Kingdom of Equitaine 2.0 BETA Armybook

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  • Kingdom of Equitaine 2.0 BETA Armybook

    Edit: Formatting by Jurid

    "Ney Opening Thread as Coordinating Across the Globe is Fun... Check the Next Post - Jurid"

    Jurid wrote:

    Hail Knights
    ... and Knights and Knights


    Welcome to the New 2.0 KoE Book where we now can finally reveal the complete book along with most importantly the new pricing on a vast majority of our army.


    The Development of KoE has certainly proven to be a struggle - for just as there are competing goals even within the KoE Community (Some want better Peasants, others better RAF, some want more from our characters, whilst others want more bodies on the table), there are also competing goals for KoE at almost every level. Balance Teams and Play-testing are trying to deliver a balanced army point for point. RT are developing a rule-set which lets face it is designed for 14 Infantry Armies, 1 MI Army and KoE... ACS are trying to represent the community wishes in the book, whilst also pushing at various levels of aggression towards the Strengths and Weaknesses captured a long time ago.


    One of the most common issues as we started in on 2.0 however (and I have pages of issues that have been reported) is how easily we tend to drop off before we can do damage, and how although in theory we are an elite army, by the time we get to combat the damage just isn't there. This compounds in 1.3 in the following ways and I hope we have been able to address many of these in 2.0.


    Just a Sample of Some of the Issues that needed addressing
    - Rubber Lance
    - Agility 3 means we strike after anything worth charging, losing half our models before we swing
    - Continually increasing Ranged AP = Less models making combat
    - Low Agility Questing falling before they can swing on the monsters they are meant to hunt
    - Stacking of Special Rules Driving Up Knightly Prices Due to Low Unit Count
    - Peasant Tarpits Not Viable Due to LEaking Crusaders
    - No Non Tarpit Anvils (Barring Steadfast LEvel Knight Busses with Characters)


    Overall I feel the 2.0 book can addressed each of the above, and we should have a book that can compete in the BETA phase. I won't white wash this, there are certainly still issues with the book I would like to see improved, but lets start with an honest look at some of the changes and see what we can make of the book.


    Throughout the book you will notice quite a few, and in some cases drastic price drops on many items. Credit where it is due, certain members of the BLT have worked really well, both in official channels and other comms to try understand some of the more nuanced strengths and weaknesses, especially where strengths from... (0.10.0 and what came before) have impacted pricing but the Exploits benefits they allowed have been removed from T9A.

    Virtues
    The First of many areas where we see significant price drops and realignments to strengths. Might and Valour have been adjusted down, Audacity and Renown are now almost half the original price. Of those two, Audacity's Stubborn ability has been integrated into the Green Knight, whilst the Reroll abilities have been adjusted so that it is useful against a wider variety of models, scaling up as they do. All of this in a package just over half the price. Renown certainly is a weaker shell of itself, and many (myself included) will be sad to see Heroic Blows of old disappear. But with a eye to the future, we should see this virtue taken with more regularity due to its half price application, and now with Weapon Enchants from the BRB, it is now possible to build an, "Ignore Armour, If I Roll a 6 I ignore Everything and do D3 Wounds" approach. There are certainly changes here which may be good or bad, but certainly worth exploring. Also representing our Weaknesses, Humility has been limited to 0-2, avoiding a potentially higher price for those who still wish to shun knights in favour of the unwashed.


    [u]Hereditary Spells
    Barring high levels of AP, what is the one thing that hurts us, especially on the charge? 1's. Most of our knights will fail to hit on 1s and 2s, fail to wound on 1s on the charge, and fail to survive on armour on a 1. From both a fluff (Knights being gently guided and protected) AND a gameplay perspective, this is one of the areas of the 2.0 Rework we should celebrate the most. As recently as yesterday I am still arguing about the casting cost, but as far as function of this spell, especially on the charge enemies will be stopping this - potentially freeing up other spells.


    Heroes
    Duke, Paladin and Damsel - All I can say is check out the prices. Whilst Everyone is now paying significantly more for Master casters, all of our other prices have come down (except for a few weapon choices on the Duke.) We have been petitioning for 45% Character allowance since 1.3 - we haven't got it (yet...) but this certainly helps both our percentages and overall point costs. I never use the Castellean so I will leave comment on that...


