Fixing the ID Shooting - Barrage

    • Fixing the ID Shooting - Barrage

      ***This thread is about brainstorming, post your own ideas about how to fix the ID shooting!***

      Hi all!

      This thread is the brother of the Fixing the ID Shooting - Core , dedicated to our Barrage section now. Lets try to fix it!

      ID must be one of the strongest shooting armies. In fact, with the ASAW, Gunline is the #1 voted playstyle, and our shooting was voted as "medium - short range, bu movile and strong". In fact, actually, it isnt. Lets see all our options in the Barrage section and how to fix them:


      -Engineers: engineers costing barrage points make them unplayable. All the engineers of the game (ID, DH and EoS) have the same issue, so my fix is pretty simple: all the Engineers shouldnt cost "warmachine section" points, just character ones. Our Engineers are the most expensive too, having more wounds etc but no more engineer rules, and thats a problem too. In fact I will prefer more cheap engineers and with more rules dedicated to warmachines instead being wizards.

      -Rocket Battery: Rocket Battery is supposed to be our cannon, in words of the ADT. But when you compare them and make statistics u see that it deals less wounds than a cannon, its more expensive, has just 1 mode of fire and has a ridiculous AP. My fix is: reduce the cost at least 60 points, increase the AP to 4, make it 2D6+2 hits.

      -Volcano Cannon: volcanno cannon is a flamethrower. All the flamethrowers have the problem of range. May be a +6'' range will help him, but actually it isnt that bad. The issue is than it competes with the gunnery team flamethrowers, cheaper and movile, so thats the reason I think an increase of range (or strenght) may help it.

      -Titan Mortar: titan mortar is a good catapult. Its main issue is the cost. I think it just needs a points reduction.

      -Bound Daemon: bound daemon is a really painful case... ID are supposed to be the "movile artillery" army, and one of the most iconic units of the army, a half demon and half warmachine one, cant move and fire. Its nearly to insulting seeing half of the armies with move and fire warmachines, and we, the supposed masters of that, not being able to do that. Bound Daemon should can move and fire, and IMHO making a Warmachine a demon should have more effects- Probably I will reduce the range of the warmachine in a 25% and increase it S and AP by 1.

      -Gunnery Teams: gunnery teams are the best thing of the 2.0 book. But they are not balanced themselves. Nobody plays the Gunnery, and the Grenade Launcher has received very bad critics. The real good one is the flamethrower. To fix them, I suggest to change the number of shots of the Gunnery to 2D6x2, and increase the AP of the Grenade Launcher to 3 and its shots to 1D6+2.
    • We do have some good stuff in our army, but it's drowned out by some bad design decisions.

      My thoughts (based on what I've seen and used)

      Engineers: Having the engineer come out of barrage points singlehandedly removed engineers from the army. I'm only going to bring an engineer or two if I want to maximize my barrage shooting, but I can't maximize my barrage shooting if the engineer costs more than the majority of the war machines do in the first place. Only the rocket battery and the titan mortar cost more than the engineer. Also, you don't get 180 points of barrage value out of an engineer in this army. You get +1 to hit on one war machine, all for the cost of two bolt throwers and a bunker unit (because you don't dare leave 180 points of barrage completely alone and unprotected). Not worth it in the slightest. The engineer upgrade should be a way to sacrifice some of your character points to increase your barrage potential, rather than a way to sacrifice some of your barrage points to have less barrage potential overall ||

      Titan mortar: Honestly, I think this model is perfect. It is expensive, but you do feel like you are getting your money's worth. At the same point, you don't feel like you have to take it. If it were any cheaper, it would be auto-include. If it were any more expensive, it would rarely be seen. This is one of the two bench lines this section needs to balance the rest of the barrage section around.

      Hobgoblin bolt thrower: This is the other bench line. If the titan mortar is expensive and powerful, this is cheap and efficient. What do you do with a slow dwarf army when you want to max out on your combat forces but don't want to lose one of the army's advantages? You take a few bolt throwers. It doesn't cut into the army much, but still gives you some decent fire support. And you don't need to protect it, because it is cheap enough that you don't care. It becomes immobile chaff in the later turns. This is a great unit, and I love it.

      Rocket battery: Hoo boy. Great design, terrible pricing. If this were half the cost, I think it would be worth bringing. It is a supportive piece: not as powerful as the titan mortar (by a long shot), but capable of plinking a few wounds off during the first few rounds. Right now, though? It is priced as though it were the single greatest war machine ever devised, while the reality is that it is merely "ok".

