DH: OLD-v0.8 playtesting feedback

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    • DH: OLD-v0.8 playtesting feedback

      Hi, everyone!

      This is the topic for feedback form actual games.

      Please, do not post comments to other people's reports. Comment on things in separate threads in Dwarven Holds forum.
      Dwarven Holds TAC playtesting feedback
      Please, do not post full battle reports. Try to post both positive impressions and possible problems, with ideas on solutions.
      This topic should be as clear as possible for reviews by creative teams.

      Here is what we are looking for with regards to feedback:

      Size of GameLength of Game (time).
      Player Experience LevelOpponent Experience Level
      # of Game With Current Draft# of Game with Current Draft
      If you played any modifications from Current Draft (please list)If opponent played any modifications from Current Draft (please list)
      If you felt game was 'generally balanced' (y/n)If opponent felt game was 'generally balanced' (y/n)

      Here is a description of the possible responses for "Experience Level" above. Please be honest in your assessment of your skills: there is no shame in being a casual player, and we are trying to design a game that will appeal to both Casual and Tournament players alike.

      Self-Reported ExperienceDescription
      Casual<2 years Experience. Does not participate in tournaments.
      Intermediate2-5 years Experience. Sometimes participates in tournaments.
      Expert5+ years Experience. Familiar with ETC/Swedish comps. Regularly participates in tournaments.
      Tournament5+ years Experience. Places at local tournaments. Experience in ETC or Master's-level tournaments.

      Please include a copy of both your and your opponent's list. We do not need every detail: units, their numbers, and any particularly new magic items or configurations you were testing will suffice.

      Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1
      Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2
      Choice 3Choice 3Choice 3Choice 3Choice 3
      Choice 4Choice 4Choice 4
      Choice 5Choice 5Choice 5

      Please then include a short description of the game, the outcome, and what your and your opponent's thoughts were. If you feel anything needs tuning, please leave it here. Important: A single game does not determine an item's / unit's power level. Please test multiple times, in multiple configurations before suggesting feedback that xyz needs a redesign.

    • I n reference to this battle report: 2500 Points Daemons Vs Dwarven Holds Also know as Ceren vs Telsiph

      Dwarf Player Conclusions:

      Deathseekers, great as an anvil, do very little damage. If you want to say it was just bad dice, technically instead of doing 6 total wounds they should have done 8 statistically... so my dice weren't too horrible.

      Dwarf Warmachines are very inaccurate, without spending 85 points to get an engineer to reroll my scatter, catapults are not reliable. On that note why did catapults take a 20 point increase? Organ guns without rune of accuracy just don't put out much damage either until things are in close range.

      Forge Fathers are not walking bubbles of death and destruction. They take one charge and get wiped without doing more than 2 wounds in 2 rounds of shooting/stand and shoot.

      Veterans being ws4 means blight flies hit them on 3s. wound on 3s. Ouch. Great weapons and they don't have any save vs that. Wiped before they took a swing.

      Magic defense is low, very low. I should not have to bring 160 points of runic smiths and a 40 point banner to hit +4 dispel. I know other races spend more than that for a level 4, but they also get spells that are worthwhile. Vortexes still being able to be cast in battle is crazy to me.

      The new lord is better. Str 6 6 attacks on the charge. Just nasty.

      Ideas on how to tweak the Dwarves based upon this battle:
      1) Anvil costs too much and is too vulnerable, because it is a warmachine even though 6 blight drones would not fit on it all 6 got to fight it because of the way the rules for close combat against warmachines is written :

      BRB pg 40 wrote:

      When fighting a warmachine in combat do not allocate attacks as normal. Instead, at the start of the round of combat, choose up to 6models that are not in base contact with other enemies. These models can attack the War Machine as if they werein base contact, but no other attack can be directed at it nor can the War Machine attack models outside thechosen party

      2) Deathseekers do not do enough damage. Mine worked well as an anvil because I brought 30 of them, but in 4 rounds of close combat they did a total of 6 wounds. They only lasted 4 rounds before being wiped up.

      3) Veterans are too exposed with a WS of 4 and Heavy Armor. I paid 14 points per model to never get to swing with them.

      4) Dwarf magic defense is at an all time low. Costs of Runes should be reviewed, MR banner runes are needed for troops, as well as a way to upgrade the "wizard level" of a runic smith on the cheap. Or a Runelord option as a lord choice, comparably stats to a lord, but a lvl 4 wizard.

      5) Forge Fathers feel like they are in a good spot as do Organ guns.

      6) Catapults should be reduced in cost, as they are now weaker and require much more expensive upgrades to reach their old effectiveness level. 100+85 points for naked engineer.

      7) Cannons need a cost reduction. Dwarven cannons are currently more expensive than Empire cannons with a shorter range.

      8) We need a troop choice in Rare. Right now we just have too many things in special. Maybe an option to bring more veterans as ambushers/scouts, but they are in Rare. Or this Kingsguard Idea that has been floating around which is basically just the Chaos Dwarf Hellish Elite. +1 str magic weapons, a shield, bodyguard and a dwarf statline.

      9) We need something to counter large target single models and fast moving cav. That used to be the organ gun and cannons jobs, but it would take a minimum of 2 direct hits from a cannon to kill a Greater Daemon and that is a very unlikely situation with the current stat of artillery.

