Tribes: Bloodlines/Cults equivalent for O&G

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  • Tribes: Bloodlines/Cults equivalent for O&G

    What? A system to carve up some of the options in the O&G book into somewhat mutually exclusive sets. Like Cults or Bloodlines.

    Why? A book or codex that allows a huge variety of options all pointing in different strategic directions (good discipline, horde, elite, fight, shoot, avoid, impact) with no constraints will inevitably have to be nerfed until all the options are mediocre/poor, in order to limit the dominance of the uber-list that does everything, resulting in a bunch of weak options, no lists that are competitive and interesting, and lots of units with no niche.

    How?


    Primal TribeBadlands TribeMountain TribeMassive Tribe
    General is a Forest Goblin or Feral OrcGeneral is a Common Orc or Common GoblinGeneral is a Cave GoblinGeneral is an Iron Orc
    + Close combat devastation
    + Forest Goblin Ambush Trix
    + Balanced combat/shooting
    + Flyers and cavalry
    + Shooting/Avoidance/Impact
    + Sneaky
    + Disciplined, at a cost
    + Elite Iron Orcs
    + Most Racial Variety
    - Lacks armour & artillery
    - Poor discipline, unruly, frenzy
    - Poor discipline
    - Lacks toys
    - Inferior to Primal in combat
    - Limited combat options
    - Poor discipline
    - Elites/IO are expensive
    - Limited toys
    - Racial options are limited

    • Mix of feral orcs and forest goblins
    • Better ward saves for feral orcs armywide
    • Army lacks armour, orcs are wild and frenzied
    • Access to better/more Gargantulas
    • Access to the GGI
    • Forest goblins have some short-ranged poisoned
      shooting, more dangerous spider cav, but lack
      access to war machines
    • Army has increased ambush capability and forest synergy if you take
      a Forest Goblin King

    • Core of Common Orcs and Common Goblins
    • Common Orcs are brutal in combat - further enhanced if you take the
      Common Orc warboss
    • The true orc horde
    • Access to the GGI
    • Access to stronger wyverns
    • Common goblins provide access to chariots and war machines.
      Sneakiness of common goblins is further enhanced if you take the Common
      Goblin King

    • Cave goblin core with some forest goblins
    • Strict limits on orcs
    • Access to common goblin war machines and Forest Goblin poisoned shooting
    • Squigs, trolls provide some combat power with heavy downsides
    • All the toys!
    • Magic, shooting and avoidance heaven
    • Hell for your opponent

    • Army can center around Iron Orcs, Orcs, Grotlings, giants
    • All races are available - this is the "escape hatch", the "Vanilla option"
    • Grotlings are in core and are better, better giants
    • Limited goblin "toy" options, mediocre shooting and cavalry
    • Army has no unruliness if you pay for enough iron orcs
    No git launchers, no splatterers, no Iron orcs, no common (mounted) 'Eadbashers,
    no stone trolls,
    common and cave goblins lack their special equipment,
    No crossborcs/arrow boys, No squigs of any variety
    No Giant
    Nothing Feral
    No Gargantulas
    Limited Iron Orcs
    Forest and Cave goblins lack their special equipment
    No squigs
    No bridge or cave trolls
    Limited Iron Orcs, No (mounted) eadbashers, Common orcs are only the shooting variety, no boarboys
    Common goblins lack their special equipment
    Limited Gargantulas
    No GGI
    No Giant
    No Orc Characters, no Wyverns
    No 'Eadbashers or Mounted 'Eadbashers at all
    All goblins lack their special equipment
    Limited squigs
    Limited Trolls
    Limited Flyers
    No Gargantulas
    No GGI
    Limited artillery




    FAQ:

    Q > I hate this!
    A: Why?

    Q > Because I want a list with no unruliness, 3 git lanuchers, 5 Gargantualas, fast stuff, mad gits, Feral 'Eadbashers... I want it all!
    A1: If you're allowed to have it all at once, it all has to be mediocre. This is actually selfish, because everyone else who wants a more limited list has to suck, and the entire army becomes competitively degenerate around one list (the "everything list"), and many options (grotlings) just end up left by the wayside. We end up being the army with many options that almost all suck.

    Q > This will be the end of mixed lists!
    A2: The 'Massive Waaargh' is for mixed lists

    Q > But the Massive Waaargh says that most of the races' best stuff won't be allowed! That sucks!
    A3: That's intentional - if you want it all at once, it all has to be subpar - see A1

    Q > OK I don't want all the OP stuff from all the races, I just want the OP stuff from one race.
    A4: Then take the Waaargh! appropriate to that race

    Q > I want a list that's just Feral Orcs and Cave Goblins! Or Iron Orcs and Forest Goblins! I don't like to be forced into your aesthetic choices! I want to be a green hipster!
    A5: You can take Feral Orcs and Cave Goblins, in fact. See the Massive Waaargh.

