Distributing Hits

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  • Distributing Hits

    Hi all, I cannot find a description of what it means to "distribute hits". I mean, I perfectly know what it means and how it worked previously but I cannot find anymore any reference to the equity in distribution.

    Furthermore at page 65 the rules say that attacks are distributed towards R&F models. At page 75 Command Groups are defined to be R&F model although Champions have their how Health Pool (another concept for which I cannot find a rigorous definition, by the way...). Thus the conclusion seem to be that hits that are "distributed" (i.e. usually ranged attacks and some special attack) can be allocated on the Champion (although I cannot find where is clearified which player effectively decides who is hit).

    Can anyone point out the fallacies in my reasoning (maybe also citing the rules and the pages)?

    Thanks a lot!
  • XIV.2 Distribute Hits

    it says to go XX.2 “Characters”
    When Characters are joined to units, how hits are distributed may change, as described in section XX.2 “Characters ”, page 82
    There you should find your answer I think, you have : "Distributing Hits at Combined Units" p84



    Champion cannot be killed like that (or it is the last model of the unit) :
    Champions are however not easily replaced and can be specifically targeted in some situations (e.g. by allocating Close CombatAttacks, attacks that target individual models such as attacks from Focused spells, or attacks that target all models in a unit). If enough Health Points are lost from a unit’s Health Pool to remove all R&F models from the unit as casualties, any remaining Health Points lost are distributed to the Champion, even if it is fighting in a Duel.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Kisscool ().

  • I agree with everything but this.

    Kisscool wrote:


    Champion cannot be killed like that (or it is the last model of the unit) :
    Why should the champions be the last to die (and not the first or the second, for example)?
    Why the Champion (that has its own Health Pool) shouldn't be hit if the unit suffers a number of hits greater than it's dimension?

    Rules say that (ranged) attacks are distributed towards R&F, Champions are R&F thus, by Rules, hits can be distributed on them.

    I admit that it's not specified here who distribute hits but, in analogy with the character sections (and as it was done before, in 1.3), the one who distribute hits should be the shooting player...

    In any case I think that a clarification on this topic could be useful.
  • XIV.2 Distribute Hits
    All attacks that target a unit as a whole (this includes most Ranged Attacks and most Melee Attacks that are not Close Combat Attacks), are (under normal circumstances) considered to only hit R&F models.



    Then it is defined again (defined twice now) that Champion is last to die in case of attacks distributed to R&F :


    R&F models
    R&F models (except Champions) in the same unit share a common Health Pool. If the attack was allocated or
    distributed to a R&F model, the combined R&F Health Pool loses 1 Health Point for each unsaved wound. If the R&F
    models have 1 Health Point each, remove one R&F model for each Health Point lost.
    ...
    If the unit is wiped out, any excess lost Health Points are distributed to the Champion (even if it is fighting in a Duel).
    If there is no Champion, the excess Health Points are ignored.
  • I'm sorry but the part you reported do not say that the Champion is the last to die. They simply say that, although Champions and units have different Health Pools (which means that the Champion can be hit separately), if the units suffers more wounds than the Health Pool of common R&F models then also the Champion dies.
    This does not mean (nor imply) that the Champion has to be the last one.

    For the rest, the Champion is a R&F model so XIV.2 Distribute Hits doesn't say anything about whether or not some attacks can be distributed towards the Champion.

    I repeat that, as for the rules, IMHO now it is even possible to allocate all "distributed hits" on the champion (I'm quite sure it is not what it was meant but the champion is a R&F model, it has its own HP and there is no clear specification on how to distribute hits between R&F models so it can be targeted separately and potentially all hits can be directed to him)
  • Kisscool wrote:

    It is already explained twice that Champions are last to die for attacks not directly allocated to him (difference between allocated and distributed), see the underlined sentences of the rules book in my previous post
    Not a lot of mechanisms are explained twice in the rules book :D
    Not exactly.
    It's not said explicitly anywhere. It can be inferred from the sentence "If the attack was allocated or distributed to a R&F model, the combined R&F Health Pool loses 1 Health Point for each unsaved wound."
    All that I'm asking for (as an Italian national referee) is an explicit specification (maybe in champion's rules), since this is a change (sometimes quite significant) from 1.3

