SE 2.0 update progress

Wondering how the new magic phase feels like? Try it yourself! The Behind The Scenes blog gives you enough to playtest it, including spells of four paths of magic, all hereditary spells and the Dwarven runes!

  • While a nice idea, nobody really uses kestrels with bows right now, everyone goes for melee since bows have been such a terrible choice for them. The model- and rank-issue would and will remain until the Kestrels re-gain skirmishers with shields, no matter if it's actually a buff for the unit.
    Moreover, I consider that the Seven Sins should be destroyed as an army background.
  • funkyfellow wrote:

    DJwoodelf wrote:

    So Skirmishers may draw Line of Sight in any direction while Shoot Charge Reaction is still limited to the Front Arc and a Charge allows only a single up to 90° wheel.

    All in all, there were the following three options to choose from:
    1. Keep the Skirmish rule
    2. Remove the Skirmish rule and add Hard Target instead
    3. Remove the Skirmish rule

    As everybody kind of ignored the possible option 3. (possibly because it just was no real option), we just discussed about having either Skirmish or Hard Target.

    Keeping Skirmish would make them be able to
    a. shoot in every direction (360°)
    b. charge an enemy unit which is not in the front arc as long as the unit doesnt need to wheel more than 90°

    Removing Skirmish and adding Hard Target would make them be able to
    a. block line of sight = having a screening function (which skirmishers don't do anymore), while this would also work against friendly units
    b. have a smaller Boundary Rectangle
    c. increase the possibility to do more attacks to the front


    Discussing the pro's and con's up and down, we came to the conclusion that none of the options would be straight superior to the other one.
    Instead, we took as basis that keeping Skirmish would be better for a shooting unit while swapping it for Hard Target would be better for a close combat unit.
    The best argument for what we finally decided upon was:
    No matter how the shooting will change, Kestrel Knights won't be taken primarily for their shooting, because they are too expensive for 3-5 shots.
    Just out of curiosity @DJWoodelf , during the design process did anyone propose giving the Heath Rider treatment for Kestrel Knights?
    I.E.
    Kestrel Knights with shields rank up and gain hard target,light troops and Vanguard
    Kestrel Knights with bows retained skirmishers?

    This would of allowed for a bit of variety, grandfathered in those of us with un-rankable Kestrel Knights models, and gave the needed buff for CC Kestrel Knights in one swoop (pun intended :) )
    That's a GREAT idea IMHO. We have few units so that design space should be available...

    Any chance we could aim for this after open testing @DJWoodelf?
  • To review and expand upon one of the great ideas mentioned earlier

    -Why not just add 1 movement to the Forest Guardian kindred? I understand withholding vanguard, but +1 advance will make all the difference for guys who like to bring big blocks of rangers deployed normally. It will have zero potential for abuse.

    I also like the idea for two different forms of kestrel knights


    You could do it similar to dryads. Just add a line under the current form that says "gains skirmish, loses hard target".
  • New

    Not to sound overly negative, I think you guys did a fine job with the tools you were given and I am excited to try out my favorite unit and character in 2.0, but there is a few little, tinsy, nagging things that popped out at me when read the wild hunter update today.


    DJwoodelf wrote:

    Concerning the split of Frenzy into several special rules, there was no long discussion to get to an agreement that besides keeping the Frenzy rule, the Wild Huntsmen should also have Battle Focus and Fearless.
    The rules team really threw curve ball at you guys with the frenzy change, I do not envy having to think of ways to both satisfy the fluff and make Wild Huntsmen work with this new rule. Frenzy is so iconic for the unit but mechanically now is the antithesis of the units intended role. Was a conditional activation explored for the Wild Huntsmen? Such as:

    Call of the Hunt: The first time this unit declares a charge it gains the Frenzy & Fury special rules for the rest of the game.