      10) Vortexes into combat... still insane. Maybe change it from a template to 3d6 hits or something.

      Thoughts on the Daemons list:
      They still play like Daemons. His list was fast moving and nasty and not optimized(just like mine).
      Blood Cannon should not be 170 points, considering a misfire kills it just as dead and cannons are pretty crappy now.
      Greater Daemon seems overpriced(gasp).
      Screamers need a point reduction.
      New Mark of Pestilence is... interesting. Not sure why it helps them while they are swinging on me.
    • In reference to 2500 points close combat dwarves vs empire

      Dwarf Player Conclusions: Honorguard with shields are in a very sweet spot at the moment. I feel like if you brought 2 blocks of them it would be a problem. I think it would be worth testing this idea: move to rare, given an upgrade choice of +3 for enchant hammers or some nonsense and renamed Kingsguard.

      Honorguard with GW are a bit too expensive, drop the upgrade cost of switching from shields to GW and it will be much more appropriate.

      After witnessing the mortar, maybe switch the catapult to a 3 inch plate that is strength 4 all around with a 30 point upgrade to make them armor piercing. Drop price of catapult to 80 points.

      Copter bomber is relatively useless feeling. Needs something.

      Copter Burners, remove default flame thrower, drop price to 50, add 20 point upgrade to change to flame thrower, default weapon is a machine with 2-3 shots.

      Copter Squadron Idea, min 3 copters, max 6, 50 per copter, maintains same statline, some kind of bonus for charging, gives a mobile flank harasser that is good for more than war machine hunting.

      After playing with Veterans ambushing I would never put Warriors in that role, they are too weak with base str 3 and ws4. What I did only worked because they were str 4 with shields.

      Shieldwall should work against missiles(not templates) fired from the front arc of the unit, kind of like a phalanx effect... maybe make this a special rule called Phalanx that applies only to the kingsguard.

      My only complain in this game is how easy it was for a force with 2 cav units to completely over manuever me because my mobile units can not stand up to a unit of anything. I think that dwarves need a unit that is quick for flank protection and out manuevering.

      However this game was very fun because of how much more important movement was and the fact that I was able to dispel a miscast that would have completely ruined the tactics of my pincher attack in his back lines made it feel more fair in some way.
    • In reference to 2200 points against VC.

      I think the Organ gun is till viable and not OP.

      I just love the Honour Guard with shields!

      The copters are good I think (even if they misfire and can't shoot anymore they can redirect and be annoying or deny some points).

      The lord is okey.

      We should be able to have more anti-magic because we still don't have a magic phase (the runic smith is a joke, good spells but will never be able to cast them).

      Cannons are way worse because not being able to reroll the misfire dice (which was awesome).

      The "master engineer" shouldn't cost so much or do something more, it barely helps the cannon or organ gun when they are upgraded.

      The deployment rules was really fun!
      28/1/12 - win/draw/loss with DH in 9th

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Jonas Nilsson ().

    • Legolas_28 wrote:

      (sorry for my poor English)

      Hello, i just now begin to test the dwarfs vs EoS.

      First match i winn. It's not the most important, because dice and luck times give me the match (+198). The army of darkness was: dark prince on pegasus (without ward save ??? ommg bad for my friend). 2 sorcerers lv2, One dead witch with altar of blood, 3 shadow riders, 2 Dread Reapers, one kraken, one Hydra, one Medusa, one 25 Elvish Warriors, 25 Dread Corsairs, 5 Dread Knights and one Raptor Chariot.

      I played with: one thunderers shield (16) one longbeards shield (20) one slayers (15) one Ironbreakers shield(20). 3 copters, one organ gun, one catapult and one cannon. Heroes: one lord. one runesmith, one BsB and one daemonslayer.

      My first impression is about copters. Now copter has fly (8) ????? heavy armor and no armor piercing for the flame blaster. It has no sequence bombardment ????. Im so sorry, but NOW sucks. I dont understant the change. Good for only 3 copters in army, ok, but why the nerf???

      - Artillery has stubborn???? The nerf of the cannon do it complety usseless Artillery did NOTHING all the match. Only organ gun likes good...
      - Longbeards cost too much. 2 points/model shields?? i dont understand it.
      - Slayers its a SPECIAL unit. Why they havent atributes like special units? HA4 and S3 isnt good. they needs Initiative 3 at least...

      I played with shields for the new rules... puffff Elvish warriors with 4+ amour save ommmgg.... I loosed all the closed combats, Only the general give me chance to winn one of them, thanks to the new magic of the runesmith (Faith Rune).

      Dwarfs with two hands hammers vs dwarfs with shields and new rules. Sorry, but i think we loose chance...

      My friend played bad, i think.

      New army is so worse that 8ª ed. I think we loose so much and win nothing, nothing good. And the new Army need more runes to play...
    • impressions from my (first since 8 edition) 4 games this weekend. Rules 0.64 (just missed 0.7)

      * Honour guard with shields are very good, especially with runesmith synergy for stubborn and spells. (Maybe too good?)
      * deathseekers with swift stride and vanguard = love it. i used units of 5 and they had uses in every game as either wm hunters or redirections.
      * organ gun feels rightly balanced.
      * drakerakers also surprised me. I thought they would deal more destruction (unit of 10), but they also seemed like they were rightly balanced.
      * honour guard with gw are also good. That extra point of armour (compared to hammers) really makes a difference.
      * 3x marching is the best thing ever. All my opponents really liked it, because that meant they didn't have to face a gun line, because the dwarves could actually get to them, and in good positions too!

