DL: OLD-v0.8 playtesting feedback

    • DL: OLD-v0.8 playtesting feedback

      Here is what we are looking for with regards to feedback:

      Size of GameLength of Game (time).
      Player Experience LevelOpponent Experience Level
      # of Game With Current Draft# of Game with Current Draft
      If you played any modifications from Current Draft (please list)If opponent played any modifications from Current Draft (please list)
      If you felt game was 'generally balanced' (y/n)If opponent felt game was 'generally balanced' (y/n)

      Here is a description of the possible responses for "Experience Level" above. Please be honest in your assessment of your skills: there is no shame in being a casual player, and we are trying to design a game that will appeal to both Casual and Tournament players alike.

      Self-Reported ExperienceDescription
      Casual<2 years Experience. Does not participate in tournaments.
      Intermediate2-5 years Experience. Sometimes participates in tournaments.
      Expert5+ years Experience. Familiar with ETC/Swedish comps. Regularly participates in tournaments.
      Tournament5+ years Experience. Places at local tournaments. Experience in ETC or Master's-level tournaments.

      Please include a copy of both your and your opponent's list. We do not need every detail: units, their numbers, and any particularly new magic items or configurations you were testing will suffice.

      Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1Choice 1
      Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2Choice 2
      Choice 3Choice 3Choice 3Choice 3Choice 3
      Choice 4Choice 4Choice 4
      Choice 5Choice 5Choice 5

      Please then include a short description of the game, the outcome, and what your and your opponent's thoughts were. If you feel anything needs tuning, please leave it here. Important: A single game does not determine an item's / unit's power level. Please test multiple times, in multiple configurations before suggesting feedback that xyz needs a redesign.

      I played a game of 2500 points Daemons of Pestilence vs Beast Herd. The game was a bit of a fail seeing as my friend didn't realise that a character wall doesn't work anymore which completely broke his mino bus.

      Anyways a few things to comment about the game.

      • Overall the game played very smoothly. I didn't have to check the new rules as often as I thought I would which was very nice.
      • Mark of Pestilence is very weak. -1 WS is pretty worthless. Most of the times it only boosted my offence which has very little effect for a defensive unit. If you could stack it by combo charging a unit it would be slightly better (and a lot more tactical) but I really hope you go back to -1 to hit or reroll 6's for ranged and melee attacks.
      • Pestilence can really stack Toxic Breath Attacks which might be a bit to strong. For example in my game I had 2 harbingers and 1 greater daemon of pestilence. All 3 had defaulted their enchanted gift to a breath attack. 2 of them had defaulted to the staff of pestilence which is a bound spell breath of corruption and the greater daemon also had the normal spell breath of corruption. In total I had 3 one use breath attacks and 3 breath attacks I could cast each turn from spells. With the lore attribute cast on the unit your fighting the toxic attacks from the breath weapon can be pretty devastating. I combocharged my greater daemon and one unit of plaguebearers with a herald in combat. In the magic phase I could do 2 breathweapon attacks on his unit and then later in close combat I could do another 2 breath attacks plus all the normal attacks. So in total 8d6 str3 hits that hit on a 4+ because of the infectioncounter with armour piercing(6). On average that would mean 14 wounds just from the breath attacks in the magic phase and close combat phase which he can only save by wardsave or regeneration. Ofcourse getting acces to all those breath attacks cost me quite a bit in characters but still.
      • We wondered if you can get immunity to Fog of Corruptions effect. T3 against greater daemon T7 means 6's to wound then +1 to wound from the mark of pestilence would make that a 7. Does that mean he cant get hit by the Fog or are 6's still always a wound?
    • I cannot understand that in a project where he thinks about how to balance they take units that nobody was using and less at competitive level because there were the worst option due to the castrated big one (that of 8th) and instead of promoting them to balance, to give to him opicones to be jugables like the others, to look that there are a competitive option (as with the teachers of the sword or the big swordsmiths, or the fragelantes, or executioners, etc.....) since not, the opposite is done with them and one returns them to geld. I speak for example about the Desangradores and Juguer (castrated cousins of the chaos), which with the new regulation lose straight the rule fear and the lethal blow stops being lethal. They do not have option to improve anything not either with equipment, or magic objects, not at all that does not even occur to them, while the same regulation gives to its rivals new options and progress of all kinds as the new Stop or the attacks holy and some others more than descompensaran very much the combats against demons since they will crash less and will save less without any compensation. I between other armies, have demons and particularly I am a romantic one that only plays list of Khorne although everybody thinks that it is not competitive. Good since till now I competed against all the armies, some better and others worse but in this one 9th I do not see against who I am going to be able to compete, to today straight the lists monkey have killed khorne and the Demons in general are right now the bretonia of 8th, playing with a regulation done for all less for them.
    • I have organised a 9th Age meet up today and observed two DL games, one against EoL and the other against BH. Horror shooting was quite effective at the current cost of the models, the volume of shots coming from a 12 model unit is equivalent to the volume provided by same number of core repeater crossbows at the same accurarcy if both units are moving.

