Pinned Rules: Short Question - Short Answer (version 2.0)

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  • Eisenheinrich wrote:

    Lagerlof wrote:

    They ignore the Mongrels during the overrun. If they roll enough they charge. If they can, with one wheel and closing the gap, clear the mongrels it's a legal charge.
    Did some PowerPoint magic ;) :Bild.jpg
    The red rectangle marks the boundary rectangle of the minos before the overrun.
    The blue rectangle marks the minos' position after a maximum wheel until they touch the unit in the forest.
    The yellow rectangle marks their position after aligning to the unit in the forest.

    As the yellow rectangle overlaps the mongrels, and as the unit in the forest cannot align towards the minos either to allow them to be placed, this would be an impossible charge (besides, since its a friendly unit blocking the charge, the rules for blocked path don't apply either).

    So without the mongrels overrunning as well, the minos won't make it in.

    If the mongrels overrun, they could try to clip the corner as Lagerlof suggested:

    Bild2.jpg
    red rectangle = boundary rectangle before overrun
    blue rectangle = boundary rectangle after overrun, clipping the corner, aligning as far as possible until touching the upper left unit.

    In this position, the mongrels would overlap the minos, so they cannot move to that position (besides, even if they could, they would force the unit in the forest to align towards them, which would move that unit out of the minos' overrun corridor).

    So if the mongrels overrun and charge, they would have to charge the unit in the forest more or less dead centre which means that the minos wouldn't be able to charge either.

    So, tldr, I can't think of a way how to get the minos to overrun into the enemy unit in this situation ;) .
    Did you try mongrel charges that don't go as far as possible, just go far enough to allow the minotaurs to clear? ie, what's the farthest along the orc unit's facing that they can contact and close the door (ie, miss the other unit). Is it far enough to get out of the minotaurs way?
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • When do you close the door on a flying charge?

    Unit of Tomb Reapers charging a corner of a Plague Disciple unit engaged with Skeleton Warriors. To charge the corner he wants, the moment he touches the Disciples, he is over the Skeletons.

    Does he land, then close, or close, then land?


    Find me on Twitter! - twitter.com/SkavenInAZ
  • SkavenInAZ wrote:

    When do you close the door on a flying charge?

    Unit of Tomb Reapers charging a corner of a Plague Disciple unit engaged with Skeleton Warriors. To charge the corner he wants, the moment he touches the Disciples, he is over the Skeletons.

    Does he land, then close, or close, then land?
    You can fly while closing
    Rules Questions?

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  • Adam wrote:

    WarX wrote:

    Adam wrote:

    WarX wrote:

    Regarding War Maxhines: what does it mean maximalising contact with round base?

    From perspective of geometry there is only one way rectangle unit can maximise contact with round base: by placing front facing tangential to round base in point of contact. But I see nobody plays it like this...
    Well that is even specified in the rulebook section 3.C.d
    No it's not. Lack of keyword tangential makes it very unclear. Also in description of War Machine it is not clear what actually means maximising contact with round base.For me there is no place for interpretations based on geometrical properties of contact between square and circle. But it is not reflected in the rules.

    Also figure 6 is not very helpfull as it shows most trivial maximised contact: rectangle unit wider then round base with tangential touch.
    The only way you can be in contact with a circle and not on it is to be tangential to it.
    This statement is not true ;)

    This is just special case: when charging unit is wider then round base you have to be tangential. If charger is not, you can corner-touch circle. And as I already pointed out - there is no rule allowing or forbidding corner touch.
  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    Did you try mongrel charges that don't go as far as possible, just go far enough to allow the minotaurs to clear? ie, what's the farthest along the orc unit's facing that they can contact and close the door (ie, miss the other unit). Is it far enough to get out of the minotaurs way?
    I assume you're referring to something like this:

    Bild1.jpg

    The dashed red rectangle shows the farthest position the mongrels can reach without touching the other unit when aligning towards the enemy unit. This would leave enough space for the minotaurs to clear the mongrels and overrun into the unit in the forest.

