Add the other Chaff units to Core for VC

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    • Add the other Chaff units to Core for VC

      I think two other units should be added to VC core because they are chaff and VC already suffer the most from the core tax. These two units are the Great Bats and the Ghost Horde. Having to cut points from the effective part of the list to add chaff that you like is pretty rough considering most other armies don't have to (most armies chaff comes from core). There are certain armies your VC core choices do almost nothing because all 60 models can die so quickly with crumble (usually in one combat phase). Against other armies the core choices get shot to death. The counter to this, is to realize your core will do nothing so you might as well take all chaff to redirect and kill war machines. The problem is many of the chaff is in special for what seems like no reason. There's nothing too special about them. Special seems to be reserved for units that are much better than core. Things like monstrosities and Barrow guard and knights. Not chaff that will likely die very quickly to almost anything. I think this will help and really balance the list against some opponents while not making it overpowered. I think that's what we're aiming for.

      Great Bats are pretty terrible stat wise and they can't even march if not within general range to use there flying movement well. The ghost horde with changes to ethereal are still only chaff. They will die very quickly to ranked units or even units with lots of attacks. let alone magic and magical attacks units/characters. Neither one of these units can actually do damage. A maxed out unit of 6 ghost horde could tarpit something but against ranks and banner will lost at least 1-2 bases every hth round even against normal attacks of most other armies core units (you can do the stats yourself). In this way the ghost horde might sometimes be able to do what zombies were intended to do and tarpit units. The problem with the VC core is that elite units now just unleash way too much damage for the core in VC to be tarpits against some armies. The core become free points for the enemy and get in the way of your actual effective units scoring points. If an enemy unit is fighting zombies you can not charge it with an elite VC unit because the crumble from the zombies will kill your elite unit. With chaff this is no longer much of a problem because the amount of wounds that the chaff contains is very low or the ethereal might limit the number of wounds the opponent can do t the chaff unit.
    • Not on the Ghost Horde. No ranks and banner means it crumbles away to almost anything. Only having a 2+ ward save means it even crumbles more than before. Your lucky to do any wounds with WS 3 St 3 especially against hand weapon and shield. There kind of expensive too. The only use in 8th was stopping up monsters or chariots that don't have magical attacks but that was very situational and hard to pull off. Mostly they become one turn chaff to redirect just like wolves. It would be better if they had some kind of good attack and even less of a save then they might be useful.
    • SailorMeni wrote:

      Bats are the best redirectors. Putting them into core would be too much, replacing wolves entirely.
      Ghost Horde, I don't know ...

      But what should be considered as Core would be the Cadaver Wagon. It is just not good enough to be a reasonable special choice, but as Core you could seriously consider him.

      Why shouldn´t you consider it? really? give me that wagon for the rest of the armies I play... hahah
      For 80 pts its a chariot and if its affected by an aura spell it gives to one unit at 6um lightning reflexes till the end of the turn...
      2d6 A, 4W, regeneration... and can be given upgrades for just +10 pts it makes an enemy wizard -1 to cast..

      Come on... for those points you won´t know the difference and its cheap what more you want? to be autoinclude and in core so you can have other powerfull units?

      Like I said in another post its great where it its.
    • Superorko wrote:

      SailorMeni wrote:

      Bats are the best redirectors. Putting them into core would be too much, replacing wolves entirely.
      Ghost Horde, I don't know ...

      But what should be considered as Core would be the Cadaver Wagon. It is just not good enough to be a reasonable special choice, but as Core you could seriously consider him.
      Why shouldn´t you consider it? really? give me that wagon for the rest of the armies I play... hahah
      For 80 pts its a chariot and if its affected by an aura spell it gives to one unit at 6um lightning reflexes till the end of the turn...
      2d6 A, 4W, regeneration... and can be given upgrades for just +10 pts it makes an enemy wizard -1 to cast..

      Come on... for those points you won´t know the difference and its cheap what more you want? to be autoinclude and in core so you can have other powerfull units?

      Like I said in another post its great where it its.
      First of all, though it has the troop type "Chariot", it has no qualities of a Chariot whatsoever. It has B4 (can march) has no swiftstride and laughable impact hits (accompanied by laughable Zombie-Attacks). This thing cannot fight and doesnot want to see a close combat.

      It is a buff wagon for infantry. Apart from Grave Guard and Chars, nobody even cares (o my god, Zombies hit on a 4+!). Since Vampires must fill their Core with rather weak infantry units, they need to put all remaining points in as much output as possible. A 100P unit which needs magic directed at it to contribute to the game and is killed off very easily (a 2D6 Fireball for example has a 50:50 chance of killing it outright) will never make it into a competitive list.

      Putting it to Core will definitely not break the game (other armies have real chariots in core for example), but it would make the wagon a reasonable choice.
    • SailorMeni wrote:

      Superorko wrote:

      SailorMeni wrote:

      Bats are the best redirectors. Putting them into core would be too much, replacing wolves entirely.
      Ghost Horde, I don't know ...

      But what should be considered as Core would be the Cadaver Wagon. It is just not good enough to be a reasonable special choice, but as Core you could seriously consider him.
      Why shouldn´t you consider it? really? give me that wagon for the rest of the armies I play... hahahFor 80 pts its a chariot and if its affected by an aura spell it gives to one unit at 6um lightning reflexes till the end of the turn...
      2d6 A, 4W, regeneration... and can be given upgrades for just +10 pts it makes an enemy wizard -1 to cast..

      Come on... for those points you won´t know the difference and its cheap what more you want? to be autoinclude and in core so you can have other powerfull units?

      Like I said in another post its great where it its.
      First of all, though it has the troop type "Chariot", it has no qualities of a Chariot whatsoever. It has B4 (can march) has no swiftstride and laughable impact hits (accompanied by laughable Zombie-Attacks). This thing cannot fight and doesnot want to see a close combat.
      It is a buff wagon for infantry. Apart from Grave Guard and Chars, nobody even cares (o my god, Zombies hit on a 4+!). Since Vampires must fill their Core with rather weak infantry units, they need to put all remaining points in as much output as possible. A 100P unit which needs magic directed at it to contribute to the game and is killed off very easily (a 2D6 Fireball for example has a 50:50 chance of killing it outright) will never make it into a competitive list.

      Putting it to Core will definitely not break the game (other armies have real chariots in core for example), but it would make the wagon a reasonable choice.
      You want to protect it? man you have regeneration on a semichariot that exists to give buffs...

      what more you want for 90pts?
      t5?
      more attacks?
      it has 4 w then what price would you pay for it?
      and it can be healed also been undead....

      Aparte take it as a war platform in a unit of zombis if you want to save a 90-100 buffwagon...
    • Superorko wrote:


      You want to protect it? man you have regeneration on a semichariot that exists to give buffs...
      what more you want for 90pts?
      t5?
      more attacks?
      it has 4 w then what price would you pay for it?
      and it can be healed also been undead....

      Aparte take it as a war platform in a unit of zombis if you want to save a 90-100 buffwagon...

      I want a reason to take it into a competible list.
      The design is fine, the price is ok, but it just doesn't contribute enough to be an interesting choice in special.

      But never mind. It has been dusting for 10 years, it can dust a little longer.
    • Well, if your cadaver wagon was dusting for 10 years mine was being played for other 10 years.

      As I seen in other thread, i've seen people complaining about Covenant units. I can see your point but i can't accept it. Play troops who needs magic and combos to work isn't a problem because the entire army works like that and you always must use powerful magic.

      And it seems to easy forget one thing. The enemy must play the 25% of his army too in core units. Units who can flee and not raise. Not all enemy units are dragons or juggernauts. You play too against imperial knights, elven spearmen, ogres and other units without WS5, thoughtness 4/5 and armour save 1+. You can use your weaker units to handle weakest units of the enemy or empower with some tricks your weaker units to fight with the hard hitting enemy units when with your shock troops like vampiric or barrow units you get the victory points, both are good choices.

      You need think you can you make your troops strongest as posible with combos. Or now you can ignore that and play strigoi/blood dragon and destroy the world with some sayajins. An army who can do that is beatiful :D
    • Erik Zorninsson wrote:

      Well, if your cadaver wagon was dusting for 10 years mine was being played for other 10 years.

      As I seen in other thread, i've seen people complaining about Covenant units. I can see your point but i can't accept it. Play troops who needs magic and combos to work isn't a problem because the entire army works like that and you always must use powerful magic.

      And it seems to easy forget one thing. The enemy must play the 25% of his army too in core units. Units who can flee and not raise. Not all enemy units are dragons or juggernauts. You play too against imperial knights, elven spearmen, ogres and other units without WS5, thoughtness 4/5 and armour save 1+. You can use your weaker units to handle weakest units of the enemy or empower with some tricks your weaker units to fight with the hard hitting enemy units when with your shock troops like vampiric or barrow units you get the victory points, both are good choices.

      You need think you can you make your troops strongest as posible with combos. Or now you can ignore that and play strigoi/blood dragon and destroy the world with some sayajins. An army who can do that is beatiful :D
      Yo have 2 chaff units in core... wolves and bat swarms...
      other armies have:

      BH: hounds (5) (40pts) and mongrel raiders with scout (5) (50points)
      DE: no core chaff
      DH:no core chaff
      DL: no core chaff (minimun 70pts daemonetes)
      ES: empire milia (5 models-40pts), imperial calvary? (5) (90pts not even chaff)
      HB: elven calvary (5) (80pts)
      ID: 20 sneaky gits? (80 pts)
      KE: 10 Militia (40pts)- bowmen (10) (60 pts)
      Ok: 10 hill goblins (40) -
      OG: goblin on wolves/spiders (5) (60pts)
      SA: 2 swarms (60-70 pts) & 2 type of skinks (From 50- 80 pts)
      SE: 5 Raiders (90pts)
      VS: 2 swarms (50pts)
      UD: 5 cavalry (65pts-75pts)
      W: 5 fallen (75pts) - 5 hounds (35pts) - 5mounted barbarians (85pts)

      In all armies they have raised the points or given that option of chaff to special slot like VS,ID, UD.

