It's time for Africa !

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    • i agree about the fluff. Still to me the rat empire is the most good bg so far. The others...meh. Simple the bg developed so far is not reflecting the army rules. Example dread elves and high elves, but is not thei fault. Is difficult when ypu have to respect an already made complete army.. About the apes. To me id a good idea, but is lacking of good miniatures.
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    • Calisson wrote:

      From an internal conversation elsewhere, but relevant here:

      Ghiznuk wrote:

      I was wondering what is T9A thought about our theory (that is, as part of the « It's time for Africa! » project) that the Eastern African Taphrian Great Rift Valley could be a dæmonic rift and the original source of all Chaos on Earth, including of sapience and sin ?

      Since humans originated in Africa, and sapience and sin are closely interconnected ;
      we even surmised in the homebrew Mukumubusu army that those Apes would consider all Humans and Elves as Chaos mutants.

      Any chance of seeing that creation integrated in the BG one day ?
      It rather touches to the fundamentals of the universe…
      If it goes against the already written fluff, please let us know also, so that we can revise the one we wrote ;)
      Relevant replies:Our setting does not have evolution as a thing we understand in the 21st century from a single common ancestor.
      We do not know where the original humans came to be "awaken" or whether there was just a single such "awakening" or if it happened at multiple places at the same time. There are no major or permanent naturally occurring Rifts in the Veil. The Veil repairs itself over time. Also there is not such thing as original source of Chaos. Chaos just is.

      When the project expands the background in the direction of currently uncovered areas, many of the ideas developed outside the Project run the risk to be found incompatible with the setting developed by the Project. That is the risk of Homebrew.
      That's BS Calisson. Evolution is a necessary consequence of some pretty basic assumptions. It's literally impossible to conceive of a world without evolution once you understand what evolution is.

      (Evolution requires 4 things to be true, and necessarily follows if they are: 1. There is variation in a population. 2. That variation is heritable. 3. More are born than survive. 4. Survival rates vary with respect to one or more traits with variation.)

      Trying to imagine a world where those things don't follow ends up exiling humans from that world, because our fundamental understanding of what humans are requires all of those things (or requires things which imply those things - ie, 3. is a consequence of exponential growth of populations, if nothing else, which is the natural consequence of human reproductive mechanics).

      As to 'single common ancestor', while maybe not for all life, that elves and humans both have men and women (with, afaik, the same sorts of secondary sexual characteristics) strongly argues for the common origin of at least some races. Trying to write biologies which didn't even require a (distant) common origin for SA and humans would be exceedingly hard.

      Finally, brain architecture is also something that evolves, and what creates the capacity to understand others (because we literally do think like they do). That we can understand any non-human races at all argues for a shared evolutionary origin. Otherwise everything non-human is the alien outsider that cannot be understood, because their brains are totally different, and any attempt to do so would merely be inaccurate anthropomorphizing on our part. (Even relatively similar common origin would result in misunderstandings, but no common ancestor - there'd literally be no place for developing a shared understanding.)

      (On a more general level - and this is half remembered, but all life on earth shares certain chiralities of critical organic molecules, and sharing that chirality is necessary for survival of organisms - eg, in nutrition from eating. You could imagine a parallel earth with the chirality reversed, and everything would work fine. But if you transplanted a creature from one earth to the other, it would starve. And since chirality has no reason to be one way or the other, common origin is required, because that's the only reason they'd be the same. With independent creation you'd flip a coin on chirality, and end up with a hodge podge. Not the best cite, but here's what I could find quickly which talks about homochirality: smithsonianmag.com/space/must-…r-right-handed-180959956/).
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

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      The post was edited 3 times, last by Squirrelloid ().

    • As has been said multiple times 9th Age setting is a mythological setting. There is no need for evolution as we know it because the setting was created in a cosmogony. Entities at the very top of our setting's hierarchy willed it into existence alongside almost everything that can be encountered in the T9A in the "modern day" of the setting.