    That should work I guess. Since the rules for combined charges also apply to charges from overruns/pursuits, the mongels would have to maximise contact though, so the overall positioning would be like this:

    Bild2.jpg
  • youngseward wrote:

    How does the sacrifice work with a unit with a war platform? Are the wounds distributed? It just says the unit “loses x health points”
    The errata help with that ;) :
    <
    The Sacrifice (page 10)
    Add the bold text and remove the crossed out text:

    The chosen unit loses X Health Points suffers X hits that wound automatically with Armour Penetration 10 and Magical Attacks and with no saves of any kind allowed, where X is determined by the Discipline value of the largest fraction of models in the unit, ignoring all Discipline modifiers.
    >
    So it's treated like any other type of ranged attack (and the owner of the occultism wizards gets to distribute the hits).
  • WarX wrote:

    Adam wrote:

    WarX wrote:

    Adam wrote:

    WarX wrote:

    Regarding War Maxhines: what does it mean maximalising contact with round base?

    From perspective of geometry there is only one way rectangle unit can maximise contact with round base: by placing front facing tangential to round base in point of contact. But I see nobody plays it like this...
    Well that is even specified in the rulebook section 3.C.d
    No it's not. Lack of keyword tangential makes it very unclear. Also in description of War Machine it is not clear what actually means maximising contact with round base.For me there is no place for interpretations based on geometrical properties of contact between square and circle. But it is not reflected in the rules.
    Also figure 6 is not very helpfull as it shows most trivial maximised contact: rectangle unit wider then round base with tangential touch.
    The only way you can be in contact with a circle and not on it is to be tangential to it.
    This statement is not true ;)
    This is just special case: when charging unit is wider then round base you have to be tangential. If charger is not, you can corner-touch circle. And as I already pointed out - there is no rule allowing or forbidding corner touch.
    What exactly is the rules issue here?

    <
    3.C.d Interactions with Round Bases
    Units are considered in base contact with a model on a round base if their Unit Boundaries are in contact.
    Models are considered to be in base contact with a model on a round base if all of the following conditions are met:
    • Their units are in base contact.
    • The Unit Boundary of the model on a round base is directly in front of them.
    • There aren’t any models in between them.


    21.A.a.39 War Machine
    When a unit Charges a War Machine on a round base, it can move into base contact by having its Front Facing contact
    any point of the War Machine’s base (it must still maximise the number of models in base contact, see “Contact
    between Objects ”, page 11 and figure 31 , page 68 ). No align move is allowed.
    >

    So when charging a war machine you must make sure that the charging unit's boundary rectangle touches the war machine (duh ;) ) and that as many charging models as possible have the round base directly in front of them.
  • @Eisenheinrich The problem here is... geometry. If charging unit is not wider then round base, then you can maximise contact corner touch choosing arbitrary angle. If charging unit is wider, then maximalising enforces tangential touch.

    In contrary when corner-to-corner charge is made only available angle is multiply of 90°.

    Why I consider this important: when small cowboy (eg. 25x50) charges 60mm War Machine he can not only pick angle he charges the War Machine (obeying charge rules) but also can pick any point on half of the circle.

    If tangential touch was mandatory, then desired angle determines point of touch (on War Machine) and vice-versa - point where you want to touch round base determines angle you need to take.
  • WarX wrote:

    @Eisenheinrich The problem here is... geometry. If charging unit is not wider then round base, then you can maximise contact corner touch choosing arbitrary angle. If charging unit is wider, then maximalising enforces tangential touch.

    In contrary when corner-to-corner charge is made only available angle is multiply of 90°.

    Why I consider this important: when small cowboy (eg. 25x50) charges 60mm War Machine he can not only pick angle he charges the War Machine (obeying charge rules) but also can pick any point on half of the circle.

    If tangential touch was mandatory, then desired angle determines point of touch (on War Machine) and vice-versa - point where you want to touch round base determines angle you need to take.
    There is no problem ;) , RAW corresponds to RAI.

    Single model units simply move into contact with the war machine. Usually this means that the war machine will be directly in front of them (unless their front corner is barely touching the round base), so all conditions are met.

    For units with more than one model in the front rank, their front facing will usually have to be tangent to the round base (possibly unless they are 2 models wide and they have small bases).
  • Eisenheinrich wrote:

    WarX wrote:

    @Eisenheinrich The problem here is... geometry. If charging unit is not wider then round base, then you can maximise contact corner touch choosing arbitrary angle. If charging unit is wider, then maximalising enforces tangential touch.

