WDG book 2.0 discussion

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  • fjugin wrote:



    Some units lost options, other units gained options.
    - more marks on all types of chosen
    - BSB option on lord
    - Mount options for barbarian cheif
    - Mount for doomlord
    - Non flying chimera
    - great weapons on knights
    - weapon options on chosen chariot
    - wretched beasts in units of 2+ models
    - Bows on flayers
    - Giants with weapon options
    Of all that stuff there are quite few useful things that open new possibilities. And nothing is as important as marks on core warriors was.
    Do you think, if we had a choice, would we choose bows on flayers, great weapons on knights, and paired weapon on chosen chariot instead of that? Or all of that instead one really important option? No chance.
  • Altao wrote:

    strenghts just left untouched
    Let's look at what strengths the book was given.

    - Armour
    Surely no one can argue WDG is not one of the most well armoured armies in the game.


    - Combat - grinding
    Again, clearly implemented with tons of strong combat units.
    I know some argue that it's not true, because chosen might lose to points-for-point to some combat units. Charging DE Dread Judges (formerly executioners) beat chosen pretty bad for example. But that's more of a points and balance fine-tuning thing. Let's ignore that for now and assume good balance will be achieved in the coming months.


    - Ld independence
    Lots of units with fearless and ability to reroll breaktests. Some unit with optional coldblodded. Barbarians have above average discipline for humans.
    I'd say this army among the armies with the least dependency on being close to general or BSB. Not all builds and units are, but that's not the point either. Strengths are more about opt-in. About having access to these things and being able to base armies around it. Not that every single unit in the book must have it.


    - Speed
    Remember that a strength doesn't have to be about every unit in the book having it, but rather having access to it and being able to build armies around it. WDG doesn't have very strong base troops, but they have access to some very fast choices. They have the fastest character mounts in the game. March 20 chimera, unbroken chimera and shadow chaser. March 18" skywheel. Fastests dragon in the game.
    8"/16" feldraks are pretty much unrivaled next to comparable options in other books. They have access to scoring core units with 8"/16" which surely top tier in terms if speed for this particular class of units.

    And the infantry have some tricks and options as well. Favours for rerolling charge. battlefever on all barbarians. Extra march range on banner which allows for creating very fast units if you wish (remember it can be combined with BRB banner for a very big march rage bonus).

    If you want to, you can build incredibly fast WDG armies.


    - Offensive magic, big devastating spells
    Access to the most devastating path in the game, with some neat bonus ability from the sacrifice (soul tokens). Wizards come with miscast protection which allows them to cast these big devastating spells more safely.

    Altar is pretty much dedicated to only casting damage spells.

    And the hereditary spell has the potential to be the most devastating spell in the game. Obviously it will cost you to cast it with 2D6 s5. This is kind of a trade-off we did to both stay true to ASAW, but still give WDG access to what the army really needs: chaff clearing. Hence option to cast small version to kill chaff, or bigger version to kill bigger stuff.

    Immortal Gauntlets is intended to help here as well, but I must admit this item probably falls a bit flat.




    Which strength is not implemented in the book?
    And btw, strengths (and weaknesses) should not be looked at in terms of how a book changed from its older version. They should be looked at from perspective of all other (current) books.
    e.g. "Is WDG among the most well armoured armies in the game"
    not
    "Is new WDG book more armoured than old WDG book".
    - Assistant Head of Rules clarity -
  • fjugin wrote:

    In 1.3 it was pretty much impossible to fit more than 3 big flyers
    Yeah, but in 8th edition Warhammer you could have a Demon Prince, a Lord on Dragon and two chimeras in special. I feel like this should be allowed but some balancing done to make it not be so ridiculously OP. I.e. you can still run it, but it's not abusive like it was in 8th.

    Perhaps also add some kind of rule to reduce RPS matchups.

    Nongor wrote:

    his name is Trevor
    OK, in honor of Trevor and all contrarian/hipster players I have edited my previous comment.
    In life, a player is nameless. But when their playstyle is squatted, they get a name. His name was Trevor.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Warboss_R'ok ().