      Dwarves still misses something (other than countercharge) that can free you up from a terrible combat. If you get stuck in a pillow fight ( shields vs shield) there is no coming out of it.
      Maybe a spell/banner/ something that can give +1 str/attack/etc for a round.
    • In reference to Testing 0.7 first battle

      I brought little shooting at this made it hard for me to get in combat. Since I could not "force" him into close combat I gave him the possibilty to move slowly and get into good positions. The 3x march at the first rounds are ideal to line up directors and flanks.

      We decided that the Lords could only attack each others, since we are asked to focus on units.
      WS5 shield veterans with throwing axes are expensive, but omg. This is the most flexible tool in our toolbox. This is our version of the Swiss Army Knife. When either stubborn or reroll armor support this unit it becomes a verd hard unit. I got almost all charge in the front (I offered my rear to the small 3 knight unit and I didnt even feel their lances). I almost feel that this WS5 is too much. Havent tried Great-trans, yet...
      But as far as I can tell - we are above decent in close cobat.

      "sadly" I got the dream combo when I charged shield guards and great guards in the same unit. This should kill every unit in the game, so that is what happened. I must admit the the Holy banner was very important.

      Magic: I got to cast what he wanted me to cast. With +5 he dominated magic phases, untill his wizard bxxxh blew up. The anvil, lord and scribe combo was enough to dispell most. I devourved his Throne of whines in round two and dispelled his regrowth with scroll and dice. He let him have the toughness spell when I was about to charge with both guard units (T5 would only be fair, I thought).
      After his wizard died he failed to dispell due to unlucky rolling.

      His trebuckets target my Great guard unit most of the time. Three direct hit and two misfires (may not shoot next turn) among.

      gurial wrote:

      can we have a death spell called "LeWel jokes"? they are killing me indeed...
    • In reference to Testing 0.7 second battle (against VC).

      Forge fathers really kept that silly bat far away from me. This was vital for my game. The bat was useless untill the fathers saw combat.
      Vanguarding seekers are very good. I'll spend 50 points on these rather then 80 on a copter.

      The lack of anvil made my casting very hard. I could only target two units and had no second chance to cast important spells. I only used devouring, and this kept the necromancer from casting Invocation before he had to.

      Close combat: Parry and shieldwall combo is great. However with all machines in rare I can see some nasty castle formations with core shooters or throwers, special stubborn guards and two ballistas, volley gunx2, thrower and cannon :P I spend no points in rare, since i wanted to test infantery.

      gurial wrote:

      can we have a death spell called "LeWel jokes"? they are killing me indeed...
    • Battle report 0.7 Beta DH vs WW

      We both build unit-heavy 2.400 lists,

      • 1 chosen lord, buffed like mad (8 attacks or something)
      • 1 chosen champion, bsb, buffed, frenzy banner (I think)
      • L2 chosen mage (upgrade from L1 and familiar)
      • 40 barbarians, shield, fc
      • 10 mounted barbarians, shields, lances, a mark (+1S in first round)
      • 5 wasteborn knights, warpblessed weapon, a mark (nurgle)
      • 20 wasteborn warriors, halberds, shields, mark (?), fc, host of his mage
      • 20 favored, halbers, mark (+1S first round), fc, host of his lord and bsb
      • 4 dragon centaurs, shield, halberd

      • King, bearers, 3 x shielding, destruction, fury, might - 295
      • Smith, shield, devouring, iron - 127
      • smith, shield, disrupting, iron (illegal, in hindsight) - 127
      • 18 gun shooters, gw, scouts, fc, 282
      • 24 veterans, shields, throwingweapons, fc, host of one smith - 342
      • 12 deathseekers - 120
      • 18 forge fathers, banner of speed, full command - 315
      • 26 honorguard, shield, fc, host of the king and one smith - 394
      • 1 volley gun, blessed - 140
      • 1 cannon, engineering, 120
      Deployment and start (see picture below)
      • We deployed terrain. What a relief after "you know what edition"
      • We rolled for scenario's and rolled battle line (we excluded the flanking one). We skipped objectives.
      • He (WotW) chose the "open side"
      • Rolled for first deployment.
        • He won dumped his barbarian horde in the open space.
        • I positioned my vet's in front of them, to set a bait.
        • He kept his knights, favoured and dragon centaurs in his pocket, deploying his light cav and warrios first.
        • Since I put my veterans down, he knew he had to face them with something meaningfull. His put his warriors next to his barbarians, opposite of my veterans. And he placed his light cav left of his barbarians.
        • I place the the volley gun and cannon to the right of my vet's. I knew his strong stuff had to be deployed on the other side, so I placed my drakes (march 12") left of the veterans, and I went all out with my honorguards, seekers, anvil. I knew I had vanguard on the seekers, and scouting shooters.
        • I gained a +2 for first turn. The set-up was beautiful. Placed the shooters opposite of his dragon centaurs. 18 S4 shots per round on the dragon centaurs, so he had to charge them or run off.
        • Vanguarded the seekers up in as a sharp speedbump for my honorguards. See picture below.
        • I rolled a 4 and won first turn
        • He rolled pit of shades (ouch), mindrazor and switched another for shadow miasma

