The post was edited 1 time, last by Gomio ().
The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.
Equipment is an upgrade for the unit, not the models in the unit. It has a variable cost based on the number of models in the unit, but you buy it for the unit.
It could possibly use being clearer; this would be a good thing to bring up with the... lectoring? team.
But yeah, those were rules for characters either not being in BB units, or being stuffed into small BB units.
We were having a conversation, and as it turned out, as a wee lads everyone was just picking whatever options there were in the unit description and mashing them together. I think it should be clarifier, you know, for the kids.
Well with 2.05 pretty much wrapped up I guess it's time to start talking about the Armybook Redoo?
I just got into infernal dwarfs, played against them many times, but have not had a game yet as I just orderd my models. I do have a converted disciple of lugar I painted 3 years ago and a few russian alternative models so I got my foot in the door!
So right off the bat, feel free to critique my post, tell me I'm wrong or out to lunch, etc... as my view really is the inexperienced view with no ties to the previous fluff or whatever.
First thing I did was read through the book and then compare it to books with similar play-styles and unit entries. Namely Orcs and Goblins and Dwarf Holds.
I found the external rules and points balance to be quite bad. Obviously Dwarf Holds gets a slight reduction in points per model because they can only get Dwarves and don't have access to a horde of 50 goblins and Orc slaves with insignificant, or cav. But the bigger problems lies with the racial traits. DH gets shield wall and Sturdy. 5+ Aegis vs flaming is obvious not even close in points to Shield Wall. I'd say it's not even points worthy and is just a fluffy rule.
From what I've seen the strengths of the ID book is to take a mixed list of units. You gotta take them all, slaves, goblins, foot Dwarves, Taurkus, Kadims, etc... and match those units against your opponents. Otherwise there is no point in going ID because the other two books do the all goblins, all foot dwarves style better. This is fine for the competitive external balance stand point, but severely lacking in the fun listbuilding catagory. Fielding an all foot infernal dwarf army shouldn't be as good as Dwarf Holds but it shouldn't feel like it's so bad that you'll never do it. This is where the racial traits and aspects come to mind.
Sturdy, Shield Wall, the +4 misfire for artillery. Those are all pretty huge bonus's. And the Infernal Dwarf equivalent is 5+ vs fire and battlefocus on 2nd round?
1) Infernal Armour grants 6+ aegis save vs non-mundane attacks. So divine, magical, fire, etc... And for fluffy you get to re-roll failed aegis vs flaming. Could restrict this to only close combat but that would need testing.
What this does it gives the dwarf units a better role to engage the more elite opponents. While also giving the hobgoblins and slave a role to engage the mundane opponents. And most importantly it's only a 6+ aegis. 6+ has enough variance that it can be points costed fairly low and having a further restriction that it be non-mundane makes it even less costly. Against divine they have to re-roll successful which makes it worth even less.
So a fun fluffy rule that gives a bit of a edge in the right circumstances.
Edit: ya know, maybe shield wall needs to be nerfed into just being +1or +2 to armour. That way the dwarves would actually be able to make 3+ armour saves. And then it could also be given to Infernal dwarves. It's kind of a cop out to say that "oh because of Alchemy spell you can't do that" ...spells pay for themselves through the cost of taking the Wizard. And shield wall is still negated for opponents hitting flanks and rears. I'm sure this was discussed a long time ago and rejected - this is just my ramblings.
2) Give them Sturdy. Just the foot dwarfs. Unless of course the normal Dwarf Holds is going to lose sturdy, then it doesn't matter.
3) Battlefocus - I would remove the restriction of 2nd round only. Let battlfocus be the Infernal Dwarf Trait. I think it also works fine with sturdy. Fluff wise, instead of going more defensive like their Dwarf Hold cousins do with shield wall, the Infernal Dwarfs get a bit more bloodthristy. ...kind of stealing this from Dread Elves and Highborn Elves. Good = Defense, Bad = Offense. Typical Fantasy trope but it fits.
4) Infernal Weapon - currently it feels like a crutch. Not much reason to take great weapons over infernal weapons.
Any suggestion would have to be massively tested.
Maybe make 'infernal weapon' an upgrade to existing mundane weapons? Perhaps a unique rule like +1 to wound. This would make other weapon options more viable like the great weapon and would give some difference between immortals and DH's Deepwatch/Kingsguard.
It might make the unit entry text a bit long but that's not a problem for Warriors of the Dark Gods so it shouldn't be an issue here.
+1 to wound might sound OP but it really depends. It would be an upgrade for points which makes you have less models on the table. If you spam foot dwarfs then you have even less models. So an opponent who faces off against this and has toughness as a strength in their army would only have to deal with a small amount of dwarfs. And if the ID player takes a mixed army then it comes down to deployment and unit matchups(which is good).
5) Weapon Options - DH get loads of options for their troops. How come ID get hand weapon, great weapon and that's it? Where is the paired weapons? Halberds? Spears? etc... Obviously balance and role is an issue, Hobgoblins have access to spears. Flintlock axe is a neutered halberd(I'm all for less AP in the game). I'd like to at least see paired weapons be an options for Warriors, Guard, Immortals. But, I understand that it might detract from hobgoblins and orc slaves(although I don't see alot of paired weapons being taken on orc slaves).
