Why de legionaires and hbe spears should get heavy (medium) armour options back.

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  • Why de legionaires and hbe spears should get heavy (medium) armour options back.

    I really like the heavy armour (although as i have said before i think 5+ armour should be renamed medium armour) option for both as it reflected my models who seemed to be armoured with better than a simple breastplate or goblin mail shirt.

    The gameplay reason is i think it gives more of a reason to take them over sea guard (who are pretty ubiquitous) or repeater auxilleries with a shield.

    I get that those two units are slightly dearer but they can do everything the basic unit can do and more hence i always revert to them.

    Giving legionairres and citizen spears access to heavy armour actually makes them stronger in 1 area (armour save) and restores some internal balance in their favour.
  • Hmm.

    I can kind of see this - for an appropriate price of course.

    These are pretty much the closest the armies come to a tanking unit and they are pretty terrible at it. I do not see elves being good at this role, but going to 4+ AS is not going to make them good relative to the armies that can...

    On the other hand there is a growing trend for units to need at least s4/s5 to be relevant and basic troops are already just cannon-fodder. I could see something like this working but only if there were to be broad re-balancing across the game to ensure low strength units are still relevant.
  • We did have 5+ armour (lets call it "heavy" armour for now) options for both of course in 1.0.(and neither sea guard nor repeater auxilleries did to reflect their all rounder "medium infantry" nature rather than pure tankiness.

    I see both hbe and de spears as a kind of "hoplite" unit that was indeed heavy infantry

    Anyone know why they were removed/what was the feedback? Its not like its an "invisible" upgrade (and i supported the removal of those - this identicle unit is the veteran one and its always in the right place at the right time") - Armour is often on a spectrum and the lines between heavy-looking light armour and lighter looking heavy armour can be fuzzy but that is true of all the other options to choose between armour ckasses that remain littered throughout the books (ogre tuskers anyone?)

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Vulgarsty ().

  • Their armour has the same visual look as SMs who have heavy so doubt it's a visual thing.

    From a game play perspective I'd like to see heavy armour added to HbE spears so they perform a pseudo anvil role (FW will be better at this as they should be). Seaguard keep light armour but get a price cut from the frankly obscene points per model they have currently.
  • While I agree that spears should get HA, I don't see many people taking sea guard cos they're so over-costed, while I do see various combinations of spears because they can be reasonably cheap for HBE, so I wouldn't buy that as part of the argument. I think it's been confirmed that HBE spears at least won't be getting HA in this round of changes though, so we'll need to wait and see what comes of the 2.0 full AB re-writes. Fingers crossed!
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  • Vulgarsty wrote:

    I really like the heavy armour (although as i have said before i think 5+ armour should be renamed medium armour) option for both as it reflected my models who seemed to be armoured with better than a simple breastplate or goblin mail shirt.

    The gameplay reason is i think it gives more of a reason to take them over sea guard (who are pretty ubiquitous) or repeater auxilleries with a shield.

    I get that those two units are slightly dearer but they can do everything the basic unit can do and more hence i always revert to them.

    Giving legionairres and citizen spears access to heavy armour actually makes them stronger in 1 area (armour save) and restores some internal balance in their favour.
    I agree with this. As someone who ran forest guard with spears and 4+ armour and loved it I was pretty ticked when that option got removed. The option was unique in the army and served to set the unit apart. However I can sorta see the justification for removing it from SE as the most lightly armoured of the elves.

    However HBE and DE I feel should have access to 4+ save core infantry, invisible option or not. Its fitting and is a unique reason to take these units in an otherwise lightly armoured faction. Well aside from LG but thats another conversation.
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  • It's an "invisible" unit upgrade, and those aren't popular with the powers that be nowadays. I think that's fair enough. Another reason for why heavy armour was removed is that it shouldn't be a strength of elves in general. I agree with that. However, I think something should be done to make armour better across the board so that even lower armour saves will be useful. Now that Strength and AP will be separated we might get just that. My old idea was to cap armour at 2+ (makes sense) and let AP start at Str 5, but something to that effect could easily be implemented in the new stats I'm sure. :)

    Theo
  • 20phoenix wrote:

    HA makes sense to me from an RP viewpoint too. Light armour wearers are the likes of mages, archers and scouts who wear leather or cloth armours in RPGs. Heavy Armour is worn by regular combat troops, those in an RPG that wear chain mail, and plate mail by your fighty warrior types. Spears fit into that chain mail bracket comfortably.
    Not in this game, or the game most of us played before T9A. :) Chain mail = light armour, for the most part. A whole body covered in mail might be considered heavy armour, but usually those units that have that have elements of plate as well. Leather and cloth isn't armour, unless you're talking about gambeson...which was worn underneath both chain and plate armour, or might in some cases constitute light armour on its own.