      Turn 1 DH (photo's will shift angle now, see below)
      • Moved up my honorguards behind the seekers, marched up my forge father to get them in range, but held a line-of-sight with volley gun
      • Cannon shot a knight, the shooter shot 3 wounds off a dragon centaur, the volley gun shot two chosen
      • Got rerollable armour saves off on honorguards

      Turn 1 WW (photo below)
      • His knights charged the seekers, who lost four and did no wounds in return. His barbarian cav, his barbarian horde and his warriors moved up. His favoured moved behind his warriors (this turned out to be a bad call). His dragons centaurs move away from the the shooters to back up his knights.
      • He casts pit of shades on my veterans, it goes off good. I chose to devour it, so it would hurt once and then I wouldn't have to be bothered anymore. It scatter but only 2", covering 11 veterans, killing 8. I stick due to the smiths leadership 10.
      • Cannon shot a knight, the shooter shot 3 wounds off a dragon centaur, the volley gun shot two chosen
      • Got rerollable armour saves off on honorguards

      Turn 2 DH (photo below)
      • Moved up my veterans slightly, so they can be charged by his barbarians and warriors, but barely. Honorguards can't move. Shooters stay so they can shoot without modifiers. I will try to move them with the anvil later.
      • Seekers loose 5 and 3 remain, killing none of the knights (not on photo).
      • I try to magically fly the shooters closer to the dragons, so they can charge what's left after the shooting. It get's dispelled. I get rerollable AS off on the honorguards.
      • The forge fathers and volley gun splatter 8 warriors, he makes his test due to the influence of his lord and bsb in the favoured behind them. The cannon and shooter peel 6 wounds of the dragon centaurs, leaving 2 models. marched up my forge father to get them in range, but held a line-of-sight with volley gun

      Turn 2 WW (photo below)
      • His knights kill the seekers and stand there (in front of my hero bunker). His warriors fail the charge on my forge fathers. His dragon centaurs move forward and are now behind his knights (really? yes. really). His barbarian cav charge my cannon and make it.
      • He casts some stuff and I use a dispel scroll. He gets mindrazor of on his barbarians (they autowound, but saves allowed at AP1).
      • His cav kills two canon crew.

      Turn 3 DH (photo below)
      • My veterans charge his barbarians and make it, they kill 8 and loose 3. My honorguards charge his knights, kill them, over-run into the dragon centaurs, and kill them (impact hits and rerollable armour saves help - ahum), and reform to face warriors and favoured. They lose two bodies in the process. My shooters march up full speed, to help the main force.
      • I get stubborn off on the veterans and rerollable armour saves on the veterans, he dispels a magical move attempt to move the honorguards to the flank of the favored.
      • The forge fathers and volley gun vaporise the warriors (his mage jumped to the favoured due to steed of shadow)

      Turn 3 WW (photo below)
      • His favoured flank my veterans, who lose (only) 7 bodies fighting his hero-bunker and barbarian horde, and they stick because stubborn. His barbarian cav kill two forge fathers, who kill one barbarian. They lose combat but hold and reform to face them.
      • He casts some stuff and I dispell some, he get's mindrazor off or something, it doesn't help him.

      Turn 4 DH (photo below)
      • I expect his favoured and horde to win battle and come after me. Because I'm fine sacrificing my forge fathers. I march my hononguards sideway and let the shooters march up next to them, so I'm ready to face danger from the front.
      • I get off stubborn on the veterans and shooters
      • Believe it or not, but my veterans only lose 5 bodies and stick due to stubborn (smith and banner left), My forge fathers beat his cav (killing 3) and hold and reform, facing the favoured.

      Turn 4 WW (photo below)
      • His cav reforms
      • He casts miasma on my drakes, who now have BS3 (huh ;) )
      • His favoured destroy my last veteran and smith and turn around

      Turn 5 DH (photo below)
      • My shooters move up (so they can still shoot). I don't charge.
      • My forge fathers, volley gun and shooters clean up 11 chosen. He sticks.

      Turn 5 WW (photo below)
      • His favoured charge my forge father (only thing within reach) and lose all except his lord. His cav charge my volley gun and make it.
      • We end the game, please read on below
      Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!
    • Points summary
      • DH had left: the honorguard unit with lord and smith, a unit of forge fathers, an anvil, a volley gun and a unit of shooters - 1.550-ish points
      • WotW had left: a horde of barbarians, a lord and a unit of light cav left (those have been probably killed without a significant loss in turn 6) - 600-ish points
      Thoughts - general rules Beta
      • I LOVE the new deployments rules (that influences who starts the game) - it is so refined and adds to the game's strategic and fun level. Awesome. Also, it is a MAJOR benefit for the new dwarven list (vanguard, scout's and the importance of being first so you can soften up the enemy with artillery). Thus it is also a tip for dwarf players to not get tricked.
      • I love the new terrain deployment rules. It works. It makes sense. it's just that good.
      • I love the new steadfast rules. It works well.
      Thoughts - meta and WW