      Think of how Greeks, Norse or the Slavs imagined the world in their myths and how it came into being and you will get the basis of the inspiration what T9A setting is.

      We are yet unsure whether there are more "planets" beyond the one where the action takes place, or whether there are real stars or if they are just lights upon the firmament that surrounds the globe.

      :)

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    • Wouldn't this discussion be more useful in a more generic thread than this one on Taphria Homebrew?

      @Giladis knows already my feelings about how Greeks, Norse or Slavs myths were developed in a world where, and at a time when evolution and life's common ancestor were unthinkable. No matter how great were hese myths (and Genesis), they did not prevent a future of that world to seem governed by evolution and common ancestors between species, and T9A players to be familiarized with these notions.

      I would be happy to see T9A develop its background in a way that, after centuries, Elves could find out that they evolved from a common ancestor with Dwarves and Apes.

      But I couldn't express this in a way that @Giladis would understand, he seems to understand that I ask in-world, in-time compatibility with evolution when I only wish it in-world, not understood yet.

      The title of that thread could be:
      In T9A divine view, do Gods exist?

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    • Calisson wrote:

      I would be happy to see T9A develop its background in a way that, after centuries, Elves could find out that they evolved from a common ancestor with Dwarves and Apes
      Evolved or were genetically engineered by SA to fit pre-designed role of slaves? Story of T9A races does not reach beyond the fall of cold-blooded empire...
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    • Why "or"? Could be "and".

      In our own real world, we have already produced mules for millenia, converted some wolves into chihuahua dogs, and recently engineered genetically some bacteria to produce medicine, not forgetting rat labs glowing in the dark or drosophile flies with more than 6 legs. I would believe that genetic engineering could provide us with 6 legged chickens some day - not arguing whether they would do that, only could.

      Non-natural creatures can exist, without the need for omnipotent gods. Still, even those which ancestors did belong to different species do share an ultimate common ancestor and abide by the laws of evolution - I did not specify "natural" evolution.

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    • If the ultimate common ancestor is not that far away the races can still cross-breed producing all those half-elves, half-orcs, ogrilions, etc. Beasts and Vermin Swarm suggest that the genome of mammal races of T9A world can be easily manipulated and accepts injection of foreign genes. Maybe it is because of magic, maybe it is because ancient SA unlocked that feature or maybe it was a trait of the commons ancestor. It could also explain 'gifts of dark gods', all those fallen, wretched beasts. It can also mean that genome is unstable...

      ... aren't we turning to post-apo from fantasy?
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    • Calisson wrote:

      In our own real world, we have already produced mules for millenia, converted some wolves into chihuahua dogs
      Don't forget the plants.
      Basically any and every single plant cultivated by humans is a mutant.

      In nature, Graminæ see their seeds fall after maturing. Our wheat, our rice, keep their seeds (and you actually have to spend hours thrashing them). Look at the evolution of maize. Look at how bananas don't make seeds at all anymore (any banana tree you see even in the most improbable location must have been planted there by a human).

      But anyway.

      I think the team already explained that evolution does happen, because you can't avoid, for the reasons @Squirrelloid exposed above, but it only started happening after world creation.



      Calisson wrote:

      The title of that thread could be:In T9A divine view, do Gods exist?
      That thread already exists ^^
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa
    • To come back to the point of Taphria :

      What we need to discuss and redesign here, is the Taphrian Rift.

      Why do we need to discuss it ?
      Because @Giladis message seems to invalidate what we wrote about it ;
      While at the same time that Rift has become quite central in everything we wrote about the Gavemite Dwarves, the Mukumbusu Apes and possibly the Veld Beasts.

      I still think some common ground can be found.
      @Giladis says there cannot be any permanent hole in the Veil.
      Fine.