    Q > Yes but I want Feral orc 'Eadbashers to go smash face and all the nice Cave Goblin toys!
    A6: see A1

    Q > But if I had just one small unit of Feral orc 'Eadbashers and just a tiny contingent of squigs, that actually wouldn't be OP, but it's still banned!
    A7: Yes, but it's a very odd choice. We're aiming to cater to the major army types, not every corner case, and this is already complex.

    Q > Actually you're right, this is complex. Too complex! No one will ever understand it!
    A8: A lot of it can be implemented in the book with some simple labels: Primal, Badlands, Mountain, Massive. A lot of it would be intuitive - All the Forest Goblin and Feral Orc options would get the Primal label. A unit can have multiple labels. Sometimes a label would come with a limitation: Mountain(1 max), and another label would come unlimited - Primal.

    Q > Hey, I hate unruliness! But I want a Mountain Waaargh!
    A9: Unruliness is part of the price you are paying for the toys in that set of lists. We aim to make the toys, avoidance and shooting in the Mountain Waaargh significantly nastier than what's available in vanilla right now.

    Q > What kind of unruliness will this be?
    A10: More severe than what we have now, but this is a big, hard topic that is still to be determined. It won't include loads of randomness, though, and the Massive Waaargh will allow you to buy your way out of it fully

    Q > This is a massive nerf to our power level!
    A11: All the Waaarghs will benefit from some very juicy buffs to many statlines and special rules. We are going to be more powerful in each of the directions that these Waaarghs go - but not all at once.

    Q > This goes way beyond the level of customization in any other Ninth Age book. You're more than halfway to making four different books here.
    A12: That's true, but Orcs and Goblins have a uniquely large amount of legacy models and fluff to accommodate, as well as a huge number of fans who are emotionally attached to certain idiosyncratic units that you probably wouldn't reinvent if you were trying to make a logical army. Also, this system leaves much more of an opening for new units (Monster Cav! Collossal Squig! Etc) in an already crowded list. We beg for some leeway on this one.

    Q > Is this the final version of this proposal?
    A13: No, this is just a rough first draft, many things are still TBD.

    Q > I still hate this! You're Terrible! You're worse than Hitler!
    A14: OK, but do you hate this more or less than our current state of affairs where everything good and powerful gradually got taken away, and a lot of old underpowered stuff is ... still underpowered? Have you truly considered the core argument in A1? Are you forgetting that all this stuff can now be buffed back up to where it is actually nasty and good!

    Q > Is this an official Ninth Age Post?
    A15: No, not at all.

    Q > Can I make constructive suggestions and criticisms?
    A16: Yes! Please do! Post a reply, PM me, whatever! Collaborate!

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Warboss_R'ok ().

  • Looks cool. I could something similar implemented for the Auxiliary Army List Compendium.

    Background Team

    Rules Team

    Conceptual Design

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  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    Why? A book or codex that allows a huge variety of options all pointing in different strategic directions (good discipline, horde, elite, fight, shoot, avoid, impact) with no constraints will inevitably have to be nerfed until all the options are mediocre/poor, in order to limit the dominance of the uber-list that does everything, resulting in a bunch of weak options, no lists that are competitive and interesting, and lots of units with no niche.
    I don't agree on this.
    We can have both, voluntary limited lists and totally mixed lists to be both competitive, without introducing any strict limits. I explained several times how this can work via limited synergy.

    Edit : Short reminder

    Display Spoiler
    - Waargh Torglot - 40 Pts
    Only Common Orc General.
    Affects all 6 Greenhide Races.
    Provides +1M and Swiftstride.



    - Waargh Brazkor - 60 Pts
    Only Feral Orc General.
    Affects all 6 Greenhide Races.
    Provides Devestating Charge.



    - Waargh Mordluk - 80 Pts
    Only Iron Orc General.
    Affects all 3 Orc Greenhide Races.
    Provides Reroll To Hit.



    - Waargh Shazgrat - 30 Pts
    Only Shaman General.
    Affects all 6 Greenhide Races.
    Provides 6++ Ward Save (or +1 to existing Ward Save).



    - Waargh Gritlig - 10 Pts
    Only Common Goblin General.
    Affects all 3 Goblin Greenhide Races.
    Provides Combat Resolution +2.