  • fjugin wrote:

    e.g. "Is WDG among the most well armoured armies in the game"
    not
    "Is new WDG book more armoured than old WDG book".
    Would expect latter (even at minimal scale after weakness-nerfs) :/ Even temporary (until all books get applied weaknesses).
    Current armies:
    WDG - Waiting for better times
    VC

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Armywide Signature Spells - Check! Maybe you could add something more? Success! We got Hereditary Spells!
  • Nongor wrote:

    @Warboss_R'ok his name is Trevor and he has played that way for ten years or so. Warriors were perfectly capable of playing two big shooting units, 2 sorcerers and a blasted standard (whatever it was called). Are you saying his fun is wrong?
    He is saying his fun is not aligned with the background of the army (probably never was) and is therefor a imission breaker hit by ASAW.
  • fjugin wrote:

    Altao wrote:

    strenghts just left untouched
    Let's look at what strengths the book was given.
    - Armour
    Surely no one can argue WDG is not one of the most well armoured armies in the game.


    - Combat - grinding
    Again, clearly implemented with tons of strong combat units.
    I know some argue that it's not true, because chosen might lose to points-for-point to some combat units. Charging DE Dread Judges (formerly executioners) beat chosen pretty bad for example. But that's more of a points and balance fine-tuning thing. Let's ignore that for now and assume good balance will be achieved in the coming months.


    - Ld independence
    Lots of units with fearless and ability to reroll breaktests. Some unit with optional coldblodded. Barbarians have above average discipline for humans.
    I'd say this army among the armies with the least dependency on being close to general or BSB. Not all builds and units are, but that's not the point either. Strengths are more about opt-in. About having access to these things and being able to base armies around it. Not that every single unit in the book must have it.


    - Speed
    Remember that a strength doesn't have to be about every unit in the book having it, but rather having access to it and being able to build armies around it. WDG doesn't have very strong base troops, but they have access to some very fast choices. They have the fastest character mounts in the game. March 20 chimera, unbroken chimera and shadow chaser. March 18" skywheel. Fastests dragon in the game.
    8"/16" feldraks are pretty much unrivaled next to comparable options in other books. They have access to scoring core units with 8"/16" which surely top tier in terms if speed for this particular class of units.

    And the infantry have some tricks and options as well. Favours for rerolling charge. battlefever on all barbarians. Extra march range on banner which allows for creating very fast units if you wish (remember it can be combined with BRB banner for a very big march rage bonus).

    If you want to, you can build incredibly fast WDG armies.


    - Offensive magic, big devastating spells
    Access to the most devastating path in the game, with some neat bonus ability from the sacrifice (soul tokens). Wizards come with miscast protection which allows them to cast these big devastating spells more safely.

    Altar is pretty much dedicated to only casting damage spells.

    And the hereditary spell has the potential to be the most devastating spell in the game. Obviously it will cost you to cast it with 2D6 s5. This is kind of a trade-off we did to both stay true to ASAW, but still give WDG access to what the army really needs: chaff clearing. Hence option to cast small version to kill chaff, or bigger version to kill bigger stuff.

    Immortal Gauntlets is intended to help here as well, but I must admit this item probably falls a bit flat.




    Which strength is not implemented in the book?
    And btw, strengths (and weaknesses) should not be looked at in terms of how a book changed from its older version. They should be looked at from perspective of all other (current) books.
    e.g. "Is WDG among the most well armoured armies in the game"
    not
    "Is new WDG book more armoured than old WDG book".

    Let's examine that - "we should not compare to older version" and question it. First, let's actually *do* that comparison:

    Is it more armoured than the old book? No. It's about the same.
    Is it grindier in combat than the old book? No. It's kinda worse.
    Is it more independent in Ld than the old book? Yes. This got pushed pretty heavily, really.
    Is it faster than the old book? No, it's slower for the infantry (in terms of fastest builds).
    Is it more devastatingly blasty? ehn. No, not really - magic got nerfed hard in 1.3 and has not recovered. The best spells these days are kinda disappointing by previous standards and have in fact been ongoingly nerfed, getting weaker more than once.


    So the WDG book didn't get any better at it's strengths (other than Ld).


    Then we, as game designers, need to realize that OF COURSE players will compare nuWDG to oWDG. We actively chastise people when they talk about comparing units across books! It's absolutely ridiculous to suddenly go "but now it's okay. Exult in how much better armoured Chosen are than Swordmasters. Stop looking at their killing power and point costs. Stop it."


    As you said - options were reduced.

    In fact, options were reduced painfully. Five options, one of which is different based on mark, is more than just plain five options.