    Then my personal opinion: this choice is not coherent with the way Dangerous Terrains (or Enveloping Embers) are treated. Dangerous Terrains and Enveloping Embers can kill champions inside units while if a unit suffers a number of other ranged attacks greater or equal than its Health Pool the champion cannot be hit. IMHO it should be better to uniform what happens to the champion when all the unit is hit by non-focused ranged attacks.
  • Mazdamundi wrote:

    Kisscool wrote:

    It is already explained twice that Champions are last to die for attacks not directly allocated to him (difference between allocated and distributed), see the underlined sentences of the rules book in my previous post
    Not a lot of mechanisms are explained twice in the rules book :D
    Not exactly.It's not said explicitly anywhere. It can be inferred from the sentence "If the attack was allocated or distributed to a R&F model, the combined R&F Health Pool loses 1 Health Point for each unsaved wound."
    All that I'm asking for (as an Italian national referee) is an explicit specification (maybe in champion's rules), since this is a change (sometimes quite significant) from 1.3

    Then my personal opinion: this choice is not coherent with the way Dangerous Terrains (or Enveloping Embers) are treated. Dangerous Terrains and Enveloping Embers can kill champions inside units while if a unit suffers a number of other ranged attacks greater or equal than its Health Pool the champion cannot be hit. IMHO it should be better to uniform what happens to the champion when all the unit is hit by non-focused ranged attacks.
    It's not a change from 1.3
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  • Mazdamundi wrote:

    Then my personal opinion: this choice is not coherent with the way Dangerous Terrains (or Enveloping Embers) are treated. Dangerous Terrains and Enveloping Embers can kill champions inside units while if a unit suffers a number of other ranged attacks greater or equal than its Health Pool the champion cannot be hit.
    Champion cannot be hit directly, but the champion will be wounded if there are enough wounds from these hits to kill all others R&F models in the unit.
    Champion is not that protected, he is not immune, he is just the last model to die from "distributed" hits. As it was the case in previous versions.
  • The source of this confusion for me is that the word distribute and allocate mean the same thing ("I am going to allocate these five apples between you" means the same things as "I am going to distribute these 5 apples between you")

    You have to make the difference here key, because linguistically you are using 2 words, with the same meaning, for 2 separate meanings - my friends played a game where characters couldn't get hit because you cannot distribute hits to same size characters in RnF bunkers, but it says you can allocate them...

    I would use "Passive Distribution" and "active allocation" on these words to highlight their difference.
    Active allocation means the player determins who gets hit, passive allocation to show that the game mechanics make more decisions for you.

    I'm waiting to see how it looks in 202 to see if it improves.

    Edit:

    Can we also put the rules for Champions and hit pools (XIV.6 P60) in with the champion bullet in XIX.3 p71-72

    Because it really bothers me that key rules for champions in combat are not under the main champion entry in the book. Or at least duplicate it/link it in both places.

    Edit 2:

    Can we update:
    XIII.3.D Allocating AttacksAt each Initiative Step, before any attacks are rolled, Close Combat Attacks must first be allocated towards enemymodels. If a model is in base contact with more than one model, it can choose which model to attack. Attackscan be allocated towards models with different Health Pools, i.e. R&F models, Champions and Characters (seechapter XIV “Attacks.”, page 58.).

    So that there is also a reference/link for Champions?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by kisanis ().

  • I agree with @kisanis. And thinking on what we said a few days ago I have question regarding the distribution of hits: am I wrong or it is possible to hit directly a champion with a ranged attacks when he stands in a unit with a character an less then three other R&F but it isn't possible to hit him if there isn't a character in the unit?
    I mean, since you were right and convinced me of your point a few days ago, we agree that normally a champion cannot be hit by ranged attacks, independently from the number of models in the unit and the number of hits. But, when there is a character in the same unit things are different. The rules say: "if there are less than 4 R&F models in the unit, the player making the attack distributes hits onto R&F models and Characters. All simultaneous hits must be distributed as equally as possible, meaning that no model can take a second hit until all models have taken the a single hit, and so on". Thus the player making the attack in this case can hit the champion (since he is a R&F model) and, furthermore, the champion must be hit if the unit suffers more hits than its models.

    Isn't this a bit illogic?
  • Yes : "The player making the attack distributes hits onto R&F models and Characters"

    You distribute to :
    * R&F
    * and characters


    Note : it is not said to distribute to champion (champion is a R&F model, because he is not a character, see II.2.A)


    And we still have Champions are last R&F model to die if attacks were not directly allocated to him:


    R&F models
    R&F models (except Champions) in the same unit share a common Health Pool. If the attack was allocated or
    distributed to a R&F model, the combined R&F Health Pool loses 1 Health Point for each unsaved wound. If the R&F
    models have 1 Health Point each, remove one R&F model for each Health Point lost.
    ...
    If the unit is wiped out, any excess lost Health Points are distributed to the Champion (even if it is fighting in a Duel).
    If there is no Champion, the excess Health Points are ignored.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Kisscool ().

  • Honestly, you should either just state that a champion count as a character regarding distributing hits, or he is a special R&F that can never die due to distributed hits as long as there is another R&F model in the unit (same rule as musician/banner). Right now they are a semi-state between R&F and characters (regarding distributed hits), and there is no clear answer (in BRB) as which R&F rule they follow and which they do not.I don't want to reopen the discussion above, but I agree that rules are not clear enough as it stand.
  • Alzam wrote:

    you should either just state that a champion count as a character regarding distributing hits, or he is a special R&F that can never die due to distributed hits as long as there is another R&F model in the unit (same rule as musician/banner)


    Well, it is what the rule for R&F models says :

    R&F models
    R&F models (except Champions) in the same unit share a common Health Pool.
    If the attack was allocated or distributed to a R&F model, the combined R&F Health Pool loses 1 Health Point for each unsaved wound.
    f the R&F models have 1 Health Point each, remove one R&F model for each Health Point lost.
    ...
    If the unit is wiped out, any excess lost Health Points are distributed to the Champion (even if it is fighting in a Duel).
    If there is no Champion, the excess Health Points are ignored.




    Imho I dont like saying it is a character for something and not for other thing.
    Some other people will cry because Champion state is complicated : character or not character, make way or not, swirling melee or not, and there are maybe some weird intercations we dont see right now. Dunno
  • Kisscool wrote:

    Yes : "The player making the attack distributes hits onto R&F models and Characters"

    You distribute to :
    * R&F
    * and characters


    Note : it is not said to distribute to champion (champion is a R&F model, because he is not a character, see II.2.A)
    It is said to distribute hits toward R&F models. It refers explicitly to models (not Health Pools). Champion is a R&F model. Thus it is an unquestionably right conclusion that the attacking player can choose to hit the champion model.
    I could agree that that was not the intention, but the wording is wrong and should be changed (maybe referring to the HP instead of the model)



    And we still have Champions are last R&F model to die if attacks were not directly allocated to him:


    R&F models
    R&F models (except Champions) in the same unit share a common Health Pool. If the attack was allocated or
    distributed to a R&F model, the combined R&F Health Pool loses 1 Health Point for each unsaved wound. If the R&F
    models have 1 Health Point each, remove one R&F model for each Health Point lost.
    One could argue that the first period of this part differentiates champions from other R&F and thus what is said after applies differently to champions and other R&F. Furthermore if you don't differentiate between champions and other R&F the subsequent phrase
    "If the attack was allocated or
    distributed to a R&F model, the combined R&F Health Pool loses 1 Health Point for each unsaved wound."
    literally means that when someone allocates a hit toward the champion (that, we recall is a R&F model) also the R&F common Health Pool lose a HP. This is clearly unintended and a better wording could help...



    ...
    If the unit is wiped out, any excess lost Health Points are distributed to the Champion (even if it is fighting in a Duel).
    If there is no Champion, the excess Health Points are ignored.
    This last period, starting with "if", simply adds another way the champion can be killed. If you want to say that this is the only way that a champion can be killed, you should use "only if" instead of "if".


    If the real goal is to make the champion the last to die it would be better to state it directly.

    @fjugin, @Giladis