The current (old) state of T9A....

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's Up, Ninth Agers!!! New issue of the Behind the Scenes blog! More rules sneak peeks, a glimpse at the future layout of army entries, and a duel between characters with the new rules.

  • Lagerlof wrote:

    What the hell happened here :P
    Well, if I had to guess, my long, convoluted conspiracy theory is that @Stunt is sectretly a teacher and he graded the arguments in here. (Rather harshly)

    After that, things just spiralled out of control, man. The off-topic section posters will no longer be confined to their hole! Viva la revolution!
  • JDAntoine wrote:

    Are options removed or gained?

    I know that WotDG/DL gained options because of the 7 Sin introduction. But maby you know much more as I do in regards to the changes?

    So far options were removed and WDG not "gained options because of the 7 Sin introduction", that book isn't out yet.
    " Des chercheurs qui cherchent, on en trouve. Des chercheurs qui trouvent, on en cherche " Charles de Gaulle
    " Si l'on bâtissait la maison du bonheur, la plus grande pièce en serait la salle d'attente " Jules Renard
    " Plus j'aime l'humanité en général, moins j'aime les gens en particulier " Fedor Dostoïevski
  • lawgnome wrote:

    Regarding balance: I almost quit WHFB due to the utter lack of balance and the horrible magic system (my first game ever involved my ogre firebelly jumping down a hole on the first spell due to a 2 dice fireball miscast, and my second game ever involved a nurgle demon prince flying straight into my character bunker and 6 dicing purple sun. Rot in hell, 8th Ed.) So the fact that the outcome of the game is based more on my decision making and less on luck and who has the most overpowered army really appeals to me.


    Magic is going to be worked on, so it should be better than ever (and not stupidly OP. See above). The new armies are going to have a lot of interesting options. Will new units have a million options? No, but I get why.


    Is it broken armies with overpowered garbage meant to make people buy more of certain models? Is it a magic phase that could completely destroy one player's ability to have fun with the game? Is it a million options that were never taken because only certain options were ever worth it?


    If you are starting to feel burnt out, then maybe take a break.
    I feel the same.
    I played 8th because my gaming buddies expected me to. Sure we played with ETC comped armies but it was still ridiculous.

    The game was a lot of times just incredibly frustrating and infuriating. Playing against HE 2+ ward save Character spam busses and several 1+ rerollable/5++ demon princes every game. 90% of the time the games were decided by magic. As Empire my units win combat by getting buffed with magic or die if I fail to cast, so fun. Also Dwellers below / purple sun / cacophonic choir were such fun games. Choir was torture playing against a flying demon prince with a full cav army and he flies in the middle of my army -> irresistable choir -> 50% of my army dies, snap.

    Also playing Empire there were so many options. The thought process of building armies was:
    I'm going to take a steam tank, a cannon, priest on war altar, 2 units of demigryphs, 3 light wizards.
    Now let's see what my army is going to include, maybe some core halberdiers and oh I've used all my points.
    There was no point having Greatswords, flagellants, knightly orders, all were bad. Only take if you want to severely make the game more difficult for yourself. Speed of Light on demigryphs won games. Cast it -> win all combats.

    Magic was ruining games. Why have strategy when you can attack first with great weapons and crush all enemies before they attack (elves) or when you can have 1+/3++ and S7, T5 (Chaos) or just spam overpowered spells? My best games were had against Dark Elves played by someone about as unlucky as me. I would win a game now and then. HE and Chaos were in a legion of their own, Empire and others were far behind. Empire would've had 0 players at ETC were it not for light council being really OP against Demons/Monsters/Undead.

    I love what T9A is doing. Magic doesn't turn games anymore, I can't get 20-0'd by one spell anymore. Sure some armies are still better than others but the balance is much better than it's ever been. Imperial Guard vs Knights of the Sun Griffon is a thing to consider (sun grifs still very good, guard need something extra to compete more). I just don't like what's been done to magic. A wizard with master, 4 spells and a medium cost arcane item feels very expensive (Master w 4 spells easily 350+ points). Spells are okay now, but spells like +2ws/i in divination feels useless now. If I manage to boost GW Imperial Guard with Know thy Enemy AND Lightning Reflexes via a wagon, GW elves will STILL hit me at the same time. In short I'm starting to question if magic is worth investing in anymore. Sure spells are useful but they don't feel good enough. Thaumaturgy is decent because you can reroll 1's so you can succeed in spells with less points spent in magic.

    That said I think elves with great weapons and lightning reflexes are a core problem in the game. It's to do with great weapons, high initiative and ws and lightning reflexes. They attack before human knights that charge them, slaughtering them before the knights attack. I'm not sure what can be done about it but there is still a need for some major changes to the base interactions. I hope V2 will fix some of these. I just don't think it's fair my Knight Commander that costs some 400 points attacks at the same time as swordmasters with great weapons.
    It's okay, it has frenzy.
  • Sir_Sully wrote:

    Limeblossom wrote:

    accused the team of being in favor of tournament players
    This is a fact. They are massively in favour of tournament plays for 2 reasons:
    • The ETC (or Elephant Training Centre - I like to think that the ETC is where the team train the Elephant in the Room).
    • Tournament play is documented.

    And that is why The 9th Age should also be playtested and documented by free-time players, narrative players, RPG lovers and other people to gain more feedback to improve the game.

    Magic should be overwhelming indeed. Imagine you're fighting against a one-man army that could crush your skull without touching you. You're risking your points for that and it should be highly rewarded.

    I still value the concept of RPG in wargaming. It's one of the basics that made games like Fantasy and 40K great too.

    And again I apologize for commenting late on the forum. Had some personal issues that had to be fixed.
  • DarkSky wrote:

    Limeblossom wrote:

    I loved Fantasy for it's customizations, awesome and mattering magic and possibilities. Right now I see all that being removed from the project
    Can you elaborate what exactly got removed by T9A and how it could be re-introduced?
    Regarding magic: I don't like the current magic either, but I didn't like the magic before much better anyway. What would you expect from an exciting magic phase? Do you want the "will he roll a double-six for his purple sun" back or the "I'll just throw fireballs around" magic phase? Or did you expect the T9A to actually improve magic, but failed up until now? I think it would be important for T9A to understand the reasons for your distress (and that of other players).
    If you missed the hundreds of pages of discussion this every subject I don't know what to tell you.

    HJFudge wrote:

    I think a large issue comes from we have different players who want entirely different things from this game.

    Some of those people are straight up going to be disappointed.

    Am I happy with the direction this game is going in?

    If you asked me that right after 1.2 was released I'd say "Hard No."

    If you asked me that now? I'd say 'Well, mostly, but with some strong qualifiers'



    My biggest issue with the game direction is how we insist on tying ourselves to the ideas of the past. If we are going to stand on our own, and we should, we really need to stop thinking with the old mindset. And unfortunately a lot of us still are.
    No, the problem is many of us wanted T9A to be a BALANCED form of WFB; a "NextHammer", if you will. Not the 'NotHammer' it has become.
  • Many of us did want simply a rebalanced WFB.

    Many of us wanted to more than simply minor changes and rebalancing.

    Many of us had entirely different ideas of what a simple rebalanced WFB would look like.

    Many of us had a lot of different ideas on where we should make major changes, and even IF we should.

    At this point, a simple Nexthammer is not an option. There are options for that out there already, and they are kinda fun. We have a chance to be something interesting and unique. So lets be it.

    Conceptual Design Team

  • Zywus wrote:

    Clockwork wrote:

    what is the obsession with "customisation"? If you have two options, but one is rubbish/overpriced/not useful at all, do you really have two options or is it just a false choice?
    What's the point in having 100 magic items if 10 of them is obviously superior? Of course, people can choose to willingly handicap themselves by taking the sub-par ones, but why should people have to handicap themselves to get some variety? Where's the fun in that?
    The ideal would of course be to have 100 items that all have their uses and will be roughly equally often included in peoples armies. This is of course very hard to do, but if the choice is between 10 no-brainers and 90 sub-par items or simply 20 items, all worthwhile ones. I'd argue that it's the latter option where people will experience more actual customization.
    1. Yup. What puzzles me is that apparently, the DT is still considering giving a lot of items, units, magic a complete overhaul while a few customizations (like price) would already make things more viable. Let alone reconsidering units that are already fine as they are. Let the viable units and combinations be as they are and adjust all those that are unbalanced. Only do a major overhaul if an underlying system seems to be broken. Otherwise I'd think fine tuning would be the prefered instrument towards a better balanced 2.0 in which far more units are viable.