    Knights
    If you look at all of our Knights, you will start to see more specialisation across these. Whilst the TT was not always in agreement, what we see now is Aspirants who are ~20% cheaper, KotR are still the benchmark, Questing are now truly our versatile strike force, whilst Grails can now fill out three ranks on their own AND with the changes to Blessing are now the most tanky models in the KoE arsenal. Add to this the Forlorns who have stormed out of obscurity to be the anvil to their mounted brethren's hammers AND who can now benefit from the slightly cleaner Relique - We are starting to move (slowly) towards a race of specialists who each bring their own benefits - from numbers thru to superior offence or defence. Although the slightly weaker blessing is certainly accounting for some of it, we are also seeing a nice price drop here.


    BRB Changes
    There are many benefits and weaknesses we were trying to keep in mind during the rework. The Agility Bonus on the charge is a significant gain for our army (Is it enough is a different conversation, but it is a great help - and Questing Knights benefit most from the combined change).
    note from Ney: More to come here :)
    On Hiatus. Want to see my Ogre Badlands Terrain?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Jurid ().

  • Hail Knights
    ... and Knights and Knights

    Welcome to the New 2.0 KoE Book where we now can finally reveal the complete book along with most importantly the new pricing on a vast majority of our army.

    The Development of KoE has certainly proven to be a struggle - for just as there are competing goals even within the KoE Community (Some want better Peasants, others better RAF, some want more from our characters, whilst others want more bodies on the table), there are also competing goals for KoE at almost every level. Balance Teams and Play-testing are trying to deliver a balanced army point for point. RT are developing a rule-set which lets face it is designed for 14 Infantry Armies, 1 MI Army and KoE... ACS are trying to represent the community wishes in the book, whilst also pushing at various levels of aggression towards the Strengths and Weaknesses captured a long time ago.

    One of the most common issues as we started in on 2.0 however (and I have pages of issues that have been reported) is how easily we tend to drop off before we can do damage, and how although in theory we are an elite army, by the time we get to combat the damage just isn't there. This compounds in 1.3 in the following ways and I hope we have been able to address many of these in 2.0.

    Just a Sample of Some of the Issues that needed addressing
    - Rubber Lance
    - Agility 3 means we strike after anything worth charging, losing half our models before we swing
    - Continually increasing Ranged AP = Less models making combat
    - Low Agility Questing falling before they can swing on the monsters they are meant to hunt
    - Stacking of Special Rules Driving Up Knightly Prices Due to Low Unit Count
    - Peasant Tarpits Not Viable Due to LEaking Crusaders
    - No Non Tarpit Anvils (Barring Steadfast LEvel Knight Busses with Characters)

    Overall I feel the 2.0 book can addressed each of the above, and we should have a book that can compete in the BETA phase. I won't white wash this, there are certainly still issues with the book I would like to see improved, but lets start with an honest look at some of the changes and see what we can make of the book.

    Throughout the book you will notice quite a few, and in some cases drastic price drops on many items. Credit where it is due, certain members of the BLT have worked really well, both in official channels and other comms to try understand some of the more nuanced strengths and weaknesses, especially where strengths from... (0.10.0 and what came before) have impacted pricing but the Exploits benefits they allowed have been removed from T9A.

    Virtues
    The First of many areas where we see significant price drops and realignments to strengths. Might and Valour have been adjusted down, Audacity and Renown are now almost half the original price. Of those two, Audacity's Stubborn ability has been integrated into the Green Knight, whilst the Reroll abilities have been adjusted so that it is useful against a wider variety of models, scaling up as they do. All of this in a package just over half the price. Renown certainly is a weaker shell of itself, and many (myself included) will be sad to see Heroic Blows of old disappear. But with a eye to the future, we should see this virtue taken with more regularity due to its half price application, and now with Weapon Enchants from the BRB, it is now possible to build an, "Ignore Armour, If I Roll a 6 I ignore Everything and do D3 Wounds" approach. There are certainly changes here which may be good or bad, but certainly worth exploring. Also representing our Weaknesses, Humility has been limited to 0-2, avoiding a potentially higher price for those who still wish to shun knights in favour of the unwashed.

    Hereditary Spells
    Barring high levels of AP, what is the one thing that hurts us, especially on the charge? 1's. Most of our knights will fail to hit on 1s and 2s, fail to wound on 1s on the charge, and fail to survive on armour on a 1. From both a fluff (Knights being gently guided and protected) AND a gameplay perspective, this is one of the areas of the 2.0 Rework we should celebrate the most. As recently as yesterday I am still arguing about the casting cost, but as far as function of this spell, especially on the charge enemies will be stopping this - potentially freeing up other spells.

    Heroes
    Duke, Paladin and Damsel - All I can say is check out the prices. Whilst Everyone is now paying significantly more for Master casters, all of our other prices have come down (except for a few weapon choices on the Duke.) We have been petitioning for 45% Character allowance since 1.3 - we haven't got it (yet...) but this certainly helps both our percentages and overall point costs. I never use the Castellean so I will leave comment on that...

    Knights
    If you look at all of our Knights, you will start to see more specialisation across these. Whilst the TT was not always in agreement, what we see now is Aspirants who are ~20% cheaper, KotR are still the benchmark, Questing are now truly our versatile strike force, whilst Grails can now fill out three ranks on their own AND with the changes to Blessing are now the most tanky models in the KoE arsenal. Add to this the Forlorns who have stormed out of obscurity to be the anvil to their mounted brethren's hammers AND who can now benefit from the slightly cleaner Relique - We are starting to move (slowly) towards a race of specialists who each bring their own benefits - from numbers thru to superior offence or defence. Although the slightly weaker blessing is certainly accounting for some of it, we are also seeing a nice price drop here.

    BRB Changes
    There are many benefits and weaknesses we were trying to keep in mind during the rework. The Agility Bonus on the charge is a significant gain for our army (Is it enough is a different conversation, but it is a great help - and Questing Knights benefit most from the combined change). Changes to Spears are going to be a mixed Blessing. Due to Reroll Mechanics, our Characters fear spears less, but our normal knights on the charge will be opened up by these spikes. Loss of Skirmish on Pegs will hurt, but we have seen a small price drop for now.

    PlayTest!
    Finally - These are just the thoughts and theorycraft of myself and reviewing how we got here. What is most important is to actually play the army, get feedback, and send it back. Thru the time I have been your ACS, I have seen we have many generals great at theorycraft, many who are great at playing and coming away with winning records, some who are great army building, or army book building. Some are just great at finding fault... But the one thing that will help us the most here is to build lists, get games, and give feedback! I have opened up a thread just for this with an army list template and three simple questions. Get the armylists out and the results and feedback in. This is a BETA phase and feedback is key so we can see any discovered issues resolved in weeks or months, not hanging over us until an armybook is released.

    Time to Roll those Dice...

    KoE Community Support


    "Since it is so likely that children will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage"... CS Lewis

  • Quick Reference Guide of Other Theads
    - Army Book


    For Any Questions or Interpretation Issues with the Rules in the New Rule Book
    - 2.0 KoE Rulebook Rules Q&A

    For All the Amazing Battle Reports and Army Lists you are going to Submit
    - 2.0 KoE Playtesting Feedback

    Any Layout, Spelling, Grammar, or continuity Issues in the Book, Please Report them here
    - 2.0 KoE Erratta

    For Discussing Issues in the MAIN Rule Book Regarding our army...
    - 2.0 KoE Main Rulebook Discussion

    KoE Community Support


    "Since it is so likely that children will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage"... CS Lewis

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Jurid ().

  • Some questions

    Jurid wrote:

    now fill out three ranks on their own AND with the changes to Blessing are now the most tanky models in the KoE arsenal
    Explain? Nothing changed expect that all other models got worse

    Jurid wrote:

    Peasant Tarpits Not Viable Due to LEaking Crusaders
    Explain. dont understand

    Jurid wrote:

    The First of many areas where we see significant price drops and realignments to strengths. Might and Valour have been adjusted down
    You mean we got cheaper as we got worse.... that is nothing postive nor negative

    Jurid wrote:

    is Aspirants who are ~20% cheaper
    they are not cheaper... they are different aka worse = cheaper

    Jurid wrote:

    There are many benefits and weaknesses we were trying to keep in mind during the rework. The Agility Bonus on the charge is a significant gain for our army (Is it enough is a different conversation, but it is a great help - and Questing Knights benefit most from the combined change)
    This bonus also holds true for all other armies which will hit at the same time when they charge us.
    This is nothing positive = its is neutral with slightly favoring fast armies (elfen, OK, Cavalry EoS/KoE)



    Only good thing are cheaper characters lets check shall we?


    OldNew%
    170170Duke0
    8570horse17,8
    130130pega0
    240215Hippo10.42
    130130Paladin0
    4540Horse11,11
    110110Pega0
    150130Damsel13,33
    5040Horse20
    10080Unicorn20
    9075Pega16,66
    12080Castelancant tell rework
    30 (barded)60horsecant tell rework (less armor)

    Damsel master old on horse = 400 points
    Damsel master new on horse = 395 points

    Duke Old = 255 Horse
    Duke new = 240 = 5,89% horse

    Hey we can upgrade our yeomen with shields which pay 10 more from the get go :P

    Comparison just for lulz:
    HBE mage old foot (most played) master = 400
    HBE mage new on foot master = 425 (with way better passiv now which gives them -1 to complexity to cast ...)

    Lulz more:
    Hbe mage old horse master = 440
    New same = 445 WITH WAY BETTER PASSIV
    AND THEY CAN BUY ARMOR ON THEIR MAGES == AKA 2/3+ armor saves cavalry model? (didnt check the combos)
    And they pay 5 points more for this..
    Edit: and they can even buy armor on flying eagles mages now...
    or dragonmage with armor and ward shooting fireballs into close combat :)

    and you tell our mages got cheaper but other not ? hö? Yeah you are right.... ours are cheaper... others are stronger :)

    ähm yeah huuuge :) while other armies got the same?


    lets check gobo for lulz:
    Witch doctor master lets take common as i have no idea = 340
    New = 340

    so yeah damsel on foot got cheaper. Nice a buff to peasants armies :)

    AND Magic ressitences is worse imo now. So yeah buff? I dont know

    But lets take the normal builds:
    Horse damsel? 5 points cheaper with worse MR = no buff
    Paladin horse = 5 points cheaper = nice (after checking items he is more expensive with shield...)
    Duke horse = 15 points cheaper = nice
    Paladin/duke pegasus = same
    Duke hippo = 25 points cheaper = nice!

    So if we take all of this = 45/50 points cheaper. Normal army has double chaff = 20 more expensive = we save 30 points = not even one knight on horse :)


    BUT HEY WAIT!!
    Weapon/armor options:
    • Shield = 5 points cheaper for duke and 1 more point EXPENSIVE for paladin AND option hardend shield gone = aka we have to buy shield always now
    • Paired weapons/great weapons /halberd got all cheaper. Discarded because who uses this?
    • Questing oath with greatweapon ? Yeah you save 20 points as you dont have to buy a weapon .... and it is worse then before. = nothing saved
    • Lance? 10 points cheaper = that is really nice for jousting rule


    So a duke on horse got a gud buff. That is nice. We save 15 points on horse, we save 5 points on shield and we save 10 for lance. So we save at least 20 points and further 10 if you buy 2 weapons.

    Thant is good thanks.




    But then i look at my stable army
    • Yeomen = 10 points more = 20
    • Trebuchet = 5 points more = 10
    • bowmen 50 points more expensive (crossbows 1 point cheaper: old 10 cross= 180. New 15 crossbows = 235)
    So overall i pay for 10 more models (crossbows) and other stuff at least 110 + 30 points more. Lets discard the 110 because i get more bodies and shooting = 30 points

    So overall my army cost more then before :) nothing major

    Nice thing is that Pegasus knights got 20 points cheaper or AKA free standard. = 380/360 new = 5,27% cheaper. Not bad. with no option for skirmish = paying 10€ for new movement tray :)


    Edit:
    way to many edits :)


    Edit last:
    conclusion:
    I fail to see where our characters got buffed....or any other stuff you write

                

    Translation Team DE

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Klexe ().

  • Total: in fact, almost no improvements (or they eventually will not affect the game), but worsened quite a lot. And then the authors are trying to say that they "did a good job on the book"? It seems the authors really don't like the army of KoE.

    Do you really think that this army was so powerful that it always broke any other 20-0?
    Do you know, there is a Golden rule: "Do Not fix what is not broken".

    The post was edited 1 time, last by cpt.Svarog ().

  • Well, Aspirants did NOT get cheaper, as they got an obligatory sixth knight - actually mostly useless, as the most popular use of them was minimum unit size in a single rank (frenzy + cavalry support) - so the minimum unit cost is actually larger than before (245 vs 240 points). Of course, people playing a larger unit of them would benefit from the change, except that their rules actually promote the exact opposite...