    In contrary when corner-to-corner charge is made only available angle is multiply of 90°.

    Why I consider this important: when small cowboy (eg. 25x50) charges 60mm War Machine he can not only pick angle he charges the War Machine (obeying charge rules) but also can pick any point on half of the circle.

    If tangential touch was mandatory, then desired angle determines point of touch (on War Machine) and vice-versa - point where you want to touch round base determines angle you need to take.
    There is no problem ;) , RAW corresponds to RAI.
    Single model units simply move into contact with the war machine. Usually this means that the war machine will be directly in front of them (unless their front corner is barely touching the round base), so all conditions are met.

    For units with more than one model in the front rank, their front facing will usually have to be tangent to the round base (possibly unless they are 2 models wide and they have small bases).
    OK. And is this desired interaction or just accidental side-effect of rule wording?

    Also why there is no consistency between corner-to-corner and corner-to-round situations?
  • Lagerlof wrote:

    SkavenInAZ wrote:

    When do you close the door on a flying charge?

    Unit of Tomb Reapers charging a corner of a Plague Disciple unit engaged with Skeleton Warriors. To charge the corner he wants, the moment he touches the Disciples, he is over the Skeletons.

    Does he land, then close, or close, then land?
    You can fly while closing
    I'm gonna have to go back on this. Seems it's not the case anymore.


    We'll discuss it internally :D
    Rules Questions?

    ETC 2016 - Referee
    ETC 2017 Warm-up Herford - Head Judge
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    ETC 2018 - Team Sweden - Ogre Khans
    ETC 2019 - Team Sweden

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Lagerlof ().

  • WarX wrote:

    OK. And is this desired interaction or just accidental side-effect of rule wording?
    Also why there is no consistency between corner-to-corner and corner-to-round situations?
    Yes, as I said, RAI = RAW.

    And I don't see the inconsistency you refer to - other than the fact that round bases have a different shape than rectangular bases and thus warrant different rules ;) .

    If you would like to discuss this topic any further, please create a separate thread as I feel this is going beyond actual rules- related questions.
  • Just as a point of clarification: During the entire deployment phase per rule 10.c on pg 37 All characters count as a single unit during the deployment phase and must all be deployed during the same deployment turn.

    Does that also apply for scout deployments and vanguard moves since both of these phases are part of the deployment phase?

    I.E. if I have 2 scouting characters that declare I will be deploying as scouts do I have to deploy them both at the same time during the scout phase or do I alternate drops with my opponent?

    Same with vanguard do multiple vanguarding characters have to make their vanguard moves at the same time if I choose to vanguard them?
  • Lagerlof wrote:

    Lagerlof wrote:

    SkavenInAZ wrote:

    When do you close the door on a flying charge?

    Unit of Tomb Reapers charging a corner of a Plague Disciple unit engaged with Skeleton Warriors. To charge the corner he wants, the moment he touches the Disciples, he is over the Skeletons.

    Does he land, then close, or close, then land?
    You can fly while closing
    I'm gonna have to go back on this. Seems it's not the case anymore.

    We'll discuss it internally :D
    Never mind.

    Align is part of the charge move, it's very clear if I bother to read the entire rule.

    "These moves are considered part of the Charge Move.."

    Love the fact that 4 different people wrote to me on messenger or PM here instantly :P
    Rules Questions?

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  • irvingberlin wrote:

    Just as a point of clarification: During the entire deployment phase per rule 10.c on pg 37 All characters count as a single unit during the deployment phase and must all be deployed during the same deployment turn.

    Does that also apply for scout deployments and vanguard moves since both of these phases are part of the deployment phase?

    I.E. if I have 2 scouting characters that declare I will be deploying as scouts do I have to deploy them both at the same time during the scout phase or do I alternate drops with my opponent?

    Same with vanguard do multiple vanguarding characters have to make their vanguard moves at the same time if I choose to vanguard them?
    10.C pertains to step 2 of the deployment phase sequence. Scout allows models/units to "be deployed using Special Deployment rules", which overrides the general rules for (character) deployment. So 2 scouting characters will count as 2 separate scouting units.
    And if you have two vanguarding characters, they count as two separate vanguarding units (unless they are both part of the same combined unit, in which case they count as a single unit, even if they leave the unit during their vanguard move).