    2. One thing I like less is all the categories, staring prices/additional prices and hard capped unit sizes. Sometimes it feels a bit too constraining at times (and only catered for 4500 points). Often I am trying to make an army list only to find out I'm exceeding some category or other with 4 points. And as mentioned before, as a side effect it kind of enforces a MSU play style.

    3. The DT should be careful with too many AB specific stuff and lots of separate rules and special abilities for each army. Of which currently 50% isn't used in competitive settings. It doesn't help attracting new players and makes the learning curve steeper and steeper. The game could do with a little more simplification.
  • Vulcan wrote:

    If you missed the hundreds of pages of discussion this every subject I don't know what to tell you.
    Obviously you have nothing important to tell me, if you can't understand the background of my question and the quite important distinction.

    People claiming they want a "balanced 8th" and simultaneously complaining about every change to a deeply unbalanced design like the magic phase was are hypocritical and ignorant.
    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/

    #freekillerinstinct
  • Teowulff wrote:

    Zywus wrote:

    Clockwork wrote:

    what is the obsession with "customisation"? If you have two options, but one is rubbish/overpriced/not useful at all, do you really have two options or is it just a false choice?
    What's the point in having 100 magic items if 10 of them is obviously superior? Of course, people can choose to willingly handicap themselves by taking the sub-par ones, but why should people have to handicap themselves to get some variety? Where's the fun in that?The ideal would of course be to have 100 items that all have their uses and will be roughly equally often included in peoples armies. This is of course very hard to do, but if the choice is between 10 no-brainers and 90 sub-par items or simply 20 items, all worthwhile ones. I'd argue that it's the latter option where people will experience more actual customization.
    1. Yup. What puzzles me is that apparently, the DT is still considering giving a lot of items, units, magic a complete overhaul while a few customizations (like price) would already make things more viable. Let alone reconsidering units that are already fine as they are. Let the viable units and combinations be as they are and adjust all those that are unbalanced. Only do a major overhaul if an underlying system seems to be broken. Otherwise I'd think fine tuning would be the prefered instrument towards a better balanced 2.0 in which far more units are viable.
    2. One thing I like less is all the categories, staring prices/additional prices and hard capped unit sizes. Sometimes it feels a bit too constraining at times (and only catered for 4500 points). Often I am trying to make an army list only to find out I'm exceeding some category or other with 4 points. And as mentioned before, as a side effect it kind of enforces a MSU play style.

    3. The DT should be careful with too many AB specific stuff and lots of separate rules and special abilities for each army. Of which currently 50% isn't used in competitive settings. It doesn't help attracting new players and makes the learning curve steeper and steeper. The game could do with a little more simplification.
    The point is that even though they are not optimal for min/max usage, such magic items might have a very strong narrative, RPG, and/or fluffy side to them, making it a perfect choice for that kind of player. I know many on this forum fail to understand such views, but I assure you, players like that exits.

    Right now the game is uninspiring because there is no x-factor in the game: it's just move units, roll dice and remove models without anything unexpected happening - the "fun bar" never peaks or plummets. Say what you will about 8th edition, but that game had x-factor and gave me numerous wonderful memories of ups and downs. I used to think GW made awful games (rules-wise), I have totally changed my mind during this 9th Age period.
    The 9 Age Army Book: Norse Wolfborn
    docdro.id/mcYNDp8
  • Can't say I miss getting purpled sun down the line of my army and being wiped out turn two.

    Can't say I miss having a daemon princes destroying my hole army.

    Can't say I miss every time I vsed dwarfs or chaos dwarfs, they always sat in the corner and castled, and blew your army to pieces before reaching them.

    Can't say I miss having 1 magic spell wipe out a hole deathstar.

