Dread Elves 2.0 Beta Armybook

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  • Altao wrote:

    Klaudel wrote:

    Altar would be the main offender in my book. Maybe not OP but underpriced for sure. The design should push more into "better core, less altar-dependent" territory to improve the internal en external balance of DE.
    Do something similar as VS got with pendulum, so you cannot take it with e.g. Vermin Guard or Rats-at-Arms?
    The Pendulum has already taken quite a few nerf bats and is still kickin...

    At least it has had consistency in Rules since day 1 which I can't say for the Altar which makes it therefore a bit more of a different beast in terms of balancing...
  • KiRaHyuU wrote:

    Altao wrote:

    Klaudel wrote:

    Altar would be the main offender in my book. Maybe not OP but underpriced for sure. The design should push more into "better core, less altar-dependent" territory to improve the internal en external balance of DE.
    Do something similar as VS got with pendulum, so you cannot take it with e.g. Vermin Guard or Rats-at-Arms?
    The Pendulum has already taken quite a few nerf bats and is still kickin...
    At least it has had consistency in Rules since day 1 which I can't say for the Altar which makes it therefore a bit more of a different beast in terms of balancing...
    I mean something like was Altar in previous game (only few units can join it or only same Cult unit can do that).

    Forget it... :(
    Current armies:
    WDG - Waiting for better times
    VC

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  • Daedalus wrote:

    Klaudel wrote:

    Ok, let's then tear apart those myths that Hydra is better than Kraken:
    - against T3 as 5+ infantry: Hydra inflicts ca 10 wounds when using breath weapon, ca 7 without, Kraken ca 6w, so the real difference comes from the bw which is one use only item as everybody knows,
    - against t4 as 4+ infantry: Kraken still 6w, Hydra 8w with the bw, 6w without.

    Against anything better re infantry and against heavy cavalry and multiple hp models Kraken is straight better.

    Re survivabilty: regen is a little better than hard target and distracting but not that much.

    Kraken can also be postitoned more freely on the battlefield. One failed charge or reckless postioning of Hydra and you are in some danger. Re Kraken - not so much. Everybody will think twice before charging him due to his high S multiple wounds.

    So my verdict is: Kraken will still be played at 390-400 points, Hydra at 430-440 - not so much. :)
    Hydra does 1.66 more Wounds than Kraken against T3 WS4 AS5+ or worse without using BW, 5.5 more when using BW (your numbers round down for the Hydra twice, missing out on one average Wound caused overall, and round up for the Kraken). That is a significant number, particularly when the Hydra will take dramatically less damage in return from all non-Flaming sources of damage. Admittedly, both will win combat eternally against such units barring Great Weapons, but the Hydra will grind through 25 models 1-2 combat phases faster than the Kraken.Against T4 4+, your numbers appear to be straight-up wrong. Hydra should do 4.53 Wounds after armour without Breath Weapon, 6.75 Wounds with Breath Weapon, while the Kraken does 5.14 Wounds. Hydra again takes far less damage from all non-flaming sources than Kraken (Against S4 Off 4, AP1 the Hydra takes one Wound per 18 attacks while the Kraken takes one per 13.5 attacks, meaning the Hydra is a full 33% more durable. And that's a good case for the Kraken. How about a fight against Swordmasters? Here the Hydra takes one Wound per 5.76 attacks while the Kraken suffers a wound per 3.6 attacks, meaning the Hydra is a full 66% more durable).

    Also, the instant you take away Stomp the numbers flow back in favour of the Hydra. Kraken struggles to do more than 2 Wounds to, say, Dark Raiders, while Hydra knocks out around 4.