      Background Team

      Conceptual Design

      Rules Advisors

      THE THRONG OF NEVAZ RIG - ARMY BLOG; ZAGREB GT 2018 - 3rd & 4th February - Singles Tournament
    • Online translators are awesome.

      I don't think Wrath is too bad now. The Daemon weapon is pretty amazing in the hands of anything that can take it, and juggers do some good damage with +1 str. Killing Blow isn't as good as it was, but I don't know that I would have ever relied on it anyways.

      Played against VC

      Strigoi Lord w/ Ghoul Horde, lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2s with Death, 3 units of zombies, 10 Ghoul Monstrousities, 2 Vargbeasts, the Regen Coach, and a bunch of wolves.

      My list was same as posted, except I switched to Shadow lore on my lvl 3 after thinking it over.

      I was pretty worried about getting sniped to death, but in the end, the Harbinger ended up making a lot of his regen tests, and the 2 DPs ate their way through the zombies, necros, and coach, while purple sun and pit of shades killed the monstrousities. Ghouls got into it with Harbinger and Bearers, who had the -1S/T on them but still made a crap ton of regen saves, while the Harbinger got a couple lucky wounds through on the Vampire and killed him. Ended up wiping out the VC by the 5th turn and only lost the Fiends and a unit of Furies.

      Take away:

      Horrors did more damage with their magic than shooting...3 rounds of shooting killed a single dire wolf, and the unit passed their T test. I took them for the magic so not really disappointed, but then again I am, can't really rely on them to do anything with it, so why waste the time, that amount of dice rolling was kinda clunky and tedious for no effect.

      Harbinger on Palanquin is probably too good. Maybe drop to 3W, or increase the price. He probably shouldn't be tougher than a Vampire Lord.

      Tag team Daemon Princes were great. This was an ideal game for them though, lots of units that can't flee their charge, so we'll see against other armies.
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • Size of Game - 2400pts
      Length of Game (time). - approx. 2 1/2 hours
      Player Experience Level - 10+ yrs
      Opponent Experience Level - 10+ yrs
      # of Game With Current Draft - 4
      opponents # of Game with Current Draft - 3
      If you played any modifications from Current Draft (please list) - none
      If opponent played any modifications from Current Draft (please list) - none
      If you felt game was 'generally balanced' (y/n) - yes
      If opponent felt game was 'generally balanced' (y/n) - yes

      My list was as posted in the army list section.
      His list was : Prince on ancient dragon w/ ignore first hit, 4++ on first wound, holy attacks, Lvl 4 Archmage w/ Alchemy, Lvl 1 Mage w/ Shadow, BSB on Steed, 2x 5 Heavy Cav, 34 HA Seaguard, 9 KotDR w/ World Banner, 3x Bolt Throwers


      Shadow magic continues to be awesome on Prince. Got 0, 1, and 4 this time, the -BS great for use on seaguard, the terrain spell gave me peace of mind from shooting, the -T kinda helped with dragon killing. Death was also useful at drawing dispel dice, the magic missile is scary against elven cav. Didn't have much to fear from alchemy except for the Wrath prince.

      Bolt Throwers didn't do much, seaguard could have been nasty, did 2 wounds to prince with only 8 shots, but that was probably lucky. They never got a chance to do a full volley fire. Horrors shot every turn, didn't do a single wound. Maybe they just don't like me, statistically they should have done at least a wound to seaguard the first two turns. Lash prince killed a half dozen seaguard, then wiped out the heavy cav unit near them (4 unsaved wounds) which panicked the seaguard and mages off the board turn 3.

      Dragon and kotdr crushed pestilence bearers, but took 3 rounds of combat, and most of the knights were killed. dragon killed harbinger in first round of combat, barely...needed breath weapon to do it. After that, lust prince shooting dropped the 4++ on dragon and his hit ignore, meaning the dragon then had to be very scared of wrath prince. Next turn screamers managed 2 wounds on the dragon, one from blades, one from mark (seems like dragon is a little weak vs S4+ hits?) Turn 5 Lust prince finished off dragon with Lash and Wrath prince killed BSB.


      Horrors hate me. I feel like I'm wasting my time rolling the shots, but maybe my opponent will be more afraid of the number of dice than the number of casualties. Mark of Change is nice now, feels like I can count on it to do something.