    DJwoodelf wrote:

    Concerning the removal of +1AT for Frenzy and instead having the Battle Focus rule, we decided not only to go this was but to give the Wild Huntsmen an offensive buff on top. Battle Focus is slightly worse than having +1AT in most cases. So we decided that Wild Huntsmen will not only have Battle Focus but also have their Attacks characteristics increased from 1AT to 2 AT.
    Concerning a possible reduction of the DS, we stick to the recommendation to reduce it by 2.
    Before deciding this, we also had a discussion about keeping DS5 but instead to remove their light armour to give an appropriate defense nerf. As in fact most existing models don't wear any armour except for a helmet, this would have been fluffy. But in the end, this approach didn't find a majority because it would just make the unit too weakly protected especially against shooting and magic. So the DS will be reduced from 5 to 3, which means that enemies with OS 4 or 5 or 7+ will hit them better....if still being alive to attack back.
    Great call on not taking armour away from the unit! :thumbsup: That would have had a very large negative impact on the unit. Thematically frenzy units having lower DS makes total sense and I like it, alot really. But DS3 Elite elven cavalry seems really weird. A possible solution could have been going with:

    OS6 DS4

    There is the important difference of 2 between OS and DS, those of us clamoring for OF6 on one of our most elite units gets it, and all that would have been done is increasing WS by 1 offensively and decreasing it by 1 defensively, fair trade in my eyes.


    DJwoodelf wrote:

    Concerning the changes of Paired Weapons, we can proudly present that we managed to get a huge buff, a lot of us have been waiting for a long time.
    Although Paired Weapons are just an option, we decided to implement the +1 Agility of the former weapon option into the characteristics of the Wild Huntsmen. So here it is, our second unit with Agility 6, besides Blade Dancers.
    Agility 7 on the charge!!!
    And now you get something on top: You know that we reduced the OS of Pathfinders from 5 to 4 because of the changes to Paired Weapons.
    So now you think, we did the same with the Wild Huntsmen? Of course......
    NOOOOT!!!
    As Sylvan Blades are just an option and Wild Huntsmen should be good offensive-wise, we kept OS5, so that with Sylvan Blades they will have OS6 besides Ignoring Parry.


    After all these changes had been decided, we suddenly realized that we forgot something.
    "What about our Elven Deers? Shall they still be crazy frenzy?"
    So we had a discussion about if the deers would also be involved in the "preparation" rituals, if the mount and the rider would make a spiritual merger (like in the movie Avatar) or if they would just get a magic mushrooms drink before riding into battle.
    In the end, there were two arguments that made the decision.
    Firstly, nothing in the background implies that they adopt the angry mood of their riders..which by the way could also be dangerous for the rider himself.
    Secondly, the riders already got huge offensive buffs in an originally free redesign slot. So it was decided to remove those special rules from the mounts. A deer is a deer is a deer.....
    Agility 6: Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!! This was a much much needed increase, this alone probably saves the unit and makes it a solid all comers pick, great job!! :thumbsup:

    The OS4/OS5/OS6 part has been talked about before, I still find it weird how base stats are limited by equipment choices.

    The lose of the attack on the deer is disappointing but fury turns the net average into a slight damage buff, not that the wild huntsmen were lacking for damage already.

    DJwoodelf wrote:

    Transferring the changes of the Wild Huntsmen to the Wild Hunter was a rather easy task.
    The Task Team needed exactly four posts to clarify this. Very effective working!
    I feel this may have led to a bit of a missed opportunity actually, a possible direction the discussion could have taken is how to both deal with the frenzy issue on an expensive character and how to encourage placing him in his fluffy unit instead of the Briar Maidens. The discussion could have possibly led to something like this:

    Master of the Hunt: A character with the Wild Hunter Kindred does not suffer the -2 Discipline for frenzy tests, this bonus is conferred to any unit of Wild Huntsmen it has joined.

    Could have killed a couple of birds with one stone their.

    Overall I am excited to try things out come 2.0, thanks for the preview and all the work!

