in the lance SHAPE that is significant, maybe even more than the actual use of the lance as a weapon. It's that arrow-shaped formation of horses knifing into an enemy's battleline that makes a charge of heavy horse work. It's like an ocean tide force that moves all before it. Using lances as weapons is one way they would deliver a charge, but not the ONLY way.

    And that is precisely the reason that the devs. gave KOE Realm Knights the options of weapons! It is yet another piece of the story that HR simply doesn't grasp. He looks at the lance like it's their symbol so they wouldn't use any other weapon? Ever? Makes no sense.

    I want some grounded realism in my factions, not cliches. Lances are not glued to knight's hands, they WOULD choose alternate weapons at times to charge with!

    The fact that a video was made, an actual full discussion suggesting that the way you deal with fantasy factions/cultures when they have some overlap is to eliminate and consolidate them just hit a nerve in me like fews things do. And to suggest that Bretonnia should never have been made in the first place? Another GW "mistake"? I mean are we playing a fantasy game here or are we CEO's merging acquisitions to consolidate profit???? That's what HR's videos feel like! They feel business seminars, not fantasy gaming discussions.

    No, this kind of stuff has to be called out, and I'm happy to be the one to do it. It's ridiculous.
    There are many magic rings in the world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Baranovich ().

  • Peacemaker wrote:

    flying doesnt always mean you can pick your target and play avoidance. thats what the fly(x) rule is for.
    Yeah but it does, since anything with fly always gets to fight wherever and whatever they want, always

    and personally i like unique partial rules here and there. Like hippogryhs could have fly but not while charging.
    Or it's ground move is as fast as it's fly, since it's part horse

    and hippogryphs dont have to be exact same stats as the lords hippogryph.
    demi-hipporgryps, like the demi-gryphs the empire has
    but saying the stats would be the same is a nice strawman to try to kill the idea


    .....sky chariot pulled by pegasus or hippogryph?
    KoE don't have chariots, so no.

    also grail knights could be like those wizard cav from the elves. Except they could cast a protection/heal bound spell of some sort.
    That's an idea
    I think KoE need some Ethereal troops of all kinds, infantry, knights, foot knights and archers.
    This would massively help split them away from the Empire of Sonnstahl and give them a more unique feel, plus it's a way to allow players who liked the LotR ghostly army to be part of T9A relatively easily.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    Display Spoiler
    flying doesnt always mean you can pick your target and play avoidance. thats what the fly(x) rule is for.
    Yeah but it does, since anything with fly always gets to fight wherever and whatever they want, always

    and personally i like unique partial rules here and there. Like hippogryhs could have fly but not while charging.
    Or it's ground move is as fast as it's fly, since it's part horse

    and hippogryphs dont have to be exact same stats as the lords hippogryph.
    demi-hipporgryps, like the demi-gryphs the empire has
    but saying the stats would be the same is a nice strawman to try to kill the idea


    .....sky chariot pulled by pegasus or hippogryph?
    KoE don't have chariots, so no.

    also grail knights could be like those wizard cav from the elves. Except they could cast a protection/heal bound spell of some sort.
    That's an idea

    I think KoE need some Ethereal troops of all kinds, infantry, knights, foot knights and archers.This would massively help split them away from the Empire of Sonnstahl and give them a more unique feel, plus it's a way to allow players who liked the LotR ghostly army to be part of T9A relatively easily.
    That'd be great thematically, as the Kingdom of Equitaine seems almost like an atavism in the age of steam tanks, gyrocopters, etc. It is a ghost itself, persisting beyond its limits, almost unnaturally.

    edit: additionally, it being a ghostly rather than living-dead-flesh kind of deal also points at the fact that its persistence is more social or "spiritual" than physical. The serf and the lord are not the living dead outside of their increasingly obsolete social relation.
    Let us lock blades
    You claim whatever you please
    I claim no right but you

    ― Badalle

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Maxuli ().

  • Maxuli wrote:

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    [[/spoiler]
    I think KoE need some Ethereal troops of all kinds, infantry, knights, foot knights and archers.This would massively help split them away from the Empire of Sonnstahl and give them a more unique feel, plus it's a way to allow players who liked the LotR ghostly army to be part of T9A relatively easily.