    In the end, both do what they're supposed to do. Kraken deals well with durable targets and crushes multiwound models, Hydra grinds out infantry and does a huge damage spike when it pulls out the Breath Weapon. Hydra's greater durability is what makes it more expensive, and the reason the Kraken sees more play is that DE have lots of tools for mulching infantry but far fewer for dealing with T6+ monsters. IE, the Kraken fills a gap in the army while the Hydra has to compete with Tower Guard and even Core like Spearmen for its primary role. Hell, even DJs aren't big fans of fighting T6+ monsters, and wind up closer to the Hydra on comparison. Realistically, Kraken should sit around the 390-400 point range and Hydra should be at roughly 430. And if Hunting Chariots were a viable option for countering multi-Wound high-T monsters (fingers crossed), Krakens might become a bit less of a must-have which could open space for lists using Hydras as brick-breakers and shooting to counter Monsters.
    Yeah I counted in the memory. Maybe I rounded something in my favor not even knowing :).
    But bottom line is that they can both grind and Kraken is better against anything else. So he is just more universal than Hydra. His freedom of positioning is also something that support this choice. If anything they should be both priced equally.
    We can't stop here. This is bat country.
  • Do realize it took a lot of buff effort to make us take the Kraken over the Hydra in all those editions at all. Now they finally succeeded they might easily re-set it because now it is used (like what DarkSky argued).

    I can see the argument about the Altar BSB, however I do not agree it is an auto-include at all. It has been nerfed already (priest less attacks / less deadly combo) while Death Trance has been a great idea for how to make our core viable. What Glonojad said, they are many more other sort of lists people play with that does not include altars because it takes the spot of other sort of BSB / Characters. A bit more expensive no problem but thats it.

    Overall the best buff to make our book mediocre (and therefore balanced) was that we got cheaper and thus space for a unit more. Making us more expensive again (spears) would negate this.

    If you balance things, why don't you buff the worst options and nerf the overpowered ones (only Medusa might therefore get buffed + some magic items) but overall as army we are at the place 'balance' wants us, so why do you want to destroy your product that you have so long worked for to create (to find the balance).

    How can you ever find balance when you will always keep unbalancing things.

    If you want people to take the Kraken less, do not nerf it, but instead buff the hunting chariot a little (24") so more people take that option instead. OK 400 for a kraken might be still worth it, but all those higher prices might unbalance us yet again.
    Follow the adventures of Lord Drakon on his ferocious dragon Luna at: XIII Legion Dragonblog

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Lord Drakon ().

  • Lord Drakon wrote:


    If you want people to take the Kraken less, do not nerf it, but instead buff the hunting chariot a little (24") so more people take that option instead. OK 300 for a kraken might be still worth it, but all those higher prices might unbalance us yet again.
    So...let's premise this with simply Kraken under 400pts hence the nerf what and this argument over :)
  • Lord Drakon wrote:


    I can see the argument about the Altar BSB, however I do not agree it is an auto-include at all. It has been nerfed already (priest less attacks / less deadly combo) while Death Trance has been a great idea for how to make our core viable. What Glonojad said, they are many more other sort of lists people play with that does not include altars because it takes the spot of other sort of BSB / Characters. A bit more expensive no problem but thats it.

    If you balance things, why don't you buff the worst options and nerf the overpowered ones (only Medusa might therefore get buffed + some magic items) but overall as army we are at the place 'balance' wants us, so why do you want to destroy your product that you have so long worked for to create (to find the balance).

    How can you ever find balance when you will always keep unbalancing things.

    If you want people to take the Kraken less, do not nerf it, but instead buff the hunting chariot a little (24") so more people take that option instead. OK 300 for a kraken might be still worth it, but all those higher prices might unbalance us yet again.
    I've played games with the BSB Altar. I've played games with no Altar at all. As far as I can tell, the BSB riding an Altar is still an auto-include. If anything the Altar itself is better than ever, and if you give the Priest Moraec's Reaping she's exactly as powerful as ever in melee. Or just don't, because the riders and the Avatar and the impact hits already made up 80% of the model's damage output. The 'nerf' of taking away one attack and one WS pretty much did nothing at all, especially since the final package is now cheaper and arguably higher-impact.

    If we only buff things that are outrageously overpowered and only nerf things that are underpowered to the point of total uselessness, we'll wind up running the same lists forever. Internal balance is currently not great; improving it via small buff/nerf cycles should be a priority of the beta. Hell, it is a beta. If it turns out we overnerfed something we can always just revert the cost increase, or find a good middle ground, in the next cycle of changes two months down the line. And as long as all changes to points cost are small (+/- 10% at most) we won't be totally destroying external balance either. Especially if everybody else is experiencing a similar gradual shift to even out the bumps. A slow, steady cycle of change in the direction of a healthy middle ground should be the design goal.

    You ask how to find balance when changes unbalance things. I ask how you can ever find balance without changing anything at all?