    Cheers! :D
  • New

    funkyfellow wrote:

    The rules team really threw curve ball at you guys with the frenzy change, I do not envy having to think of ways to both satisfy the fluff and makeWild Huntsmen work with this new rule. Frenzy is so iconic for the unit but mechanically now is the antithesis of the units intended role. Was a conditional activation explored for the Wild Huntsmen? Such as:
    <br style="background-color: rgb(252, 253, 254);">Call of the Hunt: The first time this unit declares a charge it gains the Frenzy & Fury special rules for the rest of the game.




    ... [snipped to take away quote wall]....


    DJwoodelf wrote:

    Transferring the changes of the Wild Huntsmen to the Wild Hunter was a rather easy task.
    The Task Team needed exactly four posts to clarify this. Very effective working!
    I feel this may have led to a bit of a missed opportunity actually, a possible direction the discussion could have taken is how to both deal with the frenzy issue on an expensive character and how to encourage placing him in his fluffy unit instead of the Briar Maidens. The discussion could have possibly led to something like this:
    Master of the Hunt: A character with the Wild Hunter Kindred does not suffer the -2 Discipline for frenzy tests, this bonus is conferred to any unit of Wild Huntsmen it has joined.

    Could have killed a couple of birds with one stone their.

    Overall I am excited to try things out come 2.0, thanks for the preview and all the work!

    Cheers! :D
    I like these ideas too. I think it's important to realize the complexity of the design situation though. The TT are playing in several dimensions. For example, great ideas like some of these could suddenly become weights on our necks just by being poorly priced which is out of their control. For example aMaster of the Hunt rule could be great or it could really weigh down a WH character if BT decided it should be costed the same as taking frenzy off all WH models on the board. If WH are priced well as they are without the exception, that could end up better. Our ACS took a generally safe, fluff sound strategy with a few things, and given the past history that seems sensible. Then we can build more creatively fluffy special stuff on that foundation going forward.

    It's a actually great that we get to feed back on this stuff and help shape it over time, rather than the old top down approach. Lets make the most of it!

    With that in mind what about a magic item (partially so it could be priced separately) for the new book that combines some of these ideas:

    The Horn of The Wild Hunt: A character deployed with this item disables Frenzy and Fury on all friendly models. The model must sound the horn the first time they declare a charge, immediately re-enabling Frenzy and Fury on all friendly models that possess them for the rest of the game, and granting Swiftstride to all friendly models that subsequently charge in the the same movement phase. Units that are granted Swiftstride from this rule only lose it at the end of the current movement phase.

    The idea being that the hunt doesn't start until the horn sounds (and it draws all the SE into it for a few wild moments). I think that would make you more likely to want put your WH Lord in with your WH (or at least not encourage you not to), and play into our movement and first turn damage strengths in a way that makes us want to engage not avoid. More likely to get charges off seems to be right on the button for that IMHO.

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Hachiman Taro ().

  • New

    Hachiman Taro wrote:

    I like these ideas too. I think it's important to realize the complexity of the design situation though. The TT are playing in several dimensions. For example, great ideas like some of these could suddenly become weights on our necks just by being poorly priced which is out of their control. For example aMaster of the Hunt rule could be great or it could really weigh down a WH character if BT decided it should be costed the same as taking frenzy off all WH models on the board. If WH are priced well as they are without the exception, that could end up better. Our ACS took a generally safe, fluff sound strategy with a few things, and given the past history that seems sensible. Then we can build more creatively fluffy special stuff on that foundation going forward.
    I totally agree with this, for me the points I mentioned in the the previous post were the minor things that popped out at me, but like you said its important to keep in mind points costs, internal balance, and FOC restrictions which have yet to be revealed but also to look at it through the lens of the BT, which is why I mentioned my consideration for what our guys have to work with. I was merely tossing out a few thoughts that crossed my mind as I read and figured it would be more productive to share than to hold on to them all to myself ;) .


