Pinned DE 2.0

Wondering how the new magic phase feels like? Try it yourself! The Behind The Scenes blog gives you enough to playtest it, including spells of four paths of magic, all hereditary spells and the Dwarven runes!

  • Spazbite83 wrote:

    @noir I was shocked to hear about your 20h involvment not to have blades slightly nerfed
    , but slightly buffed.

    You think this is part of a bigger internal Problem? Maybe some People lost part of their objectivity?!

    Anyway, can you tell US about the next spoiler? maybe even a vote on what to Spoil?
    I reckon there’s definitely a conservative attitude to DE, I think it’s still the 8th Edition hangover.
    #freekillerinstinct Killer Instinct for all Dread Elves!
  • All the different possibilities when rolling 2+ to hit (rerolling) and 6+ to wound with poison:

    Display Spoiler

    1st Roll to hit2nd roll to hitRoll to woundPass?Number of rolls%PassFail
    6y10.16666666670.16666666670
    56y20.027777777780.027777777780
    55n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    54n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    53n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    52n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    51n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    46y20.027777777780.027777777780
    45n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    44n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    43n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    42n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    41n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    36y20.027777777780.027777777780
    35n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    34n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    33n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    32n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    31n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    26y20.027777777780.027777777780
    25n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    24n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    23n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    22n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    21n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    16y20.027777777780.027777777780
    156y30.004629629630.004629629630
    155n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    154n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    153n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    152n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    151n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    146y30.004629629630.004629629630
    145n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    144n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    143n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    142n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    141n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    136y30.004629629630.004629629630
    135n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    134n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    133n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    132n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    131n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    126y30.004629629630.004629629630
    125n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    124n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    123n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    122n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    121n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    11n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    Totals10.32407407410.6759259259



    All the different possibilities when rolling 4+ to hit (rerolling) and 6+ to wound with poison:
    Display Spoiler

    1st Roll to hit2nd roll to hitRoll to woundPass?Number of rolls%PassFail
    6y10.16666666670.16666666670
    56y20.027777777780.027777777780
    55n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    54n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    53n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    52n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    51n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    46y20.027777777780.027777777780
    45n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    44n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    43n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    42n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    41n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    36y20.027777777780.027777777780
    356n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    355n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    354n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    353n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    352n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    351n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    346y30.004629629630.004629629630
    345n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    344n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    343n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    342n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    341n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    33n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    32n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    31n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    26n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    256y30.004629629630.004629629630
    255n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    254n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    253n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    252n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    251n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    246y30.004629629630.004629629630
    245n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    244n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    243n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    242n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    241n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    23n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    22n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    21n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    16y20.027777777780.027777777780
    156y30.004629629630.004629629630
    155n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    154n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    153n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    152n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    151n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    146y30.004629629630.004629629630
    145n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    144n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    143n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    142n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    141n30.0046296296300.00462962963
    13n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    12n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    11n20.0277777777800.02777777778
    Totals10.30092592590.6990740741



    As you can see here, there's a 32.4% chance to wound with 2+ reroll and only a 30.1% chance to wound with a 4+ reroll.

    I'm not 100% confident on this, my numbers played funny buggers and I got mismatching figures several times, but I think this is correct.
  • Spazbite83 wrote:

    @noir I was shocked to hear about your 20h involvment not to have blades slightly nerfed
    , but slightly buffed.

    You think this is part of a bigger internal Problem? Maybe some People lost part of their objectivity?!

    Anyway, can you tell US about the next spoiler? maybe even a vote on what to Spoil?

    Nemeroth wrote:

    Spazbite83 wrote:

    @noir I was shocked to hear about your 20h involvment not to have blades slightly nerfed
    , but slightly buffed.

    You think this is part of a bigger internal Problem? Maybe some People lost part of their objectivity?!