    And saying that nerfs are wrong and the only way to improve balance is buffs... Yeah, that was GW's MO. All that does is generate horrifying power creep that smashes any semblance of balance into tiny pieces. It's why I've put no stock in the rallying cry of 'Don't nerf the HbE, buff everyone else to that level!'. What if you overdo it, and now VS is the new best book? Do we just buff every other book to that level, and then again and again ad nauseum until everyone quits in disgust?
  • You are right about Moreac Reaping ofcourse, Hero's Heart also lets us negate the low attacks. It (Moreac) does prevent you from taking a good banner or ring of shadows though.

    I also no fan of buffing armies and not nerfing armies as you indeed create this cycle.

    I do not see why armies overall should be nerfed, if you nerf the OP things (Rhyma) you solve the problem right without having to touch too many other things.

    Whatever you do, there will be top tier, middle tier and lower tier. If you can get them close around the centre though you have accomplished your mission. Skill is much more important than a power level.

    I like the approach of small 10% changes and small buffs or nerfs to balance things out.

    But if this balancing is build around "this is what everybody takes so it is OP" you have a never ending cyclus of balancing / changing rules several times each year. This is too much change for the average player that want stability.

    For example, they have done an amazing job on the common magical items. Thousand complements on how they balanced that with leaving ring of fire, bluffers helm, skullsplitter etc. Nothing too OP, nothing useless. You have to make tough choices based on what you want. This is great, this is now balanced.

    If they would again change it because several things might be taken more, whats the point? You have succeeded already, there is no need for constant change and growth when the result is good already.
    Follow the adventures of Lord Drakon on his ferocious dragon Luna at: XIII Legion Dragonblog

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Lord Drakon ().

  • Well yesterday it came for the first time to put my dread elves and maybe highborn elves on sale and buy another army that does not piss me off.

    Strangely I have so much fun with other armies that arent over or under powered and two are actually enough but "alle guten Dinge sind drei".
    Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

    Playing: The Bad Beards (ID) Das Tribe (OnGs) (links lead to my threads about the army/lists)
    Soon: Saurian Ancients and Undying Dynasties
  • I mentioned the Altar BSB in a Feedback post.

    Suffice it to say it’s cheaper to take an Altar BSB than it is to take a Captain BSB and a Special Altar, and the Altar BSB has better defence. If you’re taking an Altar (and you should) it’s much more efficient to do it this way.

    There are three actions needed to address:

    1) Make the Altar mount the same price as the special one
    2) Reduce the cost of the Priest to compensate
    3) Discount the price of the Captain to reflect the fact that a r3 a3 s4 6+ as model isn’t worth 155 points.

    1) will definitely happen, 2) will most likely happen, 3) most certainly won’t because something something legacy.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • Cult Legate:
    1. Costs 180 (Nabh) or 190 (Yema) points.
    2. Does not have access to special mundane equipment
    3. Does not have access to specialized magical equipment (half exception Moraec's Reaping)
    4. Cannot cast spells
    5. Cannot fight
    6. Cannot tank
    7. Grants minor buff to joined unit
    How much points do you think this model is worth? If that model was incapable of carrying the Battle Standard, I'd say less than 90 points and even at 90 points I doubt I would use it.
    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/
  • well I disagree. the "minor buff" is not so minor. you get more profit than with a combat captain if you place the legate in an appropriately big cultist unit.

    The real problem is about carrying aditionnal buff items. But that goes for all bsbs. I would gladly take a naked legate just for the turn it would be usefull. (if I could spare the points for a non super killy, non bsb, non wizard character) I will try it in my next game. With this build

    cult priest; bsb; rending banner; dragon staff

    On the corner of a 30 blades horde (dancer would be much better but they don't fit in that army). The blades are so easy to kill the priest becomes tanky. And on the corner of a horde there won't be so many models to hit her.
    I think the problem is mostly about points
  • bunch of tourny results just came in.
    there is a DE list that is dominating the tourny scene.

    it has:

    cult priest with beastmasters lash
    cult priest with pendant of distain
    BSB captain on pegasus

    core is msu of legionnaires with hand weapon shield.

    2x 10 Raven cloaks with paired weapons

    hunting chariots
    one unit of 15 harpies
    10 tower guard with legion standard
    3 medusas


    wooooaaboy! This list is hardcore OP!
    everyone is taking it so the BLT sandwich team should nerf it.

