VC magic, specifically generating new models into units in CC.

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  • VC magic, specifically generating new models into units in CC.

    I have yet to play a VC army, but I have watched several battle reports that quite literally shocked me as to the inability to defeat a unit of 50 skeletons despite crushing half the unit in one round of CC!
    The next round of magic the unit is up to full strength and the attacker is invariable weaker due to unrecoverable wounds. AND the non VC player has gained "0" points towards any final points for game calculations!
    Not to mention that the VC player by building more figures every turn has exceeded the maximum points value allowed for his army! I mean the VC player can literally sit in a corner and start raising more figures every turn without any set limits. Whatever the dice rolls give them! In the right hands this is truly an unbreakable army.
    Theoretically, this army could end up with more points then it stated with!
    Oh, but they are weak and fragile you say. Well not all their units are the same. They have some great punch in their graveguard horde.
    Raising figures into CC seems unreasonable to me. Raising undead out of CC is reasonable I guess. but not to exceed the size of the original unit, that is gaining excess figures over and above their original purchase and therefore gaining extra points for the original army build limit. And that is just not right.
    Additionally, there should be some limits on how many figs are in their units. Fifty figs max should be quite enough!

    I await the comments of VC players everywhere as to why my ideas are really bad ideas for the VC army.
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  • you might want to double check the vc rules. They cannot raise without limits :)
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  • Don't forget the effect that crumbling has on the army also.

    I once won a combat by 18 against zombies and popped the whole unit of like 35.

    The secret to beating VC is to ignore their buff spells and stop their Evocations after they reach combat...Every time. The only spell other than Evocation you should probably stop is the Strength 10 hit D3 wound one iirc. Often my VC opponents try to get too many spells off and fail one, giving me dominance in the Magic Phase.

    You can also snipe/assasinate their Necromancers who are usually poorly protected and are usually the only wizards capable of raising non-zombies above their starting size. (ie only Necros have Awaken: Skeletons except for a bloodline or item iirc)

    Frequently Necromancers are bunkered in the same unit. There are several spells to deal with bunkers, the Witchcraft one being especially good.
  • it doesn't seem unreasonable. It is an army feature like BH ambush or DL wardsaves. You "buy" the upgrade by playing VC and forfeit whatever corresponding bonus you would have got with a different army.

    Secondly it takes power dice. You could take a better lore otherwise and get other things from the magic phase.

    My concern is that the effects are uneven. If you have an army of powerful multi-attack high strength models then you can demolish units. If you just have shooting or grinding options it seems a pretty tough sell.

    Still this is about expectations - I haven't played against VC in this edition yet, the reality of it may be different.
  • Have you looked at the point costs of VC models? For example look at the point cost of a slave vs. the point cost of a zombie and then compare the stats. The slave gets better stats for 2pts more, but zombies get an evoc value. The raising mechanic is a huge tradeoff without raising 90% of VC units would be garbage for their points costs.

    A unit of 50 skeletons can easily be killed in one round of combat. I've had it happen on multiple occasions. Swordmasters, halberd empire guys (after getting buff spells on them). Think about it, these are ws2 t3 models that strike at I2 they would probably be worth no more than 7-8pts per model if you couldn't raise them.

    What a lot of non-VC players think when they play VC is that if they could raise their guys back it would be super OP. It would but not if all your guys got a 30% increase in point costs. This isn't even mention the extremely restrictive march rules placed on VC and the fact that losing your general is close to an auto-lose. Also keep in mind that VC list in the video spent close to 1000pts on magic.

    Just so you're aware, as @Nicereap pointed out, there are limits on how many models can be in one unit. That and the vast majority of units can't be raised past their starting size and all but one (zombies) can't be raised past their starting size except by certain casters.
  • This is exactly what blocks of zombies - and to a lesser extent skeletons - are meant to do.
    A shambling horde that keeps coming.

    The ability to raise into combat is more than balanced by the high cost, poor performance in combat and of course, the crumbling mechanic.

    The trick is not to get stuck in a zombie tarpit, those blocks have very poor manoeuvrability so are relatively easy to avoid.
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  • DaveRaven wrote:

    Sure raise all you want, but in a combat just doesn't seem right to me. Just too cheesy a rule to allow that to happen.
    So you think 1 turn possibly 2 of raising before combat is worth roughly every unit and 1000+ points of magic...?

    Our models are overpriced with evocation in mind its the whole point of playing VC. Use monsters/flankers and go around flanks to kill necro bunker, or get into combat quick witha killy unit and make sure you stop 1-2 of the raise spells dont bother with the buff spells
  • Dropping into a coffin corner where the Necro Bunker is unreachable except for missile fire and Magic, (both unreliable with the right buffs) and raising 3 to 4 turns is what scares me. Then to continue to raise into combat on your Hordes anchoring your flanks while you slowly melt my fragile attackers. Then you have 2 turns to release your grave guard and heard for the objectives.
    Come on, you have to admit that is a very strong strategy. Unbreakable hordes that regrow right into combat! Pretty tough to beat that.
    I am a student. I will always be a student. Because I am always studying for better ways to do things.
  • It is a strong strategy that can win games but what do you do when facing a bunch of flying stuff? Or a unit of 30 swordmasters that can kill those Barrow Guard before they even strike? Although it is a strong strategy, it has counters, is not close to unbeatable, and is probably not even the 'best' VC strategy.