    Can't say I miss tomb kings, Brets, wood elf, dark elfs, beastmen Never being a competitive army.

    Can't say I miss having close to 500 plus point unit ( old points ) of daemons spawning behind my army and saying good game turn 1.

    Can't say I miss 1 unit of beast of nurgle nearly wiping out a hole army.

    Can't say I missed always having the upper hand to pre guessing war machine measurements due to having a trade back ground compared to others.

    Can't say i miss majority of armies only having one type of play style/build.

    Can't say I miss always vsing 2 steam tanks and Demi grif x 2 units every time I vsed empire.

    Can't say I miss that majority of armies had so many units that were unplayable.

    Can't say I miss that we had some type of Swedish comp list to try and balance a game but still let so many broken things through.

    Can't say I miss a non clear rule book.

    Can't say I miss 8th edition at all :)

    To say 9th age has no clutch moments in it, I disagree I've had some of the biggest game changing moments in game which was due to skill, compared to max dicing dwellers....

    If You're not a fan of 9th age, feel free to play 8.5 no one is forcing you to play 9th.
  • Stunt wrote:

    Can't say I miss getting purpled sun down the line of my army and being wiped out turn two.

    Can't say I miss having a daemon princes destroying my hole army.

    Can't say I miss every time I vsed dwarfs or chaos dwarfs, they always sat in the corner and castled, and blew your army to pieces before reaching them.

    Can't say I miss having 1 magic spell wipe out a hole deathstar.

    Can't say I miss tomb kings, Brets, wood elf, dark elfs, Never being a competitive army.

    Can't say I miss always vsing 2 steam tanks and Demi grif x 2 units every time I vsed empire.

    Can't say I miss that majority of armies had so many units that were unplayable.

    Can't say I miss that we had some type of Swedish comp list to try and balance a game but still let so many broken things through.

    Can't say I miss a non clear rule book.

    Can't say I miss 8th edition at all :)

    To say 9th age has no clutch moments in it, I disagree I've had some of the biggest game changing moments in game which was due to skill, compared to max dicing dwellers....
    That is my point though, you remember all those things for a reason, and I bet you have some fun moments too; like when the wizard flying over to purple sun you, rolls a misfire and commits a spectacular suicide. I have loads of such memories, but none i 9th... Closest thing is when a chariot rolls a 1 on their impact hits ;( I don't miss 8th per see, but I miss the unexpected - 9th has become so boringly predictable...
    The 9 Age Army Book: Norse Wolfborn
    docdro.id/mcYNDp8
  • grim squeaker wrote:

    Stunt wrote:

    Can't say I miss getting purpled sun down the line of my army and being wiped out turn two.

    Can't say I miss having a daemon princes destroying my hole army.

    Can't say I miss every time I vsed dwarfs or chaos dwarfs, they always sat in the corner and castled, and blew your army to pieces before reaching them.

    Can't say I miss having 1 magic spell wipe out a hole deathstar.

    Can't say I miss tomb kings, Brets, wood elf, dark elfs, Never being a competitive army.

    Can't say I miss always vsing 2 steam tanks and Demi grif x 2 units every time I vsed empire.

    Can't say I miss that majority of armies had so many units that were unplayable.

    Can't say I miss that we had some type of Swedish comp list to try and balance a game but still let so many broken things through.

    Can't say I miss a non clear rule book.

    Can't say I miss 8th edition at all :)

    To say 9th age has no clutch moments in it, I disagree I've had some of the biggest game changing moments in game which was due to skill, compared to max dicing dwellers....
    That is my point though, you remember all those things for a reason, and I bet you have some fun moments too; like when the wizard flying over to purple sun you, rolls a misfire and commits a spectacular suicide. I have loads of such memories, but none i 9th... Closest thing is when a chariot rolls a 1 on their impact hits ;( I don't miss 8th per see, but I miss the unexpected - 9th has become so boringly predictable...
    The point is that those things were only "fun" for one player.

    And are you seriously arguing that the only reason you remember things is because they are fun? Just because an experience is memorable doesnt make it wanted or needed, all of the above examples were horrible situations that shouldn't be possible in a game.
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