      • This game is not representative of what WW can actually do. We based it on unit's caus that's what has been asked. If WW fields flying lords, more powerful mages, the cannon and a few monsters, dwarfs get the fight they deserve ;). On a serious note: this WW list is far from competitive. The DH list was pretty competitive as far as I know at this moment. Please keep that in mind.
      • WW is still powerfull but more balanced. They now rely on magic, the cannon and flying monsters more then before.
      Thoughts - dwarven holds
      • Forge fathers are an undeniable problem for "tough" lists. Anything that charges them get's a major pounding, and will be mopped up after. If they try to avoid them, it's successful zone control for the dwarven player. Always, I repeat always put them in the centre of your line. Give him a warmachine, seekers or copter to kill at the flank, but never mis-use forge fathers as flank guard. They are not flank guards, they are the biggest problem of our enemies.
      • Scouting gunners are a blessing. Just wait till all is done and then annoy the shit out of your enemy by placing them so they can start peeling off wounds of your enemy's key unit's. And give them great weapons to be a dangerous charging unit.
      • Honor guards, plate mail, shields, stunty and grumpy and parry (distracted) and possible rerollable armour saves. Need I say more? Should be an 0-1 unit without doubt.
      • All DH army's will probably feature two smiths and an anvil, to dispel spells and buff troops. It works. But it's an auto-include now. Transfer some goodies to the Guild Masters, and thing will balance out.
      • The combination of veterans with throwing weapons, scouting troops, vanguarding seekers, volley guns, forge fathers, nail hard infantry and copters is very much fun to play with. It is also very powerful. the reason: the new holy trinity:
        • Each turn a DH list is not engaged, it will kill your models
        • You can not dance around the list, since zones are controlled and you will get hurt
        • You have to move in, you will be hurt while doing so, and if you break through, you either bounce off an anvil or be impact-charged the turn after
      • I do not believe in great weapons anymore, since we just have better options, like smith and shields, [lexicon]forge fathers[/lexicon] and 2A honorguards.
      • Not a moment where I thought "hey, I would like an [lexicon]engineer[/lexicon]". No reason for them anymore. We can actually play fantasy battles now
      • Did not miss copters. We do not need them for charge redirection anymore. We cause bigger problems now and have more zone-control.
      Hope you enjoyed, and please remember, the WW could have been more more powerful. The rules team asked for unit versus unit battles. Thus results say squat about meta power levels.


      Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Pellegrim ().

    • Pellegrim wrote:

      1. right now we are asked to playtest Beta and field unit's mainly

      Simply, play some games with armies designed to "break the game". We have a heavy focus on units atm, but we also intend that he game will eventually lend itself to be more unit-centric instead of the character-centric of the last years
    • Allright, here is my feedback after playing 5 games in Swedens first ever Ninth Age tournament. (Also my first 5 games of ninth age)

      General comments army special rule.-

      Relentless. Yes, just yes. Finally Dwarfs that actually move about the battlefield without a ton of magic tricks. Dwarfs can now handle scenarios that requires capturing objectives in the opponents half of the table.

      Stunty and Grump. Ok, did not have any units with shields so couldn't test impact hits.

      Grudgebearer Nice buff with out being overpowered. So much better than the old, did nothing 66% of the time, was broke 33% of the time abillity.

      Shieldwall. Did not get to test this as no shield using units.

      Runic Smith. Nice bound spells but felt a bit me and hard to get spells off if I rolled high on winds of magic, 2xrune smiths could not use up all the dice and opponent have enough dispel dice to stop everything that mattered. Add some buff perhaps. (re roll to hit?)

      Rune anvil. Did not use this but I must comment. I really do not like the 24" range, this short range makes it only really useful for defensive lists as aggressive list will move units out of range. Also abilities feels a bit meh for 150p. Some offensive ability like the old rune of wrath and ruin is needed.


      I used might, destruction, shielding, courage. All felt ok, Really miss a rune that allows character to join ambushers though.

      Comments on the units I used.

      Dwarf King . With 2 runes of might and 1 rune of destruction, finally a lord combat lord that did not suffer from the 8:th book problem of just sucking in some matchups. With the 8:th book a lord would always suck against at least one of ogres, woc and elves which was not fun when building tournament lists.

      Runic smith. Ok, no comments. Well working character.

      Dwarf Warriors. Ran them with great weapons, ambush and throwing weapons. Throwing weapons made them a joy to use. Finally an ambusher that actually can do something when it comes on the board. Really like this unit

      Dwarf Shooter with X-bow, great weapons and scout. Really liked this unit as well. The ranges I missed from the 7:th edition book finally are back. '

      Forge Fathers. Tried a unit of 14 and they just kept on failing me. Problem is that their stats are not good enough for 15p models once the enter combat and with 18" range they will get charged. They really need an elite state line. I suggest giving them WS 5 and S4. As I was this unit never really did anything important before getting charged and killed. Will most probably not take them again (unless perhaps in a gun line). EDIT: Oh I think I see my problem, I was to stuck in 8:th edition and missed that Forge Fathers have BS 4 now, I played them as BS 3. (At least I made up for it by, in at least one important combat, playing them as WS 5 S4 due to hangover). At BS 4 they probably are a bit better but I still think they are a little to weak in combat. On the other hand now I understand why it works to keep them behind other units, BS4 means the -1 for soft cover means a lot less).

      Honour Guard with great weapons.
      4+ save makes these so much better as they are now much more resistant to small arms and magic missile shooting- The difference between 5+ and 4+ is huge. Like this unit a lot.

      Flame thrower looked broken on paper but actually did not do nearly as much damage as expected. Unit is well worth 70p though. Fourth wound really makes a difference

      2D6 s4 auto hits just by moving over a unit felt broken. But this is probably due to 8:th edition Dwarfs having huge problems with killing the last few survivors of units which was a major problem with the army. I guess the steam bomber is all right and really fills a major hole in the army list.

      Open Field Machine Cannon.
      Even though heavily nerfed the cannon felt ok for it's points. Also finally the out come of a game is not decided by how well my War machines roll on the first two turns.

      The Games

      Game one, first game of ninth age. Faced elves of light. Not really much to write about, dice were wild and no one could pass a leadership test meaning lots of high ld units fleeing of the board.

      Game two. Ogres with big gut star and woolly mammoths. Both players decided to go for the blunt tactic of running forward and hoping for the best. A huge melee in the middle of the board which I ended up winning proving that the Dwarfs now have the punch to go to to toe with other close combat armies. Game was close to the very end and could have gone either way until the gut star failed a critical break test.

      Game three. Ogres again. Again a huge melee, this time on my opponents deployment zone on the left flank Game was decided when my S6 multiple wound D3 King and his unit of great weapon honour guard failed to do 4 wounds on a woolly mammoth. Army again felt fine but a really unlikely combat round did me in.

      Game four. Shooty shooty elves of nature. This one would have been over before it started if it had been an eight edition game. Now it was tense for the first two-three turns before a miserable shooting phase and some bad ld checks made the elven army collapse. Dwarf really have a fighting chance against elves on nature now instead of this match up just being one huge pain.

      Game five. Cavalry heavy elves of light with dragon.
      This was the toughest match of the tournament. Scenario meant I had to take the fight to him, in hindsight I should have ignored the scenario and just played for a minor loss. Now He got of the charges and the new improved dragon princes really hurt. S4 is much more than S3.
      New lore of life also hurt, he a lv4 and I could not stop enough of the magic so models just kept coming back. This was the only match were I felt that magic perhaps was just a little to powerfull but perhaps the problem is that dwarf anti magic is a to weak. Against a lv 4 just having two runic smiths and a scroll just was not enough.

      The post was edited 5 times, last by Hoffa ().

    • I had a great match against ogres again.
      I used two daemonseekers in a unit of 20 seekers. One of them had +1S, +1A and +1 to hit, while the other had +1S and Breath Weapon.

      I vanguarded them up and they were charged by a Ogre tribesmen who failed their charge, but then they were shot at by 8 Ogre shooters with 41 shot. 18 hit which resulted in 8 dead seekers.
      So I got to charge and I went for a unit of 8 GW ogres with a BSB. I made the charge - needed 8 - and had to face his BSB in a challenge. I went for the +1 to S,A and hit -seeker and killed the BSB with 5 overkills. I also killed 3 ogres and wounded a fourth. I lost 3 more seekers and two wounds on the breather daemonseeker. Ogres broke and I pursued into a cannon which died in the next combat phase (GW ogres ran all the way home).
      I reformed and made ready for a Woolly Mammoth charge. The woolly mammoth cause all within 6" to strike at I0 so he killed 7 seekers with impact hit, attacks and stomps before my daemonseekers killed it. I reformed and could charge at the tribesmen which had managed to break my veterans, but reformed instead of pursueing (he had a horned something to take care of veterans). I charged with my daemonseeker only and issued a challenge. I killed his champion, challenged again- he moved his wizard back - and proceeded to kill 2 ogres (5 wound and one was wounded)! The next round his wizard could not hide so I killed that also and caught his fleeing tribesmen.

      Daemonseekers with I5 in a game were noone strikes first is nasty. d3 wounds is certain death for ogres. My ~600 pts of seekers destroyed 22 (8shooters, 8 GW and 6 tribesmen) ogres, a mammoth and two characters. I lost some points since my 20 man unit was severly hurt, but both my daemonseekers survived). MVP - The Seekers

      I used this list (basic runes on the smiths, and reroll as + ward BSB)
      Daemonseekers (2), Smiths (2), BSB, 35 vets, 20 seekers, 25 hammerers, a bomber, an anvil and 10 scouts. The game ended with a minor victory for me, but I was amazed of how efficient seekers are :)

      gurial wrote:

      can we have a death spell called "LeWel jokes"? they are killing me indeed...
    • Size of Game: 2500 Points
      Length of Games: 2:30 games
      Player Experience: Phil Karl, USA Master's Player, GT Dwarf Winner (Bruenor Bronzehammer on the Dwarven Forums)
      # of Games: 5 (Tournament)
      If you felt the game was balanced: Moderately
      If opponent felt the game was balanced: Not Against dwarves

      Dwarf King: 2 Runes of Might, Rune of Destruction, 3x Runes of Warding, Shield, Palaquin
      BSB: Rune of iron, Rune of Warding x 2, Rune of Might, Rune of Fury, Shield
      Runesmith: Rune of Iron, Shield, Spelleater
      Runesmith: Great weapon, Spellbreaker
      Enginneer, naked
      33 Vets with GW, full command
      26 Honour Guard, Full Command
      18 Quarrellers, GW, Musician and Standard
      2 Bolt Throwers w/ upgrade
      2 Cannons with Eng. Upgrade
      1 Organ Gun, Naked
      2 Steam Copters

      First off let me start by saying we played this with the 7.0 rules. I feel that I should post this because almost nothing has changed to much with the coming of the 8.0 ruleset, and that this data would still be valuable to some people. I am a fairly competitive player and have a vast amount of experience playing dwarves:

      Game 1: Tomb Kings (Experienced GT Player)

      This was my first game of Ninth Age, and It plays very similarly to eight (which made me happy). I played a wonderful gent who was quite amicable, and he was happy to walk through the rules me me as we played (we were both experience GT Players, so we knew the basics). He was running an ushabi list with a couple of other big nasties, including a king that did d3 +1 wounds.

      We played through the game and I noticed that I was marching towards him. That triple march allowed my to be very aggressive. My quarrellers dealt with the majority of his chaff, along with help from my cannons, which kept his monsters in check. My organ gun died on turn one, but that was the only banishment he would get to cast that day. Eventually his chaff ran down my guns, but by that time my dwarves were starting to see combat. The Vets were amazing at just plain hitting stuff, and their great weapons punched through everything until the skelly bus, which was one hell of a grind. The honor guard made it into the ushabi, and with the king leading the way they were obliterated. Due to senarios I got an extra 300 points for having my general near the center of the board, and my vets were stubborn thanks to the runesmiths spells and my quarrellers negating their ranks after a while (boy were they handy). I won the game (with the 300 bonus points) as a 14 - 6 (it was done in 200 point incraments, so without it I was probably only up by 500 points). It was a pretty intense game all things considered, and if I was smart I would hav started to beat on his lord with my gret ewapon dwarves (as he did not have parry!!!)

      Game 2: Tomb Kings (Experienced GT Player)

      This game was night and day from the other. I played someone who was very cagy, and a brilliant player. I tried to move on the march but he was smart and plucked points where he could get them. He used a combination of sand and death paths to make my life hell, and basically shot a majority of my troops off the board. I was left with very little by the end of the game and all things considered I played it very poorly. I was just so hppy to march around the board. My artillery was fairly ineffective this game as he used the terrain to his advantage and kept healing the wounds off his models, and without cannons doing d6 wounds I couldn't kill some things fast enough. This time the 14 - 6 went to the tomb king player.

      Game 3: Empire (Moderately Skilled Player)

      This was a tough match up for me. And this is going to be my example of why honor guard are broken. But that will be a summary for later. I deployed and he deployed on the other side of the board, so again I would have to march to fight him. As I was marching, he started sending his demis in to attack my war machines. My quarrellers died valiantly, but could not hold against the chickens (and holy hell those chickens hurt!!! Made a great roll). My longbeards, who would have to support the honor guard, went back to deal with them (and deal with them they did, they wiped them out.

      Now here is where things get dumb. and I mean really dumb. I had my cannons reduce his tank down to one wound. So my honor guard, with the king cleared it up. I knew that I was going to get flanked by one of his buses, and decided that if I was I should get flanked by the swordsmen cause they couldn't put out as much hurt as his halbrediers. There were 7 rounds of combat, and at the end of it, his halbredier unit was wiped and my honor guard still had two men remaining. Granted, the king was in there making quick work of his general, wizards, and anyone else he could touch. But the thing that killed him the most was he forgot a magic phase. That was when the king struck his general down.

      In the end he got the three hundred bonus points from the scenario and I did not, so I still ended up winning with a 14 - 6 (before bonus points I was much farther ahead of him, should have been a 16 - 4).

      Game 4: Beastmen (Experienced GT Player)

      He his in a corner and we had a chaff war. Things swung slightly in my favor when his wizard turned into a hydra, miscast, panicked his unit, and ran off the table. I shot off some minor chaff and that got me the 11 - 9 win. Was a damn short game lol

      Game 5: Game 5 Ogres (Moderately Skilled Player)

      Easily the best game of the weekend and was a real nail biter. My artillery didn't work for crap lol. He had duel ogre cannons that put me marching off real fast. I tried my best to shoot off his cannons but damn sure couldn't do it. Then, I started to shoot other things, and they worked exceptionally well. 3 wounds on his mamoth, a single shot wiped out a unit of mournfang (well killed 3 and sent the other one scampering off the board), which allowed my combat dwarves to roll in and end his unit.