      Vampires have wolves and bat swarms... they are pretty decent chaff u can have:
      4x5 wolves with vanguard
      4x2 bat swarms that fly and give -1 to ws... having each base cost 15points?
      for only 400pts...

      Come on guys i have seen the other VC combos like the barrowguard, ghouls and varbeast ( :/ don´t know how your still complaining by wanting more chaff to include more hitting and hard units in special..
    • My point was that since there is chaff in core that will be the only chaff ever used. Picking chaff in special only makes your actual damage dealing units weaker.

      The point was not the VC doesn't have chaff or not that's it's not good chaff units. The point was the special chaff units will almost never be used because of the core chaff units. I wanted to make all the chaff core so I could actually use those models without losing too much power in the army. Direwolves and Giant Bats do pretty much the same thing but dire wolves are core so you won't see many giant bats. Although I bet you see a lot of Armies with maxed out dire wolves. Who wants to see the exact same thing every time you play an army. The ghost horde is a chaff unit that can tie things up in very limited circumstances and because it's special you won't see it used. The core chaff is cheaper and does a better job than ghost horde except in those limited circumstances (no magic attacks, no ranks for the enemy).

      The bat swarm also need some bonus. I can't imagine a scenario where its is better than direwolves or zombies. I am not sure why anyone would waste points on these. Isn't the point to entice someone to use each unit in their army list. Some type of internal balance. Also don't you want to see some army variation when playing or playing against VC.

      Also having 5+ chaff units in an army list is kind of silly. Make the other units have some other role would be nice.
    • Do like my and use bat swarm as a one more combo. Just one tool more in your hands to nerf enemy units. Fear, some hexes, blood powers, more magic items... -1 WS to the enemy usually is very useful. Just play the swarms with 1 colunm and 2 ranks and charge with other unit.

      And the giant bats fly, still move 10, are inmune to psyco and don't causes any panic test. Is just the best redirecting unit in the entire game and i don't see what's changed. In past edition all vampire armies starts with 3 of these units. If now we're playing them less is because they're exactly the same and is funnier try the new stuff, but we know how the bats are, at least in reliably terms.
    • Erik Zorninsson wrote:

      Do like my and use bat swarm as a one more combo. Just one tool more in your hands to nerf enemy units. Fear, some hexes, blood powers, more magic items... -1 WS to the enemy usually is very useful. Just play the swarms with 1 colunm and 2 ranks and charge with other unit.

      And the giant bats fly, still move 10, are inmune to psyco and don't causes any panic test. Is just the best redirecting unit in the entire game and i don't see what's changed. In past edition all vampire armies starts with 3 of these units. If now we're playing them less is because they're exactly the same and is funnier try the new stuff, but we know how the bats are, at least in reliably terms.
      Still, bat Swarm is very fragile (WS2 T2). So much that I wonder if they help the Enemy more than they help me in a combined charge.

      Giant bats are a bit less fragile than swarms, but they would be destroyed by any other chaff (like giant eagles) and can't flee from charges. Those are for me very decisive characteristics for any chaff/redirectors/velites. If they can't face other redirectors, they can't really control any space of the board, and their huge movement ability would only serve to make them speed bumps with teleporting ability. The elf giant eagle can do the same, and also kill his own points in chaff and flee from charges...

      The psicology effect? With BSB rerrolls, panic is not as it used to be. It also comes hand with hand with inability to march-fly (their biggest advantage) more than 12" away from the general.
      Undead Legions should be back from the grave! With blackjack. And hookers!

      In fact, forget about Undead Legions...
    • Usually you can do a combined charge when only 1 model (and his support attack maybe) can attack the swarm, just touching the corner enemy base.

      And you can do complicated charges free because they fly.


      I never seen giant bats fighting any other unit, even warmachines. They exists only for redirecting purposes. It doesn't matter if they can't beat a giant eagle.

      The psychology effect it's important. You're talking about BSB like if everyone is in it range all the time and isn't true. And the discipline combo doesn't exists anymore, so not everyone have L10. That means the leadership tests can be failed more, and that's a nerf for everyone else except undead, cheer up.

      And you're talking about march if our bats never could be inside our general bubble. So the enemy chaff units are always in enemy general/BSB bubble and ours never can. It doesn't seems a neutral and objective point of view, don't you think?

      You have to think our strenghts and not only our weakness.