      Dragon seemed a little vulnerable to lots of low S attacks. Not so much against single shots. World Dragon isn't nearly as good now.

      Otherwise everything working pretty much as intended. Seemed pretty balanced, though admittedly I got lucky panicking the seaguard without having to fight them.
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • Game 3 - Rematch vs. Elves of Light

      Dwarf plans fell through, so played a rematch from last week. He had his list updated for the new draft, and I tried using the draft previews for Daemons as much as I could.

      His List:

      Prince on Dragon w/ Ancient Dragon upgrade, Gemstone Amulet, Divine Icon, Lucky Shield, Great Weapon
      Archmage w/ Level 4, Lore of Alchemy, Talisman of Supreme Shielding
      Captain w/ Dragonforge Armor, Shield, Lance, Barded Horse, BSB, Sprout of Rebirth
      Mage w/ Lvl 1, Lore of Shadow, Dispel Scroll
      5 Heavy Cav w/ Shields
      5 Heavy Cav w/ Shields
      34 Spears w/ Seaguard upgrade, Full Command
      3x Bolt Throwers w/ upgrade
      9 Knights of the Dragon Realm w/ Full Command
      2 Eagles w/ Reflexes


      Prince w/ Mark of Wrath, Daemon Weapon, Enchanted Item, Fly, Plate Armor - 385
      Prince w/ Mark of Lust, Daemon Weapon, Fly, Level 3, Lore of Shadow - 445
      Harbinger of Pestilence w/ Palanquin, Level 1, Lore of Death - 165
      10 Horrors w/ Champion, Flares of Change - 160
      31 Bringers of Pestilence w/ Champ, Standard, Distracting - 454
      3 Screamers - 120
      2 Fiends w/ AHW - 111
      3 Juggers w/ Champion - 160
      5 Furies - 70
      Daemon Engine w/ AHW - 230

      Seems like everything in his list got cheaper, and everything in mine more expensive, doh!
      His Archmage got 0, 3, 4, 6 on spells. I wasn't too worried about Alchemy, with only one model with a decent armor save. Maybe I was a bit cocky.
      My Prince got 0, 1, and 4, about the ideal spells for him. Harbinger got 1, also nice against elves.

      Setup saw most of the armies deployed on the same flanks, Dragon knights and Bringers facing off, with Juggers / Furies / Fiends to one side, and Princes / Horrors / Screamers on the other. His Dragon and a heavy cav unit faced the juggers, while the rest faced the princes etc. Bolt Throwers were on a hill in the center, and one on the flank by the juggers. Elves won the roll to go first, getting +3 for finishing deployment first.

      Turn 1 Elves: Everything moved up a bit. Rolled 3 on Magic, so not much happened. The bolt throwers on the hill missed shots at the Engine, the one on the flank did a wound to the fiends.

      Turn 1 Daemons: Moved up, Fiends raced 20" to get near the flanking BT. Princes moved up the other flank to set up counter charges if the Dragon knights and Dragon got cocky and charged into the Bringers. Rolled 9 on magic, got Orb of Blackness off with IF in front of DP to prevent a possible charge into the Daemon Engine, rolled a 6 but everything nearby passed its saves. Harbinger got lucky and got Soulblight on the DPs to further discourage shenanigans. Horrors surprisingly failed to wound anything with shooting.

      Turn 2 Elves: Dragon charges Juggers, Eagle charges Horrors. Everything else shuffles for better positions. Rolled 10 for Magic. Silver Spike goes off against Wrath Prince, does 3 wounds. Shooting phase the 2 BTs on hill both shoot at Wrath Prince, one hits and wounds, he fails his save and is dead. So long general! Engine takes a wound from Seaguard. In combat, Dragon challenges and kills Jugger champ, but only manages 3 wounds. Juggers lose 2 more wounds to Instability test. Eagle does 1 wound to Horror Champ, takes one in return and flees.

      Turn 2 Daemons: Fiends charge flank BT, Furies charge left BT on hill, Daemon Engine charges Seaguard. Everything holds / passes Terror. Screamers fly over not fleeing Eagle and kill it (we assumed new draft was D3 hits per screamer, not D3 hits total). Lust Prince flies over heavy cav to rear of Elf lines. Bringers fail their test to march (dragon too close) and shamble forward. Magic nothing happens, Shooting Prince kills 2 cav with Lash, horrors do nothing. In combat the Fiends crush one BT, Furies do 1 wound to other and it holds. Engine does 1 wound to Archmage (darn 4++), and stomps 3 Seaguard, but loses 2 wound from Instability check. Dragon wipes out Juggers and reforms to face flank of Bringers.