    Theo
  • Clockwork wrote:

    I understand it was removed from de as both an invisible upgrade due to commonly used models not having two distinctive types (GW), and being something of a noobtrap (it was always better to take more models than have armour).
    the noobtrap is gone with size limits on units.
    I fully agree that there should be a wider selection on armor especially for melee infantry (disregarding goblins, rats, peasants and undead). Profesional melee soldiers like elves and EoS heavy infantry should all wear heavy armor to set them apart from missile troops.
    Hopefully light armor shield will atleast be a bit better with seperation of st and ap.
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • I am getting a bit more worried about this the more I think about it.

    If heavy armour becomes more common then there is a need to make higher strength or AP a bit more common to stop heavy armoured units getting out of control. This in turn means that light armour stops doing anything in the game and is a total wasted option.

    I think any addition has to be done in such a way that makes light armour more relevant rather than less relevant.

    If we want these iconic guard units to be tankier I would look to some slight increase in protection vs shooting or some "shield wall" type rule instead. Something that makes them feel like they look - a disciplined formation that can hold a pass or other chokepoint.
  • I dont think ha vs la should be considered an "invisible" upgrade. There are better and worse armoured models from other manufacturers out there wh foundry (unless we are being defined by what gw produced of course)

    Invisible options aren't depicted at all (this is a veteran regiment, the blue banner boys have a frenzy upgrade etc.) and are rightly removed but this is a false equivalence with something that is depicted but is on a spectrum (as long as it is plausibly explained)

    If we ARE allowing gw models to determine the armour class then they are all definitely ha imho - if a hauberk plus a breastplate and shoulder guards on top plus a helmet only consutites light armour then heavy and plate would be unliftable - no matter how evenly distributed they are.
  • If it's not an option but a default setting it isn't invisible either,because you won't have some spears with and some without. And if we compare it to the current gw range and apply the invisible argument it applies even now: spears have comparable armour to sword masters and wardens, arguably more than lions, and certainly no less than sea guard. I honestly don't think invisible is a valid argument, I think it needs to be game play, and the question then is: do elven spears need heavy armour? Many of us think yes, so it would be interesting to hear more on why they *don't *, given that is the default.
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  • @Throgg imp right now AP is so common Heavy armor on melee units will just ballance out.
    A reduction if AP and increase in armor, will ofcourse require some cost balancing.
    rank and file especially core, is so soft now a days that they are almost useless against dedicated melee troops, that is just wrong imho.
    Making the game somewhat less killy should be a general priority.
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. For Sunna and the Emperor!!

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Smythen ().

  • Smythen wrote:

    @Throgg imp right now AP is so common Heavy armor on melee units will just ballance out.
    A reduction if AP and increase in armor, will ofcourse require some cost balancing.
    but this is the point. Armour is so common and so powerful that people take AP if they can. If we want AP to be taken less frequently we need to lower the frequency of the thing it counters. Raising the frequency of HA units will just mean more AP.
  • Theorox wrote:

    20phoenix wrote:

    HA makes sense to me from an RP viewpoint too. Light armour wearers are the likes of mages, archers and scouts who wear leather or cloth armours in RPGs. Heavy Armour is worn by regular combat troops, those in an RPG that wear chain mail, and plate mail by your fighty warrior types. Spears fit into that chain mail bracket comfortably.
    Not in this game, or the game most of us played before T9A. :) Chain mail = light armour, for the most part. A whole body covered in mail might be considered heavy armour, but usually those units that have that have elements of plate as well. Leather and cloth isn't armour, unless you're talking about gambeson...which was worn underneath both chain and plate armour, or might in some cases constitute light armour on its own.
    Theo


    This doesn't really stack up from a HbE perspective. All elite units and lancers have the same visual mail as spears yet have HA. Mages have no armour only robes yet have LA. Shooty units do fit your description though.


    As Ferny said I don't think invisible upgrade is a valid reason for rejecting HA on spears.
  • Agree. However, I think it will come with a ppm increase (if only a slight one).

    Right now for example SE and HBE spears are exactly balanced or as near as possible. Giving HA would mean either SE gets a price drop (not something I would expect re internal balance) or HBE spears get a small increase.
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  • Korvain wrote:

    It was removed because it was shown mathematically multiple times to always be a worse choice to upgrade to heavy armor than to just spend those points on more bodies for the unit. Both HBE and DE forums have posts showing this. The discussions were from around a year ago.
    with size limits on units, this cannot still be the case? unless you create an entire new unit.
    But again your concern can be managed with coreect pricing
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. For Sunna and the Emperor!!