Sylvan Elf Alternate Hereditary spell poll (Community Feedback)

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  • Snarkhunter wrote:

    landonelf wrote:

    @Snarkhunter any input from your side?
    Causing a unit to count as being in a forest (enemy or friendly) is a versatile and strong effect ... which is why it is a #6 spell in the Paths of Magic. It is okay for a hereditary spell to copy a spell from the Paths (just look at DE / OnG), so no worries about that. But the #6 boosted effect (gaining strider) is meaningless for ALL of our units, so it is fair to consider changing it. Here's some ideas for replacing that, including my comments on how the version above replaces it:
    - [Version listed above] "Have it also remove Strider from enemy units as a basic effect. Boost it to give -1 to strength of enemy unit's attacks or +1 Aegis (max 4+) for friendly units." So now this spell combines two hereditaries (DL + OK) and Druidism #6 (with Strider removal). Not going to be approved. Expect a harsh counterproposal...

    - [My original version] Boost it to "The targeted unit also gains Otherworldly (5+)". So now you won't boost it against enemies, and you aren't trying to remove enemy special rules. Instead, you are gaining 5+ aegis and magical attacks by boosting it on any unit that does not already have a 5+ Aegis and magical attacks (so everything except the forest spirits). Since forest spirits already gain extra benefit from being in a forest (stubborn) ... the idea that elves gain 5+ aegis is nice. Furthermore, some elves also gain stubborn by virtue of being light troops (sentinels, pathfinders, bladedancers). So is it good for elves ... yes. Is it good for forest spirits ... yes. Is it versatile ... very much yes. Does it try to do too much ... getting close, but probably would pass.

    - [Another idea not mentioned] There is no boost. Instead it is replicable. One of the features of the new magic phase is that opponents never have low amounts of dice ... in fact, the minimum is 4 dice while the most common is 5 dice. That means opponents will dispel at least one spell per phase. If a certain spell going off is a pivotal moment in the game ... it will be dispelled. And per the new casting rules, you cannot attempt it again unless it is replicable. You can get around that by casting a similar spell but that would require a master of druidism to take #6. This option allows you to attempt forestation multiple times, while still running shamanism, cosmology, or briar maidens.

    Certainly there are many more ideas. My advice remains: choose something versatile, choose something repeatable, and don't ask for something OP.

    Also my original suggested name "Primeval Echo" is just as good as "Witch Wood" ... don't you agree?
    Go Witch Wood.

    Ciara wrote:

    Witch wood as our hereditary would be imo gamebreaking and pretty good spell. Unless some high casting value will happen.

    Wesser wrote:

    All of those are great (except Mistwalker which I would still never take), although they generally need a nerf. For example Wildwood cold easily just be:

    [?+] {??+} Range 24" Models in the target unit counts as being in a forest. Enemy units have Strider cancelled for the duration

    Witchwood is great because it allows us to play our forest strength even on tables where there is little/none

    Bewilderings Mists is great in that it feels tricksy and requires us to close range

    Innate Witchery is a really elegant solution... even if I wold ALWAYS pick twisted effigy

    Alexwellace wrote:

    IHMO Witch Wood does way too many things to be approved they'd never let it pass. Innate Witchery already has semi-precedence in EoS hereditary and might go someway into helping get us back Div in a usable form.

    Iylankano wrote:

    Yes it doesn't come as a surprise that the most powerful spell is the most popular. Witch Wood is about 3 spells rolled into one.

    Nobody else has -1 wound by an enemy unit in all phases (magic, shooting and combat) like Curse of the Mist which would also help protect us from magic missile damage.

    landonelf wrote:

    Alexwellace wrote:

    IHMO Witch Wood does way too many things to be approved they'd never let it pass. Innate Witchery already has semi-precedence in EoS hereditary and might go someway into helping get us back Div in a usable form.
    Its important to remember that this would be a universal spell without replicable. So you would have to choose to use it as an augment or as a hex.
    So you could never get both effects simultaneously.

    So for combat it would boil down to either

    Augment:+1 Aegis save and re-roll ones to wound
    Hex: Lose steadfast and -1 Strength and take DTs if you flee or pursue

    However I agree that it is still a bit OP, since its essentially outright better than the DL hereditary.

    Witch Wood needs to drop the Augment option to have a chance IMHO. The hex itself is more than fine as long as it also effects shooting.

    I agree that basically all the new spells (not just witch wood) are basically OP as written, and would need toning down, or some other limit. And if that's us saying that, you know it's really true!! But that's why discussion is necessary! These are the effects as suggested by the community in the other thread, and no one was suggesting nerfs in there. I feel like my role here is more moderator in a "crowd sourcing" project rather than 'chief nerf giver' (not a job I want). Plus what nerf the community would agree on seems important.

    What this does show though (I think) is the kind of effects that are popular with the SE community.

    Maybe we need to tone down the effects of the most popular ones, and re-poll them?

    Or possibly it could just help to mention in our report (for example "counts as in a forest" effects are really popular when polled) if the hereditary is part of it. @Rafiki it said -1 to wound in the description because that was from an earlier version that was even stronger!

    I really like the idea @Snarkhunter suggested (witch wood / Primeval Echo) but I don't particularly like the boosted effect he suggested ("Otherworldly). That boosted effect replicates something the SE community didn't like about the original Mist Walker (oTherworldly / 5+ save does nothing for a lot of our units) and yet in itself is a powerful effect that might make the spell come across OP to someone outside SE.