    Hachiman Taro wrote:

    It's a actually great that we get to feed back on this stuff and help shape it over time, rather than the old top down approach. Lets make the most of it!
    A resounding yes to this brother! :thumbsup:


    Hachiman Taro wrote:

    The Horn of The Wild Hunt: A character deployed with this item disables Frenzy and Fury on all friendly models. Themodel must sound the horn the first time they declare a charge, immediately re-enabling Frenzy and Fury on all friendly models that possess them for the rest of the game, and granting Swiftstride to all friendly models that subsequently charge in the the same movement phase. Units that are granted Swiftstride from this rule only lose it at the end of the current movement phase.
    I also have longed for some sort of Horn of the Hunt for SE, it is just so evocative! There are many ways the team can explore to encourage fluffy builds for characters and I look forward to all the ideas after 2.0 drops!
  • New

    Hachiman Taro wrote:

    funkyfellow wrote:

    Just out of curiosity @DJWoodelf , during the design process did anyone propose giving the Heath Rider treatment for Kestrel Knights?I.E.
    Kestrel Knights with shields rank up and gain hard target,light troops and Vanguard
    Kestrel Knights with bows retained skirmishers?

    This would of allowed for a bit of variety, grandfathered in those of us with un-rankable Kestrel Knights models, and gave the needed buff for CC Kestrel Knights in one swoop (pun intended :) )
    That's a GREAT idea IMHO. We have few units so that design space should be available...
    Any chance we could aim for this after open testing @DJWoodelf?
    A split has not really been suggested.
    It was more a discussion about either/or.

    But I added my vision of splitting kestrel knights and heath riders into two units each.
    The shooting version would have the profile and equipment of sylvan archers while the close combat version would be a mounted forest guard (for the kestrel knights it could also be a wild huntsman).

    Wasnt followed because its a full redesign topic.

    As I strictly was against any flying unit in the game not having skirmisher, I wouldnt have proposed a split treatment of the kestrel knights formation. ;)

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  • New

    funkyfellow wrote:

    ...




    I feel this may have led to a bit of a missed opportunity actually, a possible direction the discussion could have taken is how to both deal with the frenzy issue on an expensive character and how to encourage placing him in his fluffy unit instead of the Briar Maidens. The discussion could have possibly led to something like this:
    Master of the Hunt: A character with the Wild Hunter Kindred does not suffer the -2 Discipline for frenzy tests, this bonus is conferred to any unit of Wild Huntsmen it has joined.

    Could have killed a couple of birds with one stone their.

    Overall I am excited to try things out come 2.0, thanks for the preview and all the work!

    Cheers! :D
    could be a solution while possibly increasing the costs = picking the positive things from frenzy etc.

    Nevertheless, there was a problem during that time that the frenzy rule got reworked at the same time so at some steps I personally lost the overview about what frenzy will finally be.
    So I thought to keep frenzy anyway and tweak big problems (e.g. -2 to march tests) once its final.

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  • New

    Half offtopic:

    While we hesitate about having M6 for kindred, rats just buffed Vermin Daemon to OMG level. I didn't believe my eyes, that is the Rending Pony son, no less.
    pp.userapi.com/c840337/v840337584/2bb9c/WFaP2fY947A.jpg

    Ld9(practical Ld10 from rows) with Divination attribute for rats... for rats...

    Naphtha Thrower : Volley Gun Artillery Weapon with
    Range 18", Shots 2D6, Strength 5, Armour Penetration 2, Devastating Blow (D3), Flaming Attacks, Magical Attacks, Fire on the Move. This weapon never suffers from negative to-hit modifiers due to Cover or Hard Target

    My back is on fire! They simply ignore Hard Target and got range 18". And add +1 to hit from Engineer. Bye-bye, Kestrel Knights.

    The post was edited 6 times, last by Aemir ().

  • New

    Mahlzeit wrote:

    The model- and rank-issue would and will remain until the Kestrels re-gain skirmishers with shields
    placing an empty/scenic base between those models that won't rank up is not an option?

    it is not like it would have always been done that way in Warhammer with GW models that were impossible to rank up or after units changed from R&F to Skirmish or changes of the Skirmish rules
  • New

    You know, I woke up this morning on a more relaxed and calm state and decided to give this another go.