    I think if you do Ethereal then you should allow the Green Knight to join that group as well. I think that would be a neat image.
    "Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you."
  • Fairly simple awnser from me:

    - I do not think the game should be moved much farther away from the foundation it was build upon.
    Instead improve where many agree the game lacks depth, feels too random or generally speaking generates more 'un-fun' situations as fun situations.

    What I love about the ninth age is the depth it offers for creators of armies, meaning the hobby will always be on the first spot and ninth age will be an incredible set of rules to work for ANY model your heart desires to play with.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    flying doesnt always mean you can pick your target and play avoidance. thats what the fly(x) rule is for.
    Yeah but it does, since anything with fly always gets to fight wherever and whatever they want, always

    and personally i like unique partial rules here and there. Like hippogryhs could have fly but not while charging.
    Or it's ground move is as fast as it's fly, since it's part horse

    and hippogryphs dont have to be exact same stats as the lords hippogryph.
    demi-hipporgryps, like the demi-gryphs the empire has
    but saying the stats would be the same is a nice strawman to try to kill the idea


    .....sky chariot pulled by pegasus or hippogryph?
    KoE don't have chariots, so no.

    also grail knights could be like those wizard cav from the elves. Except they could cast a protection/heal bound spell of some sort.
    That's an idea
    I think KoE need some Ethereal troops of all kinds, infantry, knights, foot knights and archers.
    This would massively help split them away from the Empire of Sonnstahl and give them a more unique feel, plus it's a way to allow players who liked the LotR ghostly army to be part of T9A relatively easily.

    not a fan of people calling stuff "strawman" just because they disagree.
    Second time someone has quoted me and used that bologne line. The other guy was trolling.

    explain what you mean or dont bother.
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    There are lots of valid points in that the 2 armies are similar and could be merged.

    but you could make the same arguments for the Elf factions. The Orcs and Beastmen. Goblins and Skaven. Dwarfs and infernal Dwarfs, etc...

    The problem with KoE is that it has been a bare bones army for a decade.
    when T9A was first released i saw the dwarf holds get golems and an Air Ship. While KoE didnt get anything. Foot knights sorta?

    KoE just needs some brainstorming to give it a different feel than EoS
    This is a fantasy game. You can do lots.

    D&D is great inspiration.
    EoS have Clerics(preachers) while KoE have Paladins(grail knight unit).
    but the grail knights dont really feel like enchanted warriors.

    borrow some inspiration from kings of war and throw in some water elementals. Lady of the freaken lake has got to have some water elementals!!!

    And everyone seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room, or rather the hippo in the room: Add a Hippogryph unit. They are like demigryphs but fly. Have them ridden by grail knights only.
    unit consists of 1-3 hippogrphs.


    and this is just me brainstorming at this moment.
    Well, there's another problem. There is a strong reluctance in the KoE community to add anything to the book that isn't human.
    This limits the options a lot.

    Regarding the dogs, it could be included like the Goblin fanatics. With hidden. Once you are <15 inch for example, they are released and will crush the enemy.
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    and hippogryphs dont have to be exact same stats as the lords hippogryph.

    demi-hipporgryps, like the demi-gryphs the empire has
    but saying the stats would be the same is a nice strawman to try to kill the idea

    ....
    not a fan of people calling stuff "strawman" just because they disagree.
    Second time someone has quoted me and used that bologne line. The other guy was trolling.

    explain what you mean or dont bother.
    A strawman is an argument where you misrepresent the other persons idea and then explain some fault in that misrepresented idea that doesn't exist in persons original statement.

    eg.
    A: I don't like this cat.
    B: You horrible person, how could anyone hate cats?

    Strawman from B since A didn't say they hated all cats, just that they disliked a specific cat.
    However B made it out that A hates all cats and then used that as a reason to call them a horrible person.

    In this example.
    You are correct that they don't need the same stats as the Lords mount does.
    I am pointing out that somebody could say the stats would be the same as a strawman type argument to shoot down the idea of a unit of them.