5) Immortals - take a look at the Iron Orc unit entry. WIth born to fight, they are basically immortals on a 25x25 base for alot cheaper and the option to switch weapons. If your current army consists of Hobgoblins and Immortals then you should just play O&G.
I just watned to add a bit of weight in the need for the #1-4 suggestions. The foot infernal dwarves need some special stuff to be different for the sake of external balance.
5) Add in a Raged weapon for the Engineer - Call it the Infernal Rocket. Maybe something like D3 shots, D3+2 strength and AP. Just be creative. Literally anything would be good that lets him get a pot-shot off while baby sitting artillery.
6) Artillery - Now this is where DH, ID, O&G NEED TO BE designed together. Obviously this is a hornets nest to balance these 1 hit wonder weapons
Dwarf Holds get +4 on the missfire chart. O&G get Orc Overseer. Infernal Dwarves get bound demon? The power skew and fluff here are just all over the place.
Infernal Dwarves paying ALOT of points for unbreakable with some extra stats for some artillery that can still missfire or randomly move and not shoot.
Gameplay Role wise we can just take an actual beefed up unit from the Bound Demons section if we want a close combat monster.
I'm sure people with more experience have better suggestions than I do for bound demon. Tactially I'd like to see the Bound Demon be able to advance move and shoot. This would give it some tactical flexibility and eventually inch it's way towards a viable combat.
Infernal Artillery: ....look at Dwarf Holds Artillery then look at Infernal Artillery. ....it's just bad.
I get that DH needs bonus's because of the other restrictions in it's army. Their extra runes are fine but the Engineering rune I think is OP. Engineering characters already let you re-roll a misfire result, so I would nerf that in the DH book to only a +2 on the misfire chart.
Then copy the engineering rune into the Infernal Artillery, give option to upgrade to flaming. Easy fix.
Fluff wise I would add in a Hobgoblin Apprentice rule that lets you chose "Malfunction" result on the first missfire, one use only. Optional upgrade on Infernal Artillery - lets you have a bit of a choice between upgrading to a demon or stay as Artillery and be a bit more reliable.
Gunnery Teams - auto-include. HobGob Apprentice is pretty cool and makes these things a bit reliable, these things typically hit on 5's and 6's anyway. I'd like to model a hobgoblin on my gunnery teams(gonna do it regardless).
7) Kadim Titan
Needs 8 wounds. Anything on big bases seriously needs beefy stats. Specifically in regards to wounds.
Searing rage divine attacks against Aegis(2+, Against Flaming Attacks) needs to be divine attacks against Aegis(X+, Against Flaming Attacks). Why does Basalt Infusion get a free pass?
Fun/Fluff: Kadim Titan needs to be a mount option for Chosen of Lugar. C'mon!
...maybe save this for Lugar Auxiliary book where you can also have Kadim Incarnates as mounts for Disciples of Lugar.
8) Disciples of Lugar
Obviously points is a big issue here. Just compare to Dwarf Seekers. Sure the Disciples get better Aegis save. Volcanic Embarce is roughly equal to yer'commin' with me. And like I said before the points for DH get a discount because they are restricted for unit types. But an 8 point difference for a great weapon?
Auto-include great weapon with no points increase. Issue solved. No swapping for paired weapon.
Disciples and Seekers can be similar. I personally think Seekers should scrap the 'bigger they are....' and just get increased movement like the Disciples.
9) Flamming synergies. With Army books getting enchantment items in their own books instead of main rulebook maybe Infernal dwarfs get a special flaming banner that has 2 uses instead of one use only or a 0-1 options for an eternal flaming banner that can be turned on and off by using up a a veil token. ...begining of your magic phase you use a veil token to turn the flaming banner on and it remains on until your next magic phase? ...sounds balanced and involves some choice in tactics.
Other than this I don't have much suggestion regarding magic items as it's really not my thing.
As I said above, feel free to critique, comment, etc... It's just a suggestion post and is heavily reliant on designing Dwarf Holds, O&G, Infernal Dwarfs together.
Edit: random thought:
Prophet mounted on an infernal engine where he can channel the pyro magic through the engine and do some crazy pyro magic!
He must also have guitar. ...a guitar axe. ...a flaming guitar axe!
Maybe play Johny Cash Burning Ring of Fire, or Disco Inferno if your dwarves are the older aesthetic.
ya! ...make it happen RT!
The post was edited 2 times, last by Peacemaker ().
I was reading this thread for homebrew Dwarf Holds. The changes the guy makes are pretty solid and balanced with a few works in progress.
Dwarven Holds Armybook re-done
I think Infernal Dwarfs can use the Stone Grit rule since it replaces Sturdy. And it solves ALOT of issues with the low agility while providing incentives for charging.
And it makes space for Infernal weapons to be an enchantment for mundane weapons to get the +1 to wound.
The post was edited 1 time, last by Peacemaker ().