      Turn 3 Elves: Dragon, DPs, and unhurt Heavy Cav charge Bringers. Other Heavy Cav charges flank of Daemon Engine. Eagle flees off table. 6 for Magic, Mage tries to Miasma the Engine but I dispel it. Robes go off on Seaguard. Shooting does nothing. In combat, Furies finish off the BT. Engine takes 2 wounds, saves one keeping it alive to fight, puts 1 more wound on Archmage (darn 4++ again!) Instability pops it. In the main event, Prince and Dragon do 2 wounds, Dragon Breath does 3, Heavy Cav do 3 wounds, and DPs do 5 wounds. In return, Bringers kill 1 heavy cav, 2 DPs, and the Harbinger puts a wound on the BSB. Instability loses 9 more Bringers, for a total of 23 Dead.

      Turn 3 Daemons: Fiends charge rear of knights in combat with Bringers, Furies charge last BT. Screamers fly over Seaguard and kill 3. Magic nothing happens. Shooting the Horrors, for the first time ever, do a wound, killing a heavy cav. The Prince is still flying behind the lines, and does 6 wounds to the Seaguard with his Lash. In combat, the Fiends kill all 4 Heavy Cav, and in a remarkable change of fortune, the combined attacks of Prince, Dragon, and DPs only kill 3 Bringers. The Bringers kill 1 DP in return, and win combat by 1. Unfortunately, everything passes its break test. The Furies kill the BT and reform to face the rear of the DPs.

      Turn 4 Elves: Not much to move, Heavy cav moves towards Horrors, Seaguard move up towards Horrors. Magic Phase Robes go off on Seaguard, Final Transmutation kills 2 Horrors. In combat, Dragon and DPs kill 3 more Bringers, Harbinger kills BSB. Daemons lose by a couple, roll 11 on Instability and last 2 Bringers and Harbinger pop. DPs reform to face Fiends.

      Turn 4 Daemons: Fiends charge front of DPs, Furies charge flank (I'm optimistic after they wiped out the heavy cav) Horrors charge the other Heavy Cav. Screamers fly to front of Seaguard, kill 5. In Magic, Prince gets IF on boosted Miasma on DPs, for -2 to stats, but loses it and #1 spell to miscast. Prince Lashes 2 Seaguard. In combat, Fiends kill a single DP, DPs kill a Fiend and 1 Fury. Furies pop. Horrors break Heavy cav and pursue.

      Turn 5 Elves: Dragon fails charge vs. Daemon Prince, Seaguard charge Screamers, Heavy Cav rallies. Magic sees Robes on Seaguard again. In combat Fiend and DP both whiff, roll 11 on Instability and Fiend pops. Screamers do nothing in combat, pop with Instability.

      Turn 5 Daemons: Horrors charge rallied Heavy Cav, Daemon Prince charges rear of Seaguard. In combat, Prince kills 5 Seaguard, they fail Break test and run (under 25% now), Prince restrains so Dragon can't charge him (no room to land bc of proximity to Dragon Knights). Horror champ dies.

      Turn 6 Elves: Seaguard roll high and go off the table. Dragon and Dragon Knights move as far as possible from Prince. Horrors kill Heavy Cav in combat. (for anyone keeping track, they've now done 3x as many wounds in combat as in shooting).

      Turn 6 Daemons. Prince chases Knights, kills only 1 with shooting (3 shots). Game ends.

      So, in the End, I had my Prince and my Horrors left. He had his Dragon and Dragon Knights. Ended up a Minor Victory for the Elves. Easily could have been a draw if the Prince had rolled a higher number of shots in the last turn.

      Thoughts on balance: It was a minor win, so it can't be too bad. My opponent does feel that he's perhaps getting a little too much from the new rules. Everything typically hitting on 2's gets a little boring, though he wasn't a huge fan of rerolls either. Not having to worry about Miscasts is pretty big too. Seaguard seem a little pricey for what the rules actually give them. We think the Weapon Master rule is supposed to let them be like the old ship crew from the SoC list so you can have HW / Sh guys, but we don't think they were really a necessary addition, and definitely not worth paying for the option.

      On the Daemon side, I like the options. Horrors seem pricey for their shooting. It sucks, frankly. Its probably not going to be taken next game, as long as they have a champ the unit will still have a purpose. Fiends were a little overpriced now I think, but I like the unit a lot. I was worried about Jugger armor against Bolt Throwers, but it turns out Dragons are even scarier. I'm probably losing the armor on the Wrath Prince. It sounds nice, but it hasn't really come up that much, and I think most things that'll worry him will probably ignore armor or I can hide from.

      And in other news, after reading through the rules again last night, I realized my Daemon Prince can March and still shoot with the Lash. That opens up a world of possibilities, and makes me feel dumb for not realizing it before.
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog