Dread Elves 2.0 Beta Armybook

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  • I think cult rules should only be present in units associated with a cult but should not give any limitations. Cult armies should just not be a thing.

    Example: dark raiders are devoted to Cadaron but there’s no such thing as your whole core can go for Cadaron. Either a unit is or isn’t devoted to a cult period. If the general belongs to a cult than that’s it. The general belongs to a cult period. If you want a fluff Nabh army than just play units devoted to Nabh auch as blades or execs. This way the cult rules are not implemented as „just for fluff“ but really may help the certain unit and are easier to balance. Ofcourse this would mean that the cult general rule is gone as well as cult rivalry. Additionally it would prevent us from swapping out KI for a cult rule. Ofcourse it’d also mean you can’t tailor a cult army via your general BUT this’d have the advantage that we don’t have to pay for Potentials of certain sinergies but only for what we just bought (for our character). Additionally it’d prevent us of blocking our selves certain possibilities because of fluff.

    In this example
    Cadaron remains its KI but still is +1 in short for dark raiders and cloaks

    Blades of Nabh and execs got KI as well as hatred

    Dancers of Yema still would have M6 but remain KI

    Generals may UPGRADE to a cult (for example Nabh) and get hatred. To present fluff we also could give a light benefit if a general is associated to the same cult such as „units with the same cult may use the generals leadership in 18“ or something alike that does not mess with balance and shows that matching cults are relevant.

    Another idea that would definitely be a bit problematic though is to just give the units the possibility of upgrading to a cult.

    For example: if the general belongs to Nabh dread Spears may upgrade to become Nabh themselves (and get hatred) 2ppm. This way we pay for what we get and don’t mix things weirdly. Note the unit CAN upgrade and not MUST upgrade. I think this are the 2 best possibilities. However the latter is problematic for balance as it seems and as I got told so option 1 is easier to implement!
  • grim squeaker wrote:

    The very definition of painting yourself into a corner, design wise :) Hope T9A doesn't plan on expanding their library of Armies - poor sucker Haha.
    Just curious, why and how did you find it too close to KoE's Blessing?
    Look it's sorta give and take...I mean it's like unnatural swiftness makes Elves unique per say so we as DE wouldn't want that just freely dolled out to everyone...or like our Death Trance mechanic...?

    Though Im not too sure about your wording, the idea of your "whole army" being affected by something at supposedly some detriment which I think you were aiming for is quite similar to the KoE Blessing thing....
  • noir wrote:

    I think cult rules should only be present in units associated with a cult but should not give any limitations. Cult armies should just not be a thing.

    Example: dark raiders are devoted to Cadaron but there’s no such thing as your whole core can go for Cadaron. Either a unit is or isn’t devoted to a cult period. If the general belongs to a cult than that’s it. The general belongs to a cult period. If you want a fluff Nabh army than just play units devoted to Nabh auch as blades or execs. This way the cult rules are not implemented as „just for fluff“ but really may help the certain unit and are easier to balance. Ofcourse this would mean that the cult general rule is gone as well as cult rivalry. Additionally it would prevent us from swapping out KI for a cult rule. Ofcourse it’d also mean you can’t tailor a cult army via your general BUT this’d have the advantage that we don’t have to pay for Potentials of certain sinergies but only for what we just bought (for our character). Additionally it’d prevent us of blocking our selves certain possibilities because of fluff.

    In this example
    Cadaron remains its KI but still is +1 in short for dark raiders and cloaks

    Blades of Nabh and execs got KI as well as hatred

    Dancers of Yema still would have M6 but remain KI

    Generals may UPGRADE to a cult (for example Nabh) and get hatred. To present fluff we also could give a light benefit if a general is associated to the same cult such as „units with the same cult may use the generals leadership in 18“ or something alike that does not mess with balance and shows that matching cults are relevant.

    Another idea that would definitely be a bit problematic though is to just give the units the possibility of upgrading to a cult.

    For example: if the general belongs to Nabh dread Spears may upgrade to become Nabh themselves (and get hatred) 2ppm. This way we pay for what we get and don’t mix things weirdly. Note the unit CAN upgrade and not MUST upgrade. I think this are the 2 best possibilities. However the latter is problematic for balance as it seems and as I got told so option 1 is easier to implement!
    This is effectively saying remove all cults, and we just have special rules that have 'cult' in the name.

    Cults are cult armies. Anything else is just normal special rules.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    noir wrote:

    I think cult rules should only be present in units associated with a cult but should not give any limitations. Cult armies should just not be a thing.

    Example: dark raiders are devoted to Cadaron but there’s no such thing as your whole core can go for Cadaron. Either a unit is or isn’t devoted to a cult period. If the general belongs to a cult than that’s it. The general belongs to a cult period. If you want a fluff Nabh army than just play units devoted to Nabh auch as blades or execs. This way the cult rules are not implemented as „just for fluff“ but really may help the certain unit and are easier to balance. Ofcourse this would mean that the cult general rule is gone as well as cult rivalry. Additionally it would prevent us from swapping out KI for a cult rule. Ofcourse it’d also mean you can’t tailor a cult army via your general BUT this’d have the advantage that we don’t have to pay for Potentials of certain sinergies but only for what we just bought (for our character). Additionally it’d prevent us of blocking our selves certain possibilities because of fluff.

    In this example
    Cadaron remains its KI but still is +1 in short for dark raiders and cloaks

    Blades of Nabh and execs got KI as well as hatred

    Dancers of Yema still would have M6 but remain KI

    Generals may UPGRADE to a cult (for example Nabh) and get hatred. To present fluff we also could give a light benefit if a general is associated to the same cult such as „units with the same cult may use the generals leadership in 18“ or something alike that does not mess with balance and shows that matching cults are relevant.

    Another idea that would definitely be a bit problematic though is to just give the units the possibility of upgrading to a cult.

    For example: if the general belongs to Nabh dread Spears may upgrade to become Nabh themselves (and get hatred) 2ppm. This way we pay for what we get and don’t mix things weirdly. Note the unit CAN upgrade and not MUST upgrade. I think this are the 2 best possibilities. However the latter is problematic for balance as it seems and as I got told so option 1 is easier to implement!
    This is effectively saying remove all cults, and we just have special rules that have 'cult' in the name.
    Cults are cult armies. Anything else is just normal special rules.
    Yep correct! I just felt I had to make clear to everyone what I meant by removing cults as I got quoted on that one sentence quite often!
  • @noir
    You captured my personal feelings on the cult matter perfectly. You eliminate the clunky confusion of what has Army wide special rules and what does not. You elimate the disaster of army list design, clearing all the confusion on what you are and are not allowed to include in your list. You clean up the super clunky core mess on which units are which cult and what you are and are not allowed to include based on your general. And most importantly you remove the cost being paid by units for what cult upgrades are possible rather then what they have. I hope you can make this a reality in the redesign, it’s great work and it’s nice to see you clearly communicating the underlying faults as you see them.
  • KiRaHyuU wrote:

    Look it's sorta give and take...I mean it's like unnatural swiftness makes Elves unique per say so we as DE wouldn't want that just freely dolled out to everyone...or like our Death Trance mechanic...?
    Okey, but I am talking about how the special ability is applied, not the content of the special ability.

    KiRaHyuU wrote:

    Though Im not too sure about your wording, the idea of your "whole army" being affected by something at supposedly some detriment which I think you were aiming for is quite similar to the KoE Blessing thing....
    First let me start by saying, I am not discussing this because I am trying to push through an idea I had, but rather me trying to understand the mind set of the Dark Elf design team.

    • The Blessing is a model rule applied once, before the battle (as any other special rule), to only a part of the KoE Army - Nobility, iirc. Can be enchanced by lessening the chance of getting first player turn.
    • A Cult Ritual is applied at the start of every turn and lasts one turn, and affect whole army. Dread Elf players can choose a new ritual every turn - none which provide an aegis save.
    I don't see how these are similar. Maybe its my wording :P
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  • I vote no cults and just write a solid army book where I don't get a headache figuring out where to put characters. I think the cult system is inherently unintuitive and unfriendly to beginners. Why not just add the special rules to the models already and ignore the cult part? Also, it does feel bad not having an identity through an army wide special rule, and I believe cults fracture that identity more than help it.
    I also think that shortening the range of our shooting is a gigantic nerf that shouldn't happen in 2.0. I don't think it adds flavor at all. At 24" we already are the shortest range elves, and at 36" for bolt throwers they become unusable.
  • Well for me I like to point out I would have miss out on other banners for the banner of speed and I like play 3 or 4 units so I maybe be one of the few that play them that way I know you can get 3 speed banners. As for witchcraft I have to keep hoping for them dice gods to answer my call to get spell off so I get +1. But I have played it both banners and witchcraft still would like to see movement 8 on Raptors not just for Knights but Chariots aswell just trying different way to get it in Yema Cult seems to be fair way to try. Didn't think of the Medusa so you just need to her M 8 to keep up with the knights since she using her magic on the knights.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Twilight Wolf ().

  • Nemeroth wrote:

    @noir for BLT, what’s the rationale behind captain’s cult of Olaron costing the same as Princes? They cannot bestow minimised Discipline rolls.

    Also is hiking prices for commonly taken models actually a thing? If so I’m a bit worried we’ll get stuck with skewed prices in the rework with all the back and forth.
    I don't know if someone has answer you but I think that the Captain is a simply option that can be general WITH minimised roll: Cult of Oralon + Crown of Autocracy. This is the reason (I suppose) because the Cult option cost is the same of the Prince.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Lifetaker ().