      Volcano cannon: The single greatest design flaw was making short range more effective in an even more short range war machine. In v1.1, flame throwers were equally good at all ranges. It is what made the short range work. "I can't hit you from range, but if you come into my protected zone, I will make you hurt" is what the army is supposed to do. Short range but powerful. But this design prevents that. There isn't a single unit in the game that will come into short range of this. "I'm 13" out. Your volcano cannon hits me with the weak shot. Now I charge and you are done". Honestly, if we were just to get rid of the extra power at short range and make it uniform damage at anything shot at (and priced correctly for this new state of being), the volcano cannon would be one of our mainstays again.



      I've never tried the bound demon, and I haven't had a chance to try the gunnery teams yet, so I'll withhold comment on them until I have some play experience with them.
    • Engineer should be a different character. Remove it from the wizard. We gain little from them being the same unit. The point of engi is sticking to its machines, our wizards can move more with our range requirements.

      Engis by themselves can loose a wound and get cheaper. Get them some magic buffs on the engines of war of you're so adamant on them being more than just engineers. Make it interesting to purchase.

      Rocket battery needs to get considerably closer to 200 pts.

      Daemon engines not moving and firing is absurd. The point of medium shooting is that it moves and works on zone control and forces enemy movement through that threat. Currently it doesn't since with move or fire you get dictated where you have to focus your guns.

      The gunnery teams I love them, the machine gun and flame thrower look awesome.
    • I totally agree on the engineer. An engineer only character is simply too expensive. The Wizard/Engineer combo doesn´t work because you can hardly keep your wizard close enough to the warmashine the whole game.

      Titan Mortar is great. No changes please. I even think the price is okay.

      Rocket battery is way too expensive.

      Gunnery Team flame thrower. I used them in a battle and I really like them. Another chance to make an
      opponent flameable and that works on 2+ and can´t be prevented is absolutely sweet. And d3 wounds with
      flaming attacks can scare (fry) ogres to death.

      Bolt thrower is fine.

      If you play barrage focused you could get

      2 Mortars 600
      1 granade launcher
      1 Flamethrower (gunnery team)

      That`s maybe not enough but I wouldn´t concider it too bad either
    • Engineer only characters shouldn't be expensive as now (consider all Engis are expensive now to their armies). They are a buff to warmachines and that's about it, I don't see why they have to be so expensive and prohibitive on cost. Some times it's one more machine you don't field and the buff can't be said to bring that bonus of another machine.
    • ok, let's fix it

      I'll give my usual eccentric ideas to stimulate creativity of the awesome guys who constantly give their time and thought for the cause:

      1) Engineer-wizard... it's genius but un-synergic, because of the paths: none has bonus/buffs for the shooting (flaming swords is the only spell but often redundant, we got plenty of flaming weapons...)
      Suggestion: make the engineer count only half (90pts) against barrage and give him a bound spell (+1 hit with shooting or reroll to hit, ) and suddenly he becomes attractive and sinergic with warmachines and light firearms as well

      2) rocket battery: good design, not great, irrealistic price (maybe correct under some calculations, but nearly impossible to field)
      Design ideas: rockets are easy to customize, so two or three shooting modes at least!
      -Armour piercing ammo: shots 3d3 S7 AP4

      -High explosive ammo: shots 2d6 S5 AP1 (good sinergy with flaming swords)

      -Incendiary ammo: shots 3D6 S3 AP0 flaming (considering the 48" range is an attractive option to me, good sinergy with many spells and the bullhorn of nezibkesh)

      3) gunnery teams: great idea (the steam chassis :thumbup: ) I think they should be 0-4 (max 0-2 each)
      I'll add some spice to the machinegun like "pump the ammo feed!" That makes double hits but a -2 on the misfire table
      and something is missing to the grenade launcher too... ah yes, maybe just S5 but Multiple Wounds D3 (I think a 170 pts warmachine is worth it, for 200 many armies take a catapult, or 90 for a ballista... and they land fatal blows from a distance... not 18"...

      4) all flamethrower weapons: range is not a factor (it's not a ballistic weapon) for the damage. But it's highly irrealistic to shoot a jet of flames over the head of something or someone without hitting EVERYTHING in the path. And definitively, you don't need to take aim. SO the 2+ fixed hit is a good rule, the range should not be more than 24", but you should have to make an attack like the old line template, hitting on 2+ friends and foes under the line, visible or not they are caught in the inferno. So you can have a fixed S4 AP1 MW2
      A flamethrower like that is a very scary weapon, and the ID have an infernal Armour you can count on... :D

      5) Infernal Engine: should be our tank, so the shrapnel gun could be fine. It could be a great mount for the engineer too... ;)

      6) bound demons: horribly designed (sorry) but M4, big base and move or fire are so bad that it's even impossible to speak about...

      That'all, hope to be inspiring for the fix
      Best regards! :thumbsup:
    • VS have such a similar rule? I did not noticed...