    - Waargh Varnrig - 5 Pts
    Only Cave Goblin General.
    Affects all 3 Goblin Greenhide Races.
    Provides Fight in Extra Ranks +2.



    - Waargh Blatgraug - 15 Pts
    Only Forest Goblin General.
    Affects all 3 Goblin Greenhide Races.
    Provides Distracting.
    My Proposals for : O&G Religion

    The post was edited 1 time, last by arwaker ().

  • DiaLogical wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    Looks cool. I could something similar implemented for the Auxiliary Army List Compendium.
    I've no idea what that means. Searched the news section, came up empty. Care to elaborate?
    I have mentioned it a few times in discussions over the last year. It hasn't been directly announced because we are uncertain of when it will be done, but one of the planned documents is Auxiliary Army List Compendium. If you remember those alternate army lists from back of AB's in 6th ed, well something like that just supported with artwork and one or two pages of background to go alongside it.

    These armies would be weaker than the main lists found in Army Books in the same way Barrow Legion and Terracotta Army are weaker than UD, but they would be internally among themselves balanced. Thus providing people with "fluffy" (potentially skewed) lists for narrative play without upsetting tournament balance.

    Background Team

    Rules Team

    Conceptual Design

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- :BH: :DL: :DE: :DH: :EoS: :HE: :ID: :KoE: :OK: :O&G: :SA: :SE_bw: :VS: :UD_bw: :VC: :WDG:
  • arwaker wrote:

    this can work via limited synergy.
    Yes, this is an excellent idea. @arwaker you have some very good ideas, I am very impressed, and it bodes well for the future of Ninth Age!

    As to the specifics, I think it might need some tweaking, but I think something like limited synergies could be better than what I am suggesting.

    In fact I think I suggested something like this in the early days in 2015 when debating with @slivek (I was for it, he was broadly against it, but he is a very smart guy and a great debating opponent!)

    The issues that came up then, IIRC, are how it is hard to come up with rules that are simple and also tie together the units that you want them to tie together. For example, this is going to work out pretty well:

    Arwaker wrote:

    - Waargh Mordluk - 80 Pts
    Only Iron Orc General.
    Affects all 3 Orc Greenhide Races.
    Provides Reroll To Hit.


    because what it will create is orc lists want to be in combat, and being in combat makes you want to reroll CC attacks. So this will have the desired effect - orcy lists that fight like orcs, led by an Iron Orc.

    But then these:

    Arwaker wrote:

    - Waargh Varnrig - 5 Pts
    Only Cave Goblin General.
    Affects all 3 Goblin Greenhide Races.
    Provides Fight in Extra Ranks +2.

    - Waargh Blatgraug - 15 Pts
    Only Forest Goblin General.
    Affects all 3 Goblin Greenhide Races.
    Provides Distracting.



    Cave goblin general who gives all goblins FIER2? Cave goblins do not want to be in combat, their combat stats suck. A deep unit of cave goblins with some extra attacks will go up against the enemy combat units and get its face pounded. Furthermore, the units that a goblin army *should* be good in combat with - trolls and gnashers - do not benefit from this rule!

    The issue is that it can be hard to make a bonus really work in favor of the army that it is intended to work with. But I will put my thinking cap on and see whether I can rephrase the system I have in my OP in terms of bonuses.
  • I think this concept is a really cool one to use for an update. It also could be part of the regular book but updates like this are a very nice extra after everybody has got theirs.

    A book like this could easily be also combined with deeper lore, some Campaigns in said areas etc. It could also be part of the main book, I don't know how thick these are intended to be :)
  • I absolutely love this thematic approach to the OnG as you present here @Warboss_R'ok .

    It will be hard to balance due to an increased complexity - true - but if it can be successfully implemented, it will bring much more interesting games BOTH for the hardcore competitive gamer types AND for casual gamers who like the roleplaying part of the game as well.

    Imagine how much hype this could bring around the whole race, with people working hard to paint and complete their new Mountain Orcs army etc. Rules like these could influence and inspire all around the actual games. I could see myself making thematic landscapes and I'm sure others could make cool background stories evolving around the tension between these factions/tribes/bloodlines.

    I can't praise this enough! :thumbsup:
    Cheers! :)
    Orc Forum
  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    In fact I think I suggested something like this in the early days in 2015 when debating with @slivek (I was for it, he was broadly against it, but he is a very smart guy and a great debating opponent!)
    You surely know why I ws against this ;) Imho we had bigger problems back then and imho objectives for the ABC's were different than this thingy. Whether there will be space for such ideas in current development scheme is another thing ;) and where it will have a space...