      So the Rift cannot have been existing for ever, and cannot be at the origin of sapient species.
      Also, humans did not evolve from apes, so they are not mutant apes.
      (even though the apes could still have their own theory on the subject)

      However, we know for sure of two places of Chaos in the world, that are Dæmons and Warriors generators :
      1. the Wasteland, that has existed for as long as the 7th Age, and is still strong
      2. the Shattered Sea, that has been there since……… the end of the 1st Age !! and still very active it seems !! judging by what that Sorcerer in Anaba's story had to say about it.

      Can't we imagine a similar incident in the heart of Taphria ?

      I see the Rift as being a series of cracks that seep only a moderate flow of magic, so as not to contaminate everyone around.
      Normal people can still survive it. It's just that they have very strange dreams whenever they are near.
      No particular amount of strange mutated beasts, neither, (thanks to the Mukumbusu watch).
      Something that would just be needed to justify the inflow of magic that allows for example the Vanhu to manifest their Ancestor Spirits, and Dæmons to exist in Taphria.
      Could be something that has been there since even before the 1st Age, maybe the fabric of the world was not « sewn » right at world creation, or this is like a « zipper » on that fabric.
      Actually, it could be of the same strength as the « Veil spot » in Wyscan forest. Something like that.

      I see this mainly as a way that every continent has its own « hellish place ». Vetia and Augea have the Wasteland, Silexia and Virentia have the Shattered Sea. Taphria is a bit too far away from either.
      Also, the heart of Taphria is very much left unexplored, with Gerardus' world map lacking much detail here.
      What the heck, he even forgot the huge river that waters the Koghinan « capital » of Dogoko.
      Could have totally forgotten some very small, light, narrow, crack somewhere.
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa
    • BURKINA FASO MINISTRY OF CULTURE ADMITS DEFEATS TO LOCAL DJINNS – A NEW SITE WILL BE FOUND FOR THE FESPACO HQ
      (LINK)
      « En décembre 2005, dès l’inauguration officielle du nouveau siège du Festival panafricain du cinéma et de la télévision de Ouagadougou (Fespaco), des spécialistes de l’histoire mystique de la capitale mettaient en garde contre le choix de sa localisation, qui jouxte le pont Kadiogo, dans le secteur n°2 de la ville. Les anciens affirmaient que l’espace ne pouvait être occupé que par les kinkirsi (génies), les lieux ayant abrité autrefois un bois sacré dont il convenait de respecter la mémoire.
      En ce mois de septembre 2018, le ministre de la Culture a expliqué que l’État pourrait capituler face aux « génies ». Jeudi 20 septembre, évoquant publiquement les locaux toujours inachevés, Abdoul Karim Sango semblait résigné : « On est en Afrique, l’entrepreneur dit qu’il y a des génies là-bas. Vous voulez qu’on fasse quoi ? ».
      Et voilà lancée l’idée de « laisser les génies tranquillement à leur place » et de « trouver un autre lieu », non sans ajouter que « des sacrifices » avaient été faits mais que ceux-ci n’avaient « rien donné ».
      Avec humour, Radio Oméga évoque « une sortie… géniale » du ministre. Dans les forums, un internaute suppose que ces « génies en pleine ville doivent payer des impôts », tandis qu’un autre suggère de les « inviter à une conférence de presse pour qu’ils donnent leur version des faits. » Plus géopolitiques, des abonnés Facebook se demandent où étaient les génies quand les Blancs ont colonisé la Haute-Volta : « Ils dormaient quoi ! C’est maintenant qu’ils vont se réveiller pour nous fatiguer. » Encore plus pragmatique que le ministre, un observateur affirme que les génies ne feraient pas le poids si l’on confiait le chantier aux Chinois : « Hé l’Afrique, c’est quoi ça encore ? ». »
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa
    • I'm creating a data file for Vanhu Kingdom and have some questions:
      - Lone Hunter can only ride Living Legend, but if any Lone Hunter is the General, he can also ride Spirit Animal
      - Were-man can only ride Spirit Animal, but if any Lone Hunter is the General, he can also ride Living Legend
      - War Chief and Wise Man can only ride anything if Lone Hunter is the General
      Did I get it right?

