Free Command Group

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    • I don't like this, and that's not because I am "anti-change", but rather because the aspect of tinkering with your points gets reduced a lot.
      Sometimes you just don't have enough points for an FCG unit, or you simply don't want to have let's say a champion in your unit because he doesn't do anything useful for you e.g:

      20x Goblins (bows) the Champion's +1 attack won't matter because he can only make 1 shot with a bow, so why waste 20 points on a champion if you don't intend do go into Close Combat or charge anybody ever ?
    • basilevs27 wrote:

      I don't like this, and that's not because I am "anti-change", but rather because the aspect of tinkering with your points gets reduced a lot.
      Sometimes you just don't have enough points for an FCG unit, or you simply don't want to have let's say a champion in your unit because he doesn't do anything useful for you e.g:

      20x Goblins (bows) the Champion's +1 attack won't matter because he can only make 1 shot with a bow, so why waste 20 points on a champion if you don't intend do go into Close Combat or charge anybody ever ?
      Champions are good for challenging. When that chaos Lord charges into your goblins, you Can Challenge which means that the unit survives a little longer assuming you Can pass your steadfast test. Similarly if you are charging in alongside your wyvern general, the goblin Can take the Challenge and the wyvern Can eat the unit.
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    • Odoamar wrote:

      I have idea to make command group as free choice.

      Reasons:
      *easier to remember for new players
      *easier to balance
      Why is it easier for new players to remember?
      Why is it easier to balance?

      I'm not saying free command is a bad idea I'm just struggling to justify why it's worth doing.
      Especially if it means some units aren't allowed command anymore, surely that makes it harder for new players since they now have to remember which units don't have it?

      I'm assuming this is also for players who simply refuse to play with WYSIWYG, and as such haven't got models that would allow them to show the unit has command options. Since if you do have the models and play WYSIWYG then you can immediately tell at a glance.

      Also champions shouldn't be allowed to declare challenges.
    • Odoamar wrote:

      I have idea to make command group as free choice.

      Reasons:
      *easier to remember for new players
      *easier to balance

      Some units can lose access to some commad
      We have scoring rule then we can create some units without only champion or with only musican without other types.
      But banners need revard if units is removed from game like before.
      So what you are actually proposing is taking out the option of choosing for a command group. As some units aren't allowed command, so all that will happen is that units that do have will become 30 points more expensive for the first X.

      There are always circumstances where one of the command group is useless for a unit, in it's given format. Why buy a champion and a standard bearer for a ranged support unit? They don't add anything that is useful.

      And what do skirmishers gain from a musician?

      Henrypmiller wrote:

      Champions are good for challenging. When that chaos Lord charges into your goblins, you Can Challenge which means that the unit survives a little longer assuming you Can pass your steadfast test. Similarly if you are charging in alongside your wyvern general, the goblin Can take the Challenge and the wyvern Can eat the unit.
      Yes champions are good for challenging, however a ranged support unit is already dead if it's in combat - you are better off spending those 10 points elsewhere.

      In your steadfast example - goblins are LD6? -1 for fear so testing on LD5. Even with steadfast you are in trouble.

      As to combo charging with goblins and your wyvern, you are better off leaving the squishy goblins out of that fight. They will give up a lot of Combat Resolution.

      I think that the current system isn't a problem, I just thing that you need to rethink how it actually works. In my head:
      • All units have a champion (leader) but by paying extra you get a good champion to lead the unit, rather than some random bloke / lass.
      • All units have a banner to rally around, but by paying for a standard bearer you buy an impressive / fearsome banner that inspires your troops to fight better and therefore gain +1 CR.
      • Musicains are only applicable to trained troops. The KoE Peasant Levy shouldn't be allowed musicians because they don't have the training to swift reform.

      Odoamar wrote:

      bannners are important because promote MSU but it should gain revard for enemy if you catch it.

      Now banners stack.
      You already get 10 bonus points for the standard for wiping out the unit!

      I didn't like the last stand idea in 8th because, although it is fluffy and represented what sometimes (not always) happened in reality, it meant having to replace front rank models which was annoying. And did you ever have your BSB's unit break? Very annoying!

      This rule also discouraged me from taking banners on MSU style armies. I never dared to give a banner to a 5 man Knights errant unit in 8th ed because the unit was worth 100pts + 16 for the banner and if they broke from combat with a banner the enemy goy 166 victory points. It isn't worth the risk.

      theunwantedbeing wrote:

      I'm not saying free command is a bad idea I'm just struggling to justify why it's worth doing.
      Especially if it means some units aren't allowed command anymore, surely that makes it harder for new players since they now have to remember which units don't have it?
      +1. Additionally, I feel that we have lost too many options on our units so would not be in favour of removing more.
      Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    • Henrypmiller wrote:

      basilevs27 wrote:

      I don't like this, and that's not because I am "anti-change", but rather because the aspect of tinkering with your points gets reduced a lot.
      Sometimes you just don't have enough points for an FCG unit, or you simply don't want to have let's say a champion in your unit because he doesn't do anything useful for you e.g:

      20x Goblins (bows) the Champion's +1 attack won't matter because he can only make 1 shot with a bow, so why waste 20 points on a champion if you don't intend do go into Close Combat or charge anybody ever ?
      Champions are good for challenging. When that chaos Lord charges into your goblins, you Can Challenge which means that the unit survives a little longer assuming you Can pass your steadfast test. Similarly if you are charging in alongside your wyvern general, the goblin Can take the Challenge and the wyvern Can eat the unit.
      Why should a unit that was meant for ranged supporting attacks be more expensive than it has to be? A Chaos Lord will demolish the unit fast enough that it breaks after 1 phase anyways, due to the Overkill rule, so your point is irrelevant. Secondly, taking OPTIONS away from an established player for the sake of helping out a new player in this case is not even justified, understanding what a command group does and it's benefits is not that difficult and is part of the fun when you're learning the rules.
    • It's not a loss of options if the command group is free. It's just one more thing you don't have to spend points on.