    The decision made here was almost completely the opposite of what would have been a crowd-pleaser. I'm about 80% sure that what *should* have been the focus was on making seven different viable monotheist armies, such that you can't just go "this power sucks, that's better, go with Sloth" - because you're giving up X to get Y. (ala VC bloodline armies - which, when pushed towards balance, are popular)

    Instead, you get freedom of choice... but less things to choose from, and the choices are simplified.


    Variant armies - whether terracotta, bloodline or God-based... are popular. People *like* incentives to build to a theme.
  • The army had that background @tiny. There were massive sieges carried out in Kislev and the Empire. Warriors had massive warmachines hauled by monsters! They had Daemons bound to warmachines!
    They did not just walk up to the front door and ask politely to be let in. They tore down the walls, they smashed down the doors, they blasted the stone with magic and they butchered all who stood in their way.
    That was done by magic. That was done by warmachines. And that did not go against the background of the Warriors of Dark Gods.
  • Warriors of the Dark Gods are not Warriors of Chaos.

    T9A is not Warhammer.

    Your argument is no more valid than one based in Kings of War lore would be.


    (Now, if we point out that GW had an army with no shooty and then introduced the Hellcannon because the question of "how do you even do sieges without artillery" came up... THAT is a relevant parallel.

    Does T9A have an answer? Maybe. It's too late at night for me to try to dig it up tho'.)
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Variant armies - whether terracotta, bloodline or God-based... are popular. People *like* incentives to build to a theme.
    Yup. This is really important IMO.


    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    "how do you even do sieges without artillery"
    Maybe a gun that lobs portals into the city would be helpful for that, so you can just teleport in? We should write rules for something like that!... oh wait..
  • fjugin wrote:

    One of the aims of full rewrites is to make armybooks roughly the same size in terms of how much content they have (this can be seen as they all have the same "complexity budget").

    If so ye please - it is in yer powers to reduce content too - but do we agree that the real offender to the cognitive components that make up the overall complexity are found elsewhere than in the special rules and statlines of the armybook entries?

    I think the nerds more than capable of consuming an increase of content - but the complexity is point brink (thats a swedish cross county reference that us Norse like to poke at em) - and to many the threshold for 2.0 is simply too high. I just had an exphil student that brags his newfound sophism try read the 2.0 core rules - his reading quickly going from reading to skimming to im-not-bothering-with-this - but yet he is the one naggin me that we should go nationals in february.

    Ye get?

    There Is No Spoon wrote:


    Altao wrote:

    In a perfect world, ASAW should be implemented in way that players enjoy it.
    Corrected
    Hopefully players on both sides of the table, right? :P

    Nah - im 100% sadistic pleasures tableside - the counterpart little more than prey to my ferocious filth. Sure would be nice to not always have to play with myself in the dusk of night though.

    (yer tone is a tad condesending and implies a soft accusation of WDG players only caring for themselves)
    Why not hold elections for key seats? Oh! And direction of the game - that would also be hella cool :)

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    *loads of reasonable and coherent arguments on why old mediocre shouldnt be new great*

    ..


    also


    crowd-pleaser

    Im just gonna leave that hangin`. Perhaps the @saint_barbara paradigm of less content more specialization will pull a big crowd somewhere.

    But there sure are quite a few nerds waving red flags that complexity should be reduced elsewhere than in the candy.. I mean content. Ammirite @Warboss_R'ok.
    Why not hold elections for key seats? Oh! And direction of the game - that would also be hella cool :)

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    @Nongor

    That's a completely different argument. It correctly distinguishes that T9A is not Warhammer, unlike the one I was replying to (which seemed to be rather mistaken on the facts).

    As long as we're clear on that point, I have no horse in this race.

    The Barbarians could bring light siege equipment - like a Bronzino stole his concept of galloper guns from the long Barbarian tradition of Portalistas and Barbapults.
    Why not hold elections for key seats? Oh! And direction of the game - that would also be hella cool :)

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • @WhammeWhamme - it was @tiny who claimed the army did not have that background and should not have. Our T9A rules clearly described a Cannon, and the rules used were quite clear it was artillery fire. It was a cannon with a Daemon bound to it.
    You are correct the background is different and I look forward to stories of Warriors knocking politely on city doors and asking to be let in. Of course they can now teleport so I guess I’ll build a Trojan horse for a marker.