    Anyway, can you tell US about the next spoiler? maybe even a vote on what to Spoil?
    I reckon there’s definitely a conservative attitude to DE, I think it’s still the 8th Edition hangover.
    No not at all I don’t think the RT or anyone in the TT meant any harm to blades of nabh. The problem was the design was already done when I came in and as I said you only get a certain amount of redesigns in a certain time. The new rules for frenzy were already applied and I think nobody really noticed the big impact it had or had the knowledge of why blades lost initiative 6 in 1.3. additionally the -2 warskill is supposed to come with frenzy (actually -1 but background driven and special rules wise it had to be -2 i can explain that some time else). So it was more like People did not see the problem.

    The time it took me was to convince the lads that we can’t keep the intended design explain why it has to change though the process was finished and because the price has always been to high and it was kind of confusing for the BLT keeping up with 3 designs to understand how they’re supposed to price it without thinking „now they got a huuuuuge buff.400 points for 10.“ I didn’t have to do that at all. I just did it to make sure it’s going to be a good end product for us.

    But almost the whole TT agreed with me in the end and I got a little back up from someone and of course from Kira.

    The BLT read my report that I wrote although they did not have to because the report I made was not part of the process. So all in all i caused a lot of extra work for others but all were understanding and friendly.

    I think i annoyed people for about 2 months or so but really no one was destructive or anything.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by noir ().

  • If Frenzy gives -2 Deffensive Skill that means models as Plague Brotherhood have Deffensive Skill 1.

    Mmm... This is so weird because Plague Patriach only lost 1 point.



    Also in the ID Preview explain that models with Frenzy lost 1 point to DS
    ID Preview - Part 3

    Ready for the news?
    Display Spoiler

    Volcanic Embrace is still Strength 4, but AP 0 - which is to say, the enemy get their full armour save.

    Frenzy has been added

    Fury has been added

    +1 OS (to 5)
    -1 DS (to 3) - Its a general guideline reduce the DS of frenzied units across all armies, but we managed to compensate it with a +1OS.

    +1 Discipline - This will be helpful with Frenzy tests, march tests...


    Mmm... I think something is wrong here ?(


    That is all
  • setrius wrote:

    If Frenzy gives -2 Deffensive Skill that means models as Plague Brotherhood have Deffensive Skill 1.

    Mmm... This is so weird because Plague Patriach only lost 1 point.

    [spoi
    [/spoiler]

    Also in the ID Preview explain that models with Frenzy lost 1 point to DS
    ID Preview - Part 3

    Ready for the news?
    Display Spoiler

    Volcanic Embrace is still Strength 4, but AP 0 - which is to say, the enemy get their full armour save.

    Frenzy has been added

    Fury has been added

    +1 OS (to 5)
    -1 DS (to 3) - Its a general guideline reduce the DS of frenzied units across all armies, but we managed to compensate it with a +1OS.

    +1 Discipline - This will be helpful with Frenzy tests, march tests...


    Mmm... I think something is wrong here ?(


    That is all
    You clearly must have overread that I stated it is actually -1 but -2 for the kinda super frenzied units.
  • noir wrote:

    setrius wrote:

    If Frenzy gives -2 Deffensive Skill that means models as Plague Brotherhood have Deffensive Skill 1.

    Mmm... This is so weird because Plague Patriach only lost 1 point.

    [spoi
    [/spoiler]

    Also in the ID Preview explain that models with Frenzy lost 1 point to DS
    ID Preview - Part 3

    Ready for the news?
    Display Spoiler

    Volcanic Embrace is still Strength 4, but AP 0 - which is to say, the enemy get their full armour save.

    Frenzy has been added

    Fury has been added

    +1 OS (to 5)
    -1 DS (to 3) - Its a general guideline reduce the DS of frenzied units across all armies, but we managed to compensate it with a +1OS.

    +1 Discipline - This will be helpful with Frenzy tests, march tests...


    Mmm... I think something is wrong here ?(


    That is all
    You clearly must have overread that I stated it is actually -1 but -2 for the kinda super frenzied units.
    We started soon with the nonsense and the Beta is not release yet 8|


    That is all
  • durion wrote:

    All the different possibilities when rolling 2+ to hit (rerolling) and 6+ to wound with poison:

    spoiler spoiler

    As you can see here, there's a 32.4% chance to wound with 2+ reroll and only a 30.1% chance to wound with a 4+ reroll.