      This game I finally remembered that the grudgebearer rule form my king would hit his ogres with parry, and damn that hurt. Having them do that was brutal, and the king is well worth it just for that rule. My King and the honro guard took the brunt pf some iron guts and didn't flinch. They stood tall and fought well. I must say that they survived a remarkable number of things.I ended up killing the ast majority of his army (he had about 6 models left on the table) for a 16 - 4 victory

      Overall: 3rd place (out of 14)

      Unit Summary:

      King: Worth every point, was a brutal character and tough as nails. Made his points back. He is exactly worth the 303 points I spent on him. Fairly balanced and no one seemed to have a problem with him.
      Rating: A+

      BSB: Again very well worth the points. Tough and fairly costed for what he did
      Rating: A

      Runesmiths: Bound spells are great. They really add a nice flavor to the army. Pretty fair for what they did. Also were fairly good at keeping magic under control
      Rating: A

      Eng: Overpriced for an organ gun/cannon booster. Did very little overall
      Rating: C

      Vets: Were a great hammer. They hurt like hell when I needed them to and were strong as hell all things considered
      Rating: B+

      Shooters: Fuffilled their role as chaff clearers and flankers:
      Rating: B

      Bolt Throwers: Cheap and decent for what they did. I expected more fliers and will probably take an organ gun next time instead
      Rating: C

      Organ Gun: Decent, mine rolled like garbage or drew an insane amount of fire.
      Ratng: B

      Cannons: Still very accurate and might need some tweaking in the main rules.
      Rating: A

      Honour Guard: Straight up, these guys need a nerf. They can walk into anything and deal with anybody. They are broken and one of two things needs to change:

      1) Parry gets removed in its current incarnation or the honor guard somehow lose it. If that happens then they will be good, but not over powered.
      2) Lower their armor save. Combined with parry it's just too much

      I honestly think that the honor guard would not be too bad without parry. And honestly I feel that the dwarf book is a bit overpowered at the moment. Don't get me wrong I love the little guys but there were a couple of things that made the book stand out as very powerful (two dwarves were in the top three and a chaos dwarf came in 3rd)

      1) Field control. Just because we can march doesn't mean we have to. The range we have is devastating to most things. I think we would be easier to deal with of the range of all artillery got lowered. The biggest problem we have is duel organ guns. I watched someone tear through the life and limb of everything with his guns. At a 30 inch range it is VERY hard for people to deal with

      2) Elite infantry. Shield wall is good. It has a nice fluff and power balance. Shield wall with parry is stupid. Again, honour guard can walk into anything and just shake it off. Our combat is very strong thanks to parry, and after talking to a lot of people we all agreed that parry just slowed the game down a lot. We were fine with talking about a 6+ ward save. But WS 5 troops shouldn't have parry as it make them a (usually) impenetrable tar pit.

      Hope you can use this data for the dwarves. My final 2c is either parry needs to change or something in our rules do to make dwarves more balanced.
      My Randomly Updated Blog: Kazandu's Painting Blog: A place to post all of my crap so people can ignore it

      "I have many who would call me friend and many more who would call me foe. The only difference is if you beside me or stand in front of my hammer!" - Dwarven Proverb
    • I tried a slayer list :P

      Dragon seeker with Fire 95pt (I made the price of Fire 35)
      Dragon seeker with Fire 95pt
      Dragon seeker with Immolation 85pt
      Dragon seeker with Helga 105pt
      Smith with Devouring, Iron, shield 117pt
      Smith with Dispel, shield 107pt

      35 Veteran scouts Hw/sh/Throw, FC (smith) 625pt
      10 Slayers skirmish and champion 120pt (fire dragon seeker)
      20 Slayers, champion 210 (three dragon seekers)
      2 Copters
      20 Forge Fathers, FC
      28 Honor Guards GW, FC (smith)

      Opponent tried Beastmen
      Beastlord General
      Shaman lvl4 Beast (0,2, 4, 5 I ate wildform in round two)
      Shaman lvl2 Shadow (2, 4)
      2 Hordes of Wildhorns with banner (movement and another I cant remembe0. The one with movement was put on table. The other was in ambush)
      10 smallhorn ambushers
      5 dogs
      2x6 minotaurs
      A blood beast
      Three Chariots
      I dont remember equipment.

      His magic was good throughout the game. 11-6, 10-5 and that sort of rolls while I rolled 5PD as my most. I had two channels in the game and I really missed the anvil.
      The seekers with skirmish was killed by a chariot charge. He got two chariots in on a 18" charge. The last chariot needed 16 and rolled snakes.
      The other seeker unit killed of a unit of minos in two combat rounds and then was locked in combat with a longhorn unit for a long time. They all died in the end, but they crippled the unit severly.
      Before the combat I moved the immolation seeker away and got of Immolation once on the ambushers. That, combined with copters and forge fathers destroyed the unit. Thanks for pointing out that attribute, squigkikka.

      After a weak combat round in turn four my vets broke and was caught, while my Honor Guards tried to charge through a ruin and paniced when they started stumbling. They paniced and by the time I rallied them they were too far away to do anything. They killed a blood beast before they died. I hate ruins!! My forge fathers were alone, and we called the game after round 4.
      All in all the dice determined the outcome. His magic phases were good, mine were very weak. He allways got one augment on a unit and I feared the withering, so I made a few bad choices in hindsight. His miscasts caused a few wounds, but never anything bad. His units hit and wounded above average, while I rolled "2"s all over (including in the ruin). Also he got the early charges and that helped him to control the game since he hid behind combat making my Forge Fathers hit on 5s and 6s.

      But seeker spam with fire is a blast :P I'd swap a Fire for Immolation rune to make everyone flamable. I had to try something like this before the Rule of Pride makes its comeback.

      gurial wrote:

      can we have a death spell called "LeWel jokes"? they are killing me indeed...