      Command group is frankly super expensive. And yet you arguably can't even have a unit without an officer ('champion') and standard. (Irregulars might not have a standard, but should have lower discipline, and they still need an officer). The musician might be arguable, although also generally required to function. That the game let's us pick and choose these as if they were 'optional' is bizarre.
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

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    • Squirrelloid wrote:

      It's not a loss of options if the command group is free. It's just one more thing you don't have to spend points on.
      It was also suggested that some units wouldn't have access to command. So if it is truly free (and not just added into the base cost) then some units will be more points effective than they are currently. This will cause a shift in the current balance of units.

      Squirrelloid wrote:

      Command group is frankly super expensive. And yet you arguably can't even have a unit without an officer ('champion') and standard. (Irregulars might not have a standard, but should have lower discipline, and they still need an officer). The musician might be arguable, although also generally required to function. That the game let's us pick and choose these as if they were 'optional' is bizarre.
      I think that the key word here is "arguably" which implies that your statement is arguably not the case.

      As I mentioned before - Yes they would have an officer, but he doesn't have to be any better than a normal member of the unit. A champion adds an extra attack (amongst other things) and so is an elite officer, if you like, rather than a "normal" officer.

      As you point out a unit wouldn't always have a standard. Regular troops did not always fight under their standards either in ambushes or last stands and instances with detachments. If the entire unit was split up the colours would usually stay with the unit commander. Skirmishers wouldn't have carried a standard either.

      Units wouldn't always have had musicians. Musicians required drill training to make any real difference in battle. A true peasant levy wouldn't be able to swift reform if you had 10,000 musicians because they just don't have the required discipline or training to do so.

      So I don't agree that this is "bizarre." In fact it is bizarre that a peasant levy unit can reform swiftly regardless of whether they have a musician or not.

      Having said this - if it is truly free and not added to the base cost, I'd have less of an issue with this. But then you guys will be complaining that swarms, warbeasts and similar units have a standard bearer which will look a bit daft.

      And what about monsters? Is one model the standard, champion and musician all rolled into one? Ignoring that this doesn't make sense: If so will they become more expensive as they currently don't have access to these rules.

      Basically, I don't think you guys have actually thought through how to logistically apply this change without shifting balance. I suspect that your answer is to increase the base cost of the unit which I am not ok with. This is essentially a stealth tax on units and will really hurt MSU builds.
      Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    • theunwantedbeing wrote:

      Odoamar wrote:

      I have idea to make command group as free choice.

      Reasons:
      *easier to remember for new players
      *easier to balance
      Why is it easier for new players to remember?Why is it easier to balance?
      1. I had situation when I played against player who have 3 the same units except one don't have musican because he don't have points for it.
      In my area it is common situation to skip some command group models. Also sometimes we don't use WYSWIG.

      We can apply musicians to units like we do with scoring. For me it can be easier than now, when I have to ask my opponent about Command Group or check his list.

      Then we will have:
      Ranked units with musican and scoring - standard units
      Ranked units without musican but with scoring - dedicated for main army units but with low mobility like Driads
      Ranked units with musicans but without scoring - good combat units and good mobility like Dwarf Slayers
      Ranked units without all of above - masters of Close Combat - TreeKins with upgrade.

      * it is my imagination how we can balance some units.



      2. Current Command Group balance is far away from perfect. ( goblin champion vs chosen champion ) or ( musican on light troop unit VS musican on ranked unit )

      In my opinion we have to add musican pernamently ( some units gain it for free, some for points like now, but it can be less than standard 20pts )

      Champions can stay as option but not every one can have option for it. Then change Ordering Charge rule to common for every not single model units.
      Additionally every champion should have different cost depend by efficiency.
    • I can't agree that it'll be easier for new players to remember.
      A new player will need to check their list to know what has what, in anycase it's good practice for the many many players who refuse to play WYSIWYG so it doesn't matter what the rule is regarding who can have what.

      In terms of re-costing the command on a per unit basis dependant upon how useful it is, sure.
      But that's not making it free for everyone or having it be automatically included in all units and there's no benefit to making certain options into forced upgrades.

      It just restricts options.
      Sure command groups are something you don't want to have to do without, but if a player wants to take the risk of not having them...why shouldn't they be allowed to?

      Also champions shouldn't be allowed to challenge. :P
    • theunwantedbeing wrote:

      Sure command groups are something you don't want to have to do without, but if a player wants to take the risk of not having them...why shouldn't they be allowed to?
      I think this is important here. Each part of the command group adds extra security against certain threats.
      • Standard adds CR and now stacks.
      • Champion protects against dragon characters and impact hits (rightly or wrongly). Personally I'd make champions able to accept challenges but not issue them and add something else, like +1 LD.
      • Musicians protect the unit from being outflanked.
      If I want to go command-less then I should be allowed to do that - just like you can choose to go without a BSB.

      As for not playing WYSIWYG, just put the command group members you haven't paid for in the 2nd or 3rd rank. This way it still looks like there are standards etc, but it's clear which unit has the extra rules and which don't.
      Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.