Let's play less points than 4500/5000 points!

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Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's Up, Ninth Agers!!! New issue of the Behind the Scenes blog! More rules sneak peeks, a glimpse at the future layout of army entries, and a duel between characters with the new rules.

  • Problem with fewer points is that it makes building a competitive list very hard for some armies. Take for example the VC. By default their general will be very expensive (or forced to take a necromancer as general). I play both VC and O&G. VC will struggle much more due to the reduction in points than the O&G will. A vampire count is 380 points without gear, bloodlines or magic. If you want to have a vampire that has atleast some power you will spend upwards of 800 points. Compare this with the Orc Warlord who can be fully geared and mounted for about 650-700. After the initial general cost VC NEEDS magic, and thus another vampire courtier or necromancer, again costing points. O&G don't need magic to work.

    There are many armies that still work well with fewer points (O&G, VS, DH) and there are armies that get realy hamstrung without atleast 4500 (VC, UD, DL come to mind)

    Don't get me wrong, I love to play faster games, specialy on work days. However I think some armies just get penalized greatly when they are played with less than the amount of points the game is balanced on.

    Cheers
    Baldin
  • rolan wrote:

    What is the problemhere? right now everybody can play the game he likes best:
    You like small games? There is the warband rule
    You like medium games? There is the standard army size
    You like rally big games? There are grand armies

    Why would anybody change that? To force other people to play only what he thinks is best? We have a rule set that allows for all kind of games. That is how it should be.
    Calm down man,

    I am not telling to force to the People to Play another Thing... take it easy.

    I was wondering if could be possiblt to establish a Level of Points which could be balanced for small games. That is all..
  • Baldin wrote:

    Problem with fewer points is that it makes building a competitive list very hard for some armies. Take for example the VC. By default their general will be very expensive (or forced to take a necromancer as general). I play both VC and O&G. VC will struggle much more due to the reduction in points than the O&G will. A vampire count is 380 points without gear, bloodlines or magic. If you want to have a vampire that has atleast some power you will spend upwards of 800 points. Compare this with the Orc Warlord who can be fully geared and mounted for about 650-700. After the initial general cost VC NEEDS magic, and thus another vampire courtier or necromancer, again costing points. O&G don't need magic to work.

    There are many armies that still work well with fewer points (O&G, VS, DH) and there are armies that get realy hamstrung without atleast 4500 (VC, UD, DL come to mind)

    Don't get me wrong, I love to play faster games, specialy on work days. However I think some armies just get penalized greatly when they are played with less than the amount of points the game is balanced on.

    Cheers
    Baldin
    Yes you are right...But my Impression is that a VC in 2000 Points is stronger than in 4500. I mean, if at 4500 you are afraid of place him in front rank and fight against everything, in 2500 there is not almost anything which can deal with your VC... Theoretically... This is my Impression after 4-5 models.

    Last time I played with Empire. Empire characters at 4500 they almost do not have any rol... Just they die easily. In 2500, guys with armour 1+ or 4++ become extremely tough.
  • Artegis wrote:

    Baldin wrote:

    Problem with fewer points is that it makes building a competitive list very hard for some armies. Take for example the VC. By default their general will be very expensive (or forced to take a necromancer as general). I play both VC and O&G. VC will struggle much more due to the reduction in points than the O&G will. A vampire count is 380 points without gear, bloodlines or magic. If you want to have a vampire that has atleast some power you will spend upwards of 800 points. Compare this with the Orc Warlord who can be fully geared and mounted for about 650-700. After the initial general cost VC NEEDS magic, and thus another vampire courtier or necromancer, again costing points. O&G don't need magic to work.

    There are many armies that still work well with fewer points (O&G, VS, DH) and there are armies that get realy hamstrung without atleast 4500 (VC, UD, DL come to mind)

    Don't get me wrong, I love to play faster games, specialy on work days. However I think some armies just get penalized greatly when they are played with less than the amount of points the game is balanced on.

    Cheers
    Baldin
    Yes you are right...But my Impression is that a VC in 2000 Points is stronger than in 4500. I mean, if at 4500 you are afraid of place him in front rank and fight against everything, in 2500 there is not almost anything which can deal with your VC... Theoretically... This is my Impression after 4-5 models.
    Last time I played with Empire. Empire characters at 4500 they almost do not have any rol... Just they die easily. In 2500, guys with armour 1+ or 4++ become extremely tough.
    On the flipside, I actually think characters are a massive problem for low point games.

    When we play low point games, especially my SA army becomes borderline impossible to deal with. Because a well kitted Firstborn can solo half the enemy army without breaking a sweat. At higher point games, this is still strong, despite all the great counters to it - so imagine how powerful it is when you don't have access to the good stuff. Even a Veteran on a raptor is just shy of 400 points, so you can include 2 of these in a 2500 points game.

    Some armies just aren't balanced properly at low point games, and I just don't think it is possible to do so. The difference between 2500 and 4500 is far too great to be easily solved.
  • @Artegis I remember old 1500 points of WFB being full of Skaven armies with 3 Warlock Engineers and Jezzails, HE with 2 RBT 6 Chariots 3 mages and rest in heavy cavalry, Beastmen armies made of 12 Chariots...
    1500 points had restrictions on big monsters and Lord level characters and that was it, it allowed a lot of abuse if no special comp rules were put by the tournament organization.

    I think with some restrictions T9A can work at 2000-2500 points, specially for characters (like @SilverFaith mentioned).
    "They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
    Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!