    I must say that I am quite happy with Dread Elves for the moment - but I feel really sorry for people having no alternative to playing KoE. Then again, twelve years without proper update should have taught all of us not to count on Bretonnian collection alone ;) .
    My PLOG - restarted on the Ninth Age! - updated:
    06th December: Grail Knight WIP
    28th November: two battle reports!
    11th November: WIP Harpies
    20th October: 10 more Spearelves
    17th September: Battle Report is complete finally
    Previous entries: 2018: Aug 01&10, Jun 18,Apr 03, Mar 09,2017: Dec 04, 26, 30; Nov: 04, 19.
  • I don't get why Grail knights are more tanky???? Maybe I'm missing something.
    - Pegasus char mount weapon skill went down to 3
    - mounted yoeman price went up to 120?? Why?
    -Don't mind the increase in price for archers, as anyway we need to cover the 25% Core. And personally I think that aspirants with last charge banner is an okiyish unit.
    - but the increase in price of our chaff is horrible, we really need these guys for competitive gaming. They are not CORE, so why increase in price?????

    The post was edited 1 time, last by SirVelinn ().

  • lol what? They nerfed pegasus mounts and then want to sell us this as point reduciton buff ?... haha :)

    @Windelov
    Perhaps HR and mods can already start watching this thread.

    sry
    jurid i am not impressed how this text is presented to us.. you could even say you are straight out lying... who wrote this text...


    edit:

    and yes i mean that even if i come over as an donkey


    edit: funny...
    i reported the error in pegasus mount that it has devastating charge +1 attack and it is still in there... why? This was 5 weeks ago

                

    Translation Team DE

    Product-Search

    KoE Community Support

  • Fly 7" disqualified Pegasus mount already IMO anyway.
    My PLOG - restarted on the Ninth Age! - updated:
    06th December: Grail Knight WIP
    28th November: two battle reports!
    11th November: WIP Harpies
    20th October: 10 more Spearelves
    17th September: Battle Report is complete finally
    Previous entries: 2018: Aug 01&10, Jun 18,Apr 03, Mar 09,2017: Dec 04, 26, 30; Nov: 04, 19.
  • I'm keen for the book :)

    On yeomen: 4+ save fast cav for 130 is good in my books.

    The big gains are hereditary spell, last charge (makes a core unit hitty without characters), green knight, questing on fliers, grails in 9s, can run more core bodies for the cost.

    Forlorn also very good but less my style.

    Anyone else spot you can put 2 banner castellan and a bsb all with formation banner in peasants and have 10 static CR? And the castellan don't have to be in front?
  • So i just finished reading the new book .
    My first impression , is positive on the whole , but I was hoping for more .
    The changes that have been made ,at 1st glance and not having played yet, are minor adjustments and fiddling around the edges . They don't really address any of the real problems with the army in any meaningful way , but they do improve things some .
    on the plus side nothing got really FUBARed that I can see .

    I am disappointed that there are no new units , I was kinda expecting something .This is a personal thing but I was hoping to see us flushed out into a more complete medieval themed army . We are still a one trick pony at heart , now with a few more frills .
    I have been tuned out of T9A for several months and figured I would get back into it once 2.0 dropped . When i tuned out there seemed to be a decision that needed to be made on the army and what direction it should take . Stay in line with the WH vision of bertonia ( an army that had not evolved with that game or this one ) , or rework it into something new and abandon the WH vision but build a fully flushed out army . There were 2 distinct camps , and it looks like the 1st camp has clearly won out. This in its self is neither good or bad , it just is . We are for better or worse tin cans on horses with sticks , that's about it , and this will always be a serious handicap . Given this limitation on the design team they did a good job . They tweaked and fiddles as much as they could to help the army some and on the whole they succeeded within the design limits of the army concept.
  • The Kremlin wrote:

    Errants in my eye gain in reliability as flanking units due to ld9 for panic. More bodies too so harder to kill off.
    on the contrary, they lost reliability.

    They lost re-roll for failed charge, they cant make flee reaction, they are testing frenzy on LD 5.

    Only thing they gained - cant flee from terror and panic. Not worth it, imho.

    (not counting price - they got cheaper, but I have to buy one more, so no discount anyway.)