    I then proceeded to look again at the new magic lores and started looking around at the hereditary spells.

    Then I stumbled upon the fact that DL get a +1 Aegis (up to a minimum of 3+) hereditary spell which can be Aura.

    Then I came back to check our hereditary spell. Yep it is still a magical move and while it has Aegis 5+ which is nice, it does not synergize well with units that already have aegis, or doesn't work in combat.

    Now I'm angry and dissapointed again. Like... seriously?

    P.S. Don't try to tell me having the Wild Hunter prince on a Maiden unit is working as intended, please.
    P.P.S. Don't get me started on the Vermin Daemon thing... Divination attribute on rats is not too strong, but a Di 8 mage on a fleet-of-foot elven steed that is light troops is borderline OP.
  • New

    Arrahed wrote:

    Kodos der Henker wrote:

    placing an empty/scenic base between those models that won't rank up is not an option?
    I am already doing that. Even with Skirmishing I use every millimeter available:

    My Gosh that Owl. That's a pretty hard to argue point right there, I'll give you.

    Would 50mm non skirmish fix it? Or maybe option for skirmish on all Kestrels?
  • New

    Aemir wrote:

    Half offtopic:

    While we hesitate about having M6 for kindred, rats just buffed Vermin Daemon to OMG level. I didn't believe my eyes, that is the Rending Pony son, no less.
    pp.userapi.com/c840337/v840337584/2bb9c/WFaP2fY947A.jpg

    Ld9(practical Ld10 from rows) with Divination attribute for rats... for rats...

    Naphtha Thrower : Volley Gun Artillery Weapon with
    Range 18", Shots 2D6, Strength 5, Armour Penetration 2, Devastating Blow (D3), Flaming Attacks, Magical Attacks, Fire on the Move. This weapon never suffers from negative to-hit modifiers due to Cover or Hard Target

    My back is on fire! They simply ignore Hard Target and got range 18". And add +1 to hit from Engineer. Bye-bye, Kestrel Knights.
    Lol that is incredibly good. Honestly we should have dared more with our requests for redesign. The naphtha throwers are extremely good. Price will tell if they are OP but I do see we have an issue especially it they can be taken by T5 4W models.

    Also the problem with the forest rangers having vanguard and 2-3 characters inside... don’t slayers vanguard already and have the possibility to have characters?
  • New

    Both models from the bottom picture are from CoolMiniOrNot. They were limited editions as far as I know and only a handful are cast every year. I had to wait over a year to get a notification mail that the model is in stock again.

    And as you can probably see, both models are not really suitable as gaming pieces. They are much too large. It took me quite a while to figure out a way to put them on the gaming table. :D
  • New

    Kodos der Henker wrote:

    Mahlzeit wrote:

    The model- and rank-issue would and will remain until the Kestrels re-gain skirmishers with shields
    placing an empty/scenic base between those models that won't rank up is not an option?
    it is not like it would have always been done that way in Warhammer with GW models that were impossible to rank up or after units changed from R&F to Skirmish or changes of the Skirmish rules
    The kestrels were the first unit I've painted for this army, and I'm quite satisfied with them.
    Now, how should I rank these up? They almost don't fit on a skirmisher base at the moment! Put an empty base in between or glue some trees in the middle, leaving one rider on the shelf? C'mon, man...



    It's the hipocrisy that gets me. Everyone and their dog is talking about streamlining, but no-one even thought about making all flying units skirmishers by default. Which makes a lot of sense if you ask me. Ranked-up, not so much.
    I don't really care about the buff, sine when you charge (should be most of the time) you have to maximise contact anyways. 120mm without skirmish is already big, and getting rear charges off with the kestrels isn't that hard, so you'll have maximum contact with both versions.

    I'd rather they make every flying unit skirmish, then ACS and TT for the books can add their respective flavor in a fashion they see fit.
    This just angers me.
    Moreover, I consider that the Seven Sins should be destroyed as an army background.