    Also I'm not convinced just the strongest spell gets the most votes. I think Curse of the Mist for example would be a very strong effect (-1 to wound is strong, but +1 to be wounded would spell death to almost anything coming before our shooting phase I think). And that spell has consistently trailed.

    @Snarkhunter what would you think of the idea of just "cancels enemy strider" as the boosted effect of Witch Wood (we could also poll the name btw, I just think SE are into being witchy right now lol). I like that that would make it the evil twin of the Druidism 6 spell. It's stronger, but druidism also has a strong attribute. Also, I don't think there is any need for replicatable on it, since you can essentially get that by taking the druidism spell too (might help druidism stand up to cosmology tbh, and help buffer the nerf tree wizards got).

    Data Analysis

  • Agree with hachi that the curse is much less an all effect crammed into one spell and perhaps more balance while still having tremendous usability! The clear Winner in my mind.

    But if we are going further with another forest effect spell then i need to mention this. THe added effect of the hex to make em in a forest and get -1 to strenght is kinda counterintiutive to me. It is best against a cheap block of steadfast units where the strenght seems worthless. Where we need the most help against other elites(where it does help somewhat) and high toughness.
  • So, to focus:

    Options for toning down (by far the most popular spell suggestion right now) Witch Wood:

    a) Remove "cancel enemy strider". replace boosted effect with "grants friendly units Otherworldy (5+)

    b) Make basic effect just "counts as in Forest". Make boosted effect "cancels enemy strider"

    Please suggests others in similarly concise format!

    Data Analysis

  • Otherworldy would give our squishy guys 5+ Aegis save.

    I admit its not the ideal counter for magic missiles/shooting, but we probably shouldnt overly attune our racial spell to magic missile defense, since many armies wont have damaging magic at all.

    Magical defense may be something better suited for a "forest follows/forest walker" update later down the line. Perhaps MR1 while in a forest.
  • That leave that same argument that they just target someone else when you buff one unit. Would be better to debuff/hex an enemy unit, or that was the gist of it before the poll :) So for magic missile/ranged defense it is not usable, but becomes and combat buff instead where we get no help against targets we cant hurt but gain some tankyness in form of saves that dont benefit our grinders/trees. For option a that is.
  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    So, to focus:

    Options for toning down (by far the most popular spell suggestion right now) Witch Wood:

    a) Remove "cancel enemy strider". replace boosted effect with "grants friendly units Otherworldy (5+)

    b) Make basic effect just "counts as in Forest". Make boosted effect "cancels enemy strider"

    Please suggests others in similarly concise format!

    landonelf wrote:

    Otherworldy would give our squishy guys 5+ Aegis save.

    ...
    otherwordly 5+ is not better than aegis 5+ of the current spell.

    We need aegis (+2, max 4+) or aegis (+1, max 4+) to make it work on forest spirits.

    The Strider thing is highly situational so IMO thats useless complexity that needs to be removed.
    RT wont approve 4 effects in one spell. Even 3 can be too much.
    We experienced this when our initial treesinging should have movement+damage+hex and was disapproved even though the hex effect was just on top for the boosted version.

    Quick Starter Team

    Playtester


  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    Adalidsilvano wrote:

    Can we please vote for several options?

    I love every option except from the movement spell, and I think it will be a more reliable survey if we have the option to express it.
    One vote, one winner (and this is my first poll, I haven't figured out how to edit it - I already stuffed it up and deleted it once! ;) )
    I think you'll make do :)
    2 or 3 votes would have been better IMO.
    We can still change it but I'm not sure what happens to the done votes.

    Edit: I copied the poll in the internal forum and was able to adjust it without any data being lost.

    Quick Starter Team

    Playtester


  • I'm still not sold on Witch Wood, for using it at the maximum effectiveness you need to put one of your unit in danger (e.g. a charge on the flank/front of a unit you can't break in one turn), then you cast it and if the charged unit has any meaningful value the spell will be dispelled, then you just wasted a unit unless you were able to set up some nice combocharge, but a that point you didn't need the spell.

    Maybe you can use it as a nice mind trick for dominating one magic phase, but you still need to sacrifice one of your unit for using this trick, the only beneficial situation i can see is when you fail a frenzy test with the wild huntsmen, at that point you have nothing to lose at trying it.

    The defensive side (especially with otherwordly(5+)) is much more appealing with our light troops that can somehow fight, but still doesn't convince me over a thing like innate withcery that can grant me twisted effigy, with a spell like that i can still somehow dictate the magic phase without putting any unit in danger, also is quite likely to be accepted and would remove the shadowpath and veilborn abominations.
  • Neither am I (sold on Witch Wood). If we want something good, we must break that boring streamlining of rules. Yes, it makes game easier and can be balanced easier, but also it makes it boring. I’d be sold on something like “for every hit against the unit, on 5+ ignore that hit”.

    But, when it’s forbidden to break that streamlining rush, I’m with mr. @DJWoodelf on this and bonus to aegis. Otherworldly is cool and fluffwise I love it, but if we continue to work only on elf part of the army we could end up on elves only army. Or - God forbid - something like tree spirits only army (hmm, where did I see that before, I think it must rhyme with james bunnyhop).