    The hordes also have unstable so that makes them a lot easier to beat.
  • As I've said before, yes I could probibly build an Army list to deal with this strategy, but it wouldn't do very well against other races in a tournament setting.
    On the other hand this VC list does very well against any race that does not have a VC killing list. It is a all-around excellent list.
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  • I don't think I've ever seen a Barrow flavoured Deathstar that didn't have Tullius'Teeth, so Sword Master's hit on 3's and wound on 3's. A maxed unit does almost 18 wounds to Barrow Guard on average. That is usually enough to cripple the unit beyond Evocation repair.

    For the most part though, most units in T9A don't do enough damage to outpace Evocation repair if a Vampire is cutting into their ranks. Which is why stopping that spell is a priority.

    I just hate that they gave Blade of Red Thirst +1 Strength back (and for only 15 points more). It has too much versatility now as it can be used against both R&F and Characters. Imo, S5 is plenty strong for killing R&F which should be the Sword's purpose.
  • Nicreap wrote:

    you might want to double check the vc rules. They cannot raise without limits :)
    It just seems like they have no limits when raising 4 massive hordes all at the same time, magic die seem to be the limit per turn. And yes, 50 per unit is a pretty high cap IMHO. After which they re-raise casualties with wild abandon! HBE are reft of units that can crack those nuts before we become out-flanked and slowly join the ranks of the dead.
    I am a student. I will always be a student. Because I am always studying for better ways to do things.
  • But that is also very luck (2D6+X or 3D6, etc) and vampire bloodline dependent as only zombies can be raised en masse and only certain bloodlines have access to Evocation.

    I think the crumble/Evocation/point cost balance is good against about 80% of the units in T9A (single attack, basic armor save), but is somewhat lacking against units which can generate a enough combat res to almost pop the unit in one round of combat. (Many attacks, high strength, Initiative >3)

    I'm a weird non-VC one who advocates that VC have alternative ways to win besides Evo spam, and I'd like to see this accomplished mostly through movement tactics. I remember the days when VC could raise a unit and then use Van Hel's to charge them into an enemy flank to tarpit or generate combat res. VC is mostly non-elite and I think that this kind of tactic stays true to that design, while improving army function. Adding a Reform at the end of Danse Macabre would go a long way towards making this possible.
  • DaveRaven wrote:

    Nicreap wrote:

    you might want to double check the vc rules. They cannot raise without limits :)
    It just seems like they have no limits when raising 4 massive hordes all at the same time, magic die seem to be the limit per turn. And yes, 50 per unit is a pretty high cap IMHO. After which they re-raise casualties with wild abandon! HBE are reft of units that can crack those nuts before we become out-flanked and slowly join the ranks of the dead.
    You do realise that the starting size on the undead units which you can raise past starting size isn't even capped at 50? The limit is they can go up to twice the original size. I really have never been in a tournament where a VC player did well with less than 3 evocs. If you remove raising mechanics from the army you'll have to completely redesign everything.

    As for the blade of red thirst no one took it before the +1 strength update and it went up in 25pts and got worse self-healing capabilities.

    Anytime someone feels an army is OP they really should proxy models and try playing that army against a decent player and see if it is really such an OP strategy. VC are definitely a strong army right now but no stronger than the other strong armies in the game.
  • I certainly wasn't calling them OP, although I only win 1 out of 3 or 4 games against them with my Vermin Swarm (My lists are full Tournament strength, and my 2 VC opponents' lists are ones they just put together, lol). But, they're a bad match up for rats being a fellow horde army.

    Basically it boils down to who can use Terrain the best and who has better magic phases. VC is difficult for armies that can't keep their Hammer units at bay for 3 turns, snipe their Characters dead or deal 15+ wounds in Combat per turn.

    VC will be very strong if/when the magic investment to magic output ratio becomes consistent/stable.
  • 1. Like Vamp87 said. VC troops generally suck for their price in terms of stats and abilities
    2. Huge minuses like dead General and Marching applies
    3. VC must invest in magic and are shackled into taking Evocation
    4. Sure VC spam raising spells, but then at least they arent casting damage or debuff (which is no wonder since Evocation is pretty crap)


    If you're having trouble with Skeletons and Zombies its an LTP issue. It actually takes a deal of skill for a VC player to make these count for anything. BG are another proposition, but is a M4 deathstar...


    The Unmarked wrote:


    VC will be very strong if/when the magic investment to magic output ratio becomes consistent/stable.
    If that happens then Im sure there will be caps of some sort. Cant be raised more than X over starting size or something or Evoke values being modified