      Some issues:
      Runner warriors are 0-3 and their Vanguard upgrade is also 0-3. Vanguard limitation is therefore redundant, as it is impossible to exceed it.

      Holy Maids have Assegais and Shields, yet in their options there is possibility to replace Spears and Shields with Paired Weapons. Should they have Spears instead of Assegais, or should replacemet option be "replace Assegai and Shield"

      There are also some pricing issues, especially with Triple-Horned Rhino ;p But who am I to judge ;)
    • DeBelial wrote:

      - Lone Hunter can only ride Living Legend, but if any Lone Hunter is the General, he can also ride Spirit Animal

      - Were-man can only ride Spirit Animal, but if any Lone Hunter is the General, he can also ride Living Legend
      - War Chief and Wise Man can only ride anything if Lone Hunter is the General
      Did I get it right?
      => :yes:


      Some issues:
      Runner warriors are 0-3 and their Vanguard upgrade is also 0-3. Vanguard limitation is therefore redundant, as it is impossible to exceed it.
      => :oops: :thumbup:


      Holy Maids... replacement option should be "replace Assegai and Shield" :oops: :thumbup:
      Thanks for spotting all of this.

      DeBelial wrote:

      There are also some pricing issues, especially with Triple-Horned Rhino ;p But who am I to judge ;)
      If you play T9A more than once a year, then you're more qualified than me to suggest adequate pricing.
      Please do not hesitate! :largegrin:
      Next, we would let people discuss and potentially object here for a couple of days (highly likely nobody would), then your suggestions would be taken into account in next edition.

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    • Not much going on at the moment.
      - Kegiz Gavem – the Ethiopian Dwarves of Light merely will get one additional page of background & picture.
      - MoonGobs - Goblins (and Orcs) from the Mountains of the Moon may get a slight update following @setrius suggestions.
      - Pilgrims and Saracens seems mature, possibly with some adjustment for the magic lores available to Saracens.
      All other Taphrian AB have not been subject to change requirement since last print.

      Besides, the Background of the Taphrian campaigns frame seems to have just to wait for more links.

      -=-=-
      So, what's next? We have 12 factions remaining to explore.
      Who is interested by what?
      FactionDerived Homebrew Auxiliary BookLink
      Beast Herds- Herds of the Inner Delta -The herbivore's Paradise! Hunt the hunters.
      Daemon Legions- Daemons of the Rift - => needs to wait for new 2.0 DL AB
      Dread Elves- Safari Slavers - Big Game fun! Huge profits to make! Zanzibar.
      Empire of Sonnstahl- Vosenlanders - Boers in South Taphria and their chariots
      Highborn Elves- Queens’ Marines - Riding lions, of course!
      Infernal Dwarves- Infernal Traders considered Businessmen like Chinese nowadays in Africa.
      Saurian Ancients- Nsisiboko - Home of the Mokèlé-mbèmbé and other dinosaurs
      Sylvan Elves- Exiled Elves - Recent immigrants, the naive life of Tarzan
      Undying Dynasties- Already a Taphrian factionSearching the fabulous Elephants' graveyard
      Warriors of the Dark Gods- Hakim - Men in Blue, nomads of the desert, razzias
      Empire of Sonnstahl?- Sagarika Traders – consideredSindbad the sailor, Ghandi born in South Africa
      Empire of Sonnstahl?- Tsuandan Fleet – consideredExploration by Zheng_He incredible fleet

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    • Yeaaaaah………

      Well.....

      As said, I don't think Daemons need a special adaptation. Saurians neither.

      Same thing for those that are just basically outsiders factions, such as Dread and Highborn Elves.

      Warriors could wait until the Makhar Raiders AB, since the Hakim are also a mounted culture (except they use more Camels).

      I think the truly original factions that we have remaining are Beasts, Sylvans, and Vosenlanders.
      But I can't say I'm much inspired, lol :)

      Any ideas welcome.
      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
      First T9A player in West Africa