    I'm not 100% confident on this, my numbers played funny buggers and I got mismatching figures several times, but I think this is correct.
    I didn't do any maths I just ran the number in this site with 10 attacks:

    tools.druchii.net/9th-Combat-Calculator.php



    result for 3+ to hit (the lower graph indicating the probability for a number of wounds or higher) I get 33% to wound


    for 2+ I get 32%




    I agree the difference is so minimal we shouldn't be arguing about it
    I think the problem is mostly about points
  • noir wrote:

    Nemeroth wrote:

    @noir Thankyou for doing that for us mate, I’m sure I can speak for the rest of our forum when I say it’s absolutely appreciated.

    Just out of curiosity what was the original design? If you’re at liberty to say that is!
    I did in my spoiler! :D
    Yes you did, I don’t think I read it properly! Yeah you’re right it would have been fluffy but pretty awful crunch wise. I’m looking forward to testing them out actually, two units of ten with Witchcraft or divination plus our lovely racial spell ought to be fun.
    #freekillerinstinct Killer Instinct for all Dread Elves!
  • Laurfelt wrote:

    Wow, frenzy really is a worse rule to have than I thought. Is it seen as a penalty to have Frenzy by RT??
    Idk if they see it as a penalty per se but its definitely not a benefit. It was redesigned to limit chaff rendering frenzy units impotent. Ironically I don't see frenzy units being any less susceptible to chaff than non frenzy units. Its all in perspective I guess.. if the last unit you have is frenzy its done but isn't that the case anyway?


    The forced overrun change is better vs traditional chaff which is the fix that competitive level players were looking for since chaff invalidated frenzy units rendering them unplayable [without support I'll add]. But is it actually better? Lets see:

    Frenzy units still need a dedicated support unit (or be kept at chaff cost) to clear chaff and screen. This is the same as previous just for different reasons (screening now more important, clearing chaff less).
    Before it took 2 units to exploit and then theoretically destroy an old frenzy unit. This has not changed.
    Anyway enough derail.. heres a link to a discussion and a post I wrote soon after the rule was spoiled followed by a crappy diagram a few posts below.

    2.0 frenzy


    Also fyi folks I have always liked blades of nabh and I have fielded them with success. I have also had them used against me to good effect at times so this is not about trashing on blades. And props to @noir for going the extra mile. I'm just not a fan of new frenzy thats all and I have several armies hit by it.


    Edit- and I'll add one more new anti frenzy tactic, the suicide charge. Units such as HBE lancers are ideal. Set up a flank charge with a unit sitting in the frenzy units front arc (most likely anyway). Charge with lancers lose combat and break drawing the frenzy unit forward to expose its flank. Its frenzy pulling only in reverse now.
    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE
    Undying Deathstar Construction Inc.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Stygian ().

  • What I meant is thatthe frenzy rule used to include a downside AND a bonus (extra attack). Now it's not guaranteed that you get any bonus, but you will always get the downsides (penalty to DS and forced to take tests to behave).

    So IMO the units really has to bring something else to justify me taking it in my army. If blades are fine, I have to test. My gut feeling is that I will still prefer something that doesn't die as soon as people sneeze in their direction and that I can control better.
    Commission painting needed? Visit my Facebook page: IpaintUplay
  • New

    Laurfelt wrote:

    What I meant is thatthe frenzy rule used to include a downside AND a bonus (extra attack). Now it's not guaranteed that you get any bonus, but you will always get the downsides (penalty to DS and forced to take tests to behave).
    in the context of Blades we didn't lose an attack...yes ACSs fought for that!

    Now in the larger conversation...

    The charge range you need to take a test is now M +7 and not +12 so that's tamer, along with the chance to restrain vs no chance.

    In terms of fear, panic and terror you still get the bonuses of largely being unaffected...

    Yes some lost the attack but not us...did we get a worse DS, yes we did but so what...we used to cry already when Blades died to anything that hit back anyways...so that's nothing new :)