    P.S. Don't forget the cheese on that sandwich
  • umbranar wrote:

    aka: altar, cosmology oracle, double acolytes, Judge Dread, Dancers, Banner of Blood, Dark Raiders and spearmen?
    No not at all. I said extensively, not every viable choice. :D sorry i only am able to look very sporadically in this thread since I’m learning for the whole day. Not much time for breaks atm. So I missed that one! BoB can’t get really expensive anymore atm. These are situational extra attacks only the first rank profits from. For example execs; 8 models „could profit“ if they charge. This means as it stands now this is a price increase of 6.25 points per model of you only count for 8. let’s say you’d take 16 - this still would be 3.125 ppm for a situational extra attack. And thus would only be for one unit. And even one without swiftstride. Would you pay that price if it wasn’t a banner? But included in the models cost? If it was even higher??? I’m not so sure about that. Look at the masters lists and look how many people really take BoB. I don’t think it’s vastly underpriced or OP and thus disagree with @DarkSky which is a pretty rare occasion I must admit :D
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    bunch of tourny results just came in.
    there is a DE list that is dominating the tourny scene.

    it has:

    cult priest with beastmasters lash
    cult priest with pendant of distain
    BSB captain on pegasus

    core is msu of legionnaires with hand weapon shield.

    2x 10 Raven cloaks with paired weapons

    hunting chariots
    one unit of 15 harpies
    10 tower guard with legion standard
    3 medusas


    wooooaaboy! This list is hardcore OP!
    everyone is taking it so the BLT sandwich team should nerf it.

    P.S. Don't forget the cheese on that sandwich
    I can't decide between 8| and :P .
    I think the problem is mostly about points
  • noir wrote:

    umbranar wrote:

    aka: altar, cosmology oracle, double acolytes, Judge Dread, Dancers, Banner of Blood, Dark Raiders and spearmen?
    No not at all. I said extensively, not every viable choice. :D sorry i only am able to look very sporadically in this thread since I’m learning for the whole day. Not much time for breaks atm. So I missed that one! BoB can’t get really expensive anymore atm. These are situational extra attacks only the first rank profits from. For example execs; 8 models „could profit“ if they charge. This means as it stands now this is a price increase of 6.25 points per model of you only count for 8. let’s say you’d take 16 - this still would be 3.125 ppm for a situational extra attack. And thus would only be for one unit. And even one without swiftstride. Would you pay that price if it wasn’t a banner? But included in the models cost? If it was even higher??? I’m not so sure about that. Look at the masters lists and look how many people really take BoB. I don’t think it’s vastly underpriced or OP and thus disagree with @DarkSky which is a pretty rare occasion I must admit :D
    I would pay for Dread Knights with 2 attacks, sure :p
    :UD_bw: :EoS: :DE:
  • umbranar wrote:

    noir wrote:

    umbranar wrote:

    aka: altar, cosmology oracle, double acolytes, Judge Dread, Dancers, Banner of Blood, Dark Raiders and spearmen?
    No not at all. I said extensively, not every viable choice. :D sorry i only am able to look very sporadically in this thread since I’m learning for the whole day. Not much time for breaks atm. So I missed that one! BoB can’t get really expensive anymore atm. These are situational extra attacks only the first rank profits from. For example execs; 8 models „could profit“ if they charge. This means as it stands now this is a price increase of 6.25 points per model of you only count for 8. let’s say you’d take 16 - this still would be 3.125 ppm for a situational extra attack. And thus would only be for one unit. And even one without swiftstride. Would you pay that price if it wasn’t a banner? But included in the models cost? If it was even higher??? I’m not so sure about that. Look at the masters lists and look how many people really take BoB. I don’t think it’s vastly underpriced or OP and thus disagree with @DarkSky which is a pretty rare occasion I must admit :D
    I would pay for Dread Knights with 2 attacks, sure :p
    Yeah though 2 attacks are not Situation plus: DK are 25mm wide so most of the times would be 5 models wide. More does most of the time not make any sense. This would be assuming you take 10 models a 5 point increase per model. They’re 50 ppm iirc? This would be 55 ppm then or 60 if you only take 5 (that would be the amount of models that directly profit.) so to conclude i don’t think bob is underpriced even for DK!