    Either way - since I am writing already: good to see lots of fresh ideas sprawling in community. Thanks for brainstorming!
  • slivek wrote:

    You surely know why I ws against this
    Yeah I see to remember there were some concerns about "Lists that write themselves" and "Pre-built/designed synergies vs spontaneous synergies". I might try to find the post but then again it might be kind of hard...

    There's this thread:

    Helping the Goblins - some rough ideas

    and this one


    A proposal for fixing Animosity/Unruly and rewarding themed lists

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Warboss_R'ok ().

  • See this criticism of Ninth Age btw:

    Something like Warhammer the 9th age ?

    Redditor wrote:

    I watched in horror as T9A went from the promised 9th Edition of Warhammer, to only considering it a tournament system and killed all the imaginative and entertaining things. Because there's no room for fun or silliness in the ultra-serious world of Tabletop Tournaments...
  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    See this criticism of Ninth Age btw:

    Something like Warhammer the 9th age ?

    Redditor wrote:

    I watched in horror as T9A went from the promised 9th Edition of Warhammer, to only considering it a tournament system and killed all the imaginative and entertaining things. Because there's no room for fun or silliness in the ultra-serious world of Tabletop Tournaments...

    Just so that you know the Management is not deaf to this particular issue that has been raised more times than I can count.

    Background Team

    Rules Team

    Conceptual Design

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  • Another one:

    Some Lizardman wrote:

    9th age is a bit bland for my liking. In removing themselves from the warhammer fluff they have lost a huge part of what interested me. The armies seem to have lost a lot of what made them unique it's like when GW removed most of the magic items and gave everyone a big common list. It may have made it easier to balance and simpler to regulate but it homogenised the armies too much. Whilst there's no denying it's visually gorgeous and well managed there is not enough of a 'wow' factor to make armies stand out from each other. I feel it was made for tournaments.

    And another:

    Dakka Dakka wrote:

    On the otherhand, it's undeniable that Ninth is a game developed for competitive players. New army compositions limit skewed lists (not all skewed lists where power list offenders, ... ) ... While all of these things lead to a healthier tournament scene I can see how they'd be off putting to someone who just wants to field a 3 gargantula forest goblin army.

    So basically I think it is in the interest of the project to make some stuff that is a bit more fluffy work for O&G in particular. I was going to do a bit more thinking about how this could work actually.
  • I would prefer something in form what @arwaker presented.
    So I would go into Waaarghs: Bloodlines/Cults equivalent. Bloodlines yes, Cults no. Additional limits are against fun in my opinion.

    What if go into something like:
    Forest Goblin General = Gargantula becomes: 0-3 Units per Army and 0-2 Units per Armywhen it includes anyCharacters mountedon Gargantulas
    Cave Goblin General = +1 to Gnasher units limit

    Other way could be make these similar to vampire powers :)
    Current armies:
    WDG - Waiting for better times
    VC

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Armywide Signature Spells - Check! Maybe you could add something more? Success! We got Hereditary Spells!
  • Altao wrote:

    Bloodlines yes, Cults no. Additional limits are against fun in my opinion.
    Forest Goblin General = Gargantula becomes: 0-3 Units per Army
    But you could equally well state that as Gargantula: 0-3 per army, If you don't have a forest goblin general, 0-1 per army. Whether you phrase this in terms of a lower baseline with bonuses, or a higher baseline with limitations it boils down to the same thing: if you have the good version of X, you can't have the good versions of Y, Z and W.

    I think phrasing things in terms of bonuses is often clearer, though.
  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    But you could equally well state that as Gargantula: 0-3 per army, If you don't have a forest goblin general, 0-1 per army. Whether you phrase this in terms of a lower baseline with bonuses, or a higher baseline with limitations it boils down to the same thing: if you have the good version of X, you can't have the good versions of Y, Z and W.
    But Forest Goblin General is partially limitation as you can't take any Orc Warlord :P
    Current armies:
    WDG - Waiting for better times
    VC

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Armywide Signature Spells - Check! Maybe you could add something more? Success! We got Hereditary Spells!
  • Shlagrabak wrote:

    almost result in 4 prewritten lists, with very little room for the player to build something outside the box?
    This issue needs to be carefully investigated, for sure. This is @slivek s old issue of a "list that writes itself"

    Alexbbr wrote:

    Plase make this dream came true.
    Thanks! Well I'll do what I can!