      In my idea the gunnery team has D6 or 2D6 or 3D6 shots OR, declaring "PUMP the AMMO FEED" before throwing the dice, you get double shots but if you misfire you get a -2 modifier on the table

      Thats because of the increased cost (ok ok now moves 6"...) :D and the worsening of los in 2.0

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ThewouldbePharaoh ().

    • ah ok!
      I skipped 7th and 8th edition, played only 5th and about a year in 6th before having a long break... so I missed all that stuff.
      Still the gunnery team needs some reliable firepower for a 150 pts warmachine.
      Maybe its better to modify the fire rate into "choose among shots 2D3 or shots 3D3+D6 or shots 3D3+2D6" more reliable but still possible malfunctions.
    • I play both VS and ID :)
      I was very surprised ID got some kind of weapon team, specially a gatling gun-type one.
      If you compare this one to the VS one, which costs the same, any type of tweaking will result in the modification of the other as well. Specially since now the rats have no real wacky randomess anymore :(

      As far as shots go, the VS one can multiplies their result but has AP1, while this one does not multiply the dice roll but gets AP2 and has a longer range. Furthermore, it has infernal armor + hard target and can shoot even after marching....
      Higher HP, discipline and overall better stats.

      The rotary gun has heavy armor and gets a 4+ aegis (that is ward save, right?)...IF they are within 3” of a non fleeing RaA or VG unit.

      You might see why trying to make this weapon team hurt more might imply a buff on the rotary gun as well. At least i would hope so...i get that rule makers don’t like VS, but it would definitely not go unseen :)
    • I have only had one game yet with ID in 2.0, but I can tell you that the Rocketbattery took its own point back in only 2 rounds of shooting, with an engineer though.. but then it got horrible killed by gnasher wrecking team.
      I don’t get why you guys don’t like the bound daemon, it’s often the mvp in my battles holding very tough unit up for a long time, it’s a very good flank defender. But yeah I would like to see it move and shoot as well, or at least pivot. :)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Son'Gaul ().

    • Son'Gaul wrote:

      I have only had one game yet with ID in 2.0, but I can tell you that the Rocketbattery took its own point back in only 2 rounds of shooting, with an engineer though.. but then it got horrible killed by gnasher wrecking team.
      I don’t get why you guys don’t like the bound daemon, it’s often the mvp in my battles holding very tough unit up for a long time, it’s a very good flank defender. But yeah I would like to see it move and shoot as well, or at least pivot. :)
      are you telking me that in 2 rounds of shooting you kill arround 400 points of orcs and goblins? =O =O =O or 400 plus engineer points?

      What did you kill?
    • Fieres wrote:

      ThewouldbePharaoh wrote:

      It could be a great mount for the engineer too... ;)
      This...!!! So much this !!!

      Irondaemon wrote:

      Edit: Oh, of course. Up the allowance for the Infernal Engine to 0-2, but max one of each sort. Or allow an engineer to ride one.

      Grimbold Blackhammer wrote:

      Feanor83 wrote:

      What do you think about the Infernal Engine as a "Mount" for our Engineer?

      Fluffwise as CTO (Chief Technical Officer :D ) he could pull the heavy guns to the battlefield and after uncoupling he has enough pace to keep up to supervise the beardlings/autonomous-walking weapon Teams.
      As a sideeffekt BS4 on the pain train would realy help :saint: .
      I suggested that about a year ago. But then someone pointed out a T7 W7 Overlord would be ridiculous :S

      sam585 wrote:

      Lastly I always thoight it would be cool if we could mount an engineer in an infernal engine. Would just be a cool model and unit.
      Welcome to the club. ;)
    • My thoughts on the matter:

      - Rocket Battery: big consensus that it is too expensive. I could understand a push in rules instead of lowering it's cost (MW2, 2D3*3 shoots, +1 AP are some kind of options)

      - Titan Mortar: Our best warmachine, IMHO. If it is needed to become 5-10 points more expensive to push other wm.

      - Weapon team: 10/10 designwise and costwise. 0-4 allowance with each one being 0-2 could be a great improvement for the army. At least being able to field 3 of them if you pick 1 of each.

      - Flamethrower: haven't tested it, but people seems happy.

      - Boltthrower: the same good old fella

      - Bound demon: move and fire could be to much (specially for flamethrower) but at least counting as stationary if he pivots would improve him. Anyway, he is in a good spot

      - Engineer: Boring design and taking % on our barrage section kills him. Being allowed of drawing LoS from him or from wm could be a nice adjustment. Also, giving special benefit to each CoA warmachine will be nice (+1 D6 to rocket battery and discard lowest, partial hit from mortar don't reduce S, Flamethrower don't cap hits at miniatures in the unit come to my mind).

      Cheers.