Warriors of the Dark Gods Army Book Feedback Topic

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    • Warriors of the Dark Gods Army Book Feedback Topic

      Hello everyone

      Now that you have had a month to digest the new background we have a couple of questions for you from the BGT in order to help us improve our work and produce even better materials in the future.


      The four main question groups of interest to us at the moment are the following, but feel free to add anything else that you might find important to say to us. We are aware of the presentation differences so please leave that out of the discussion for now as our primary interest now is on information.


      1) What do you like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as best?

      2) What do you don't like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as worst?

      3) What information you feel is missing from the army book?

      4) What information you feel is unnecessary in the army book?



      Up to this point we have got quite a limited feedback compared to the rules part of the army book therefore I kindly ask you to spread the word and invite others to read through the Warriors of the Dark Gods army book and reach out to us via this topic.


      Giladis

      Background Team

      Rules Team

      Conceptual Design

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- :BH: :DL: :DE: :DH: :EoS: :HE: :ID: :KoE: :OK: :O&G: :SA: :SE_bw: :VS: :UD_bw: :VC: :WDG:
    • While I really would have enjoyed the book if the below suggestions were already included, the background team should be really proud of the work. I was overall very happy with it, big thanks to you all.

      1) What do you like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as best?

      My favourite stories were for the Felldraks and the chariots. Great punchy writing. I also loved the Banners section. Was great to have some bite-sized lore that quickly gave character to the type of people that made up the army. Lastly, the Exalted Herald epic was a little difficult to read but had a great story line.

      2) What do you don't like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as worst?

      Although I don't consider it as very poor, I didn't enjoy the overarching story very much. I felt like it was a fair perspective to show the Warriors from but the need to show each development in the story detracted from the unit entries a bit. The best example of this is for the War Dais. The Dais is very briefly mentioned in the story and could have quite easily been left out.

      Second, while I understand the reasoning behind the non-Warriors perspective for each of the stories, the way they were delivered did get a bit repetitive. Perhaps some more stories like the Herald epic would keep it fresh.

      Last, I felt like the first background in the book being the letter from the main character was a little hard to get into. Maybe even starting with one page for a short, ominous poem or something similar would be a good hook to get the reader into the atmosphere of the world.

      3) What information you feel is missing from the army book?

      Some more brief information about the army would be great (like the Banners section). Perhaps a "notables" section would be a fun way to encourage readers to imagine their general's place in the world. Easy to digest paragraphs along the lines of "So-and-so the Ashentongue scours the deserts between somewhere and elsewhere, with terrible obelisks of bones as the only monuments to her conquests."

      4) What information you feel is unnecessary in the army book?

      I wouldn't remove anything other than what's mentioned above.
      We balance not because we can but because we must
    • Some quick impressions by me:

      Best thing about the new background is the sheer volume of stories and artwork. Also, I am a big fan of the POV-style background instead of the "word of god" external narrator. A nice touch is the introduction of icons for all the dark gods and the re-interpretation of the chaos star, which makes a lot of sense.
      The best piece of background to me is the painting of the paths of ascension:

      I would love to have a piece of background story about the final leap to Exalted Herald, and what it means to the followers of the dark gods.

      I liked the Lord Ilarion story, but I liked even more that it wasn't the only story and had to encompass all the background. When you are forced to pack all 20-odd units into a single storyline, it often feels forced or unrealistic, and it always ends up being too repetitive.
      I especially liked the inside POV stories, it would have been nice to have more of these, lest the whole background of all armies will turn out to be "how humans of the Empire see the world". Hence, I really liked that there were bits and pieces of more "exotic"/unusual places like Tsuandan or ancient Naptesh, very much showing that the entire civilised world feels the sting of chaos, and has done so even in the long gone past.
      So, to sum up, I think the background would have been even better if the Ilarion storyline had been cut and replaced by other perspectives, especially more internal WDG sources. But all in all, it was well done and very interesting to read. Certainly a noticeable improvement over the UD and SE books.

      What I would have liked to see:
      Most pieces of artwork are somewhat repetitive or cliché... big armoured guys posing with huge weapons. While this is fine as it is the most iconic image of the WDG, it would be nice to see some more unusual motives, like a warrior being clad in his Hell-forged armour for the first time, a Fallen becoming a Fallen, an everyday village scene of a barbarian village, a duel between leaders, hunting or herding of beasts (from Chimeras to wretched beasts). In short, anything that couldn't be a straight cover painting for a model unit box. Keep it like 60-80% of battle scenes and iconic classical images, and have the rest more out-of-the-box stuff (both artworks and texts). That would improve the background from being good to being exceptional.


      EDIT: another thing missing is maps! Not all-encompassing world maps of course, but it could have been very much enriching the stories at some points.
      WDG player - "Please, not in the face..."

      GRILLZONE - mein Hobby Blag
    • I recently went through an exercise of determining WDG model availability for the Quickstarter task team. Now, I want you to know that I am not familiar with the old 8th Edition army book, so I relied heavily on the miniatures section and the new WDG fluff book in order to figure out what exactly all the units are supposed to be... and I struggled, a lot. It took me well over a week of lunch hours and the odd evening to sort everything out.

      From what I saw, the art and background in the WDG book is all really high quality. So I'm only going to answer this question:

      3) What information you feel is missing from the army book?

      I get the impression that this book was written mainly for existing players, and not for new players.

      Fluff and pictures are great, but descriptive text is all but absent. Take for example the iconic Exalted Herald. The name itself doesn't offer many clues; after all, these are what heralds are:



      Exalted Herald is mentioned in passing on Page 18 in the Paths of Ascension section, and depicted at the top of the graphic on Page 19 as a red, cloaked dude that's about the same size as the other dudes. But when you want to find out what it is, you comb through the Atharsaga on page 20 and get absolutely no physical description about what one of these things is supposed to look like. Instead you get a story about a guy who turns into one right at the end and... disappears, without getting seen by anybody.

      That's cool, but extremely unhelpful. Frustrating, even, for someone who is looking for that specific information.

      Next you get a bit of poetry in the form of a creation narrative, and then a bit of description about the Wasteland. Now you've read through the entire Exalted Herald section, including three pages of text and a few pictures, and are no closer to knowing what an Exalted Herald is than you were before.

      So then you skip to page 92 and you see that it is a Large Infantry on a 50x50mm base that can pick a couple of special rules from a list. OK, that's at least a little bit helpful. But I want to point out that there is still a significant leap of logic to go from this and the red-cloaked dude on Page 19 to what used to be known as a Daemon Prince.

      Multiply this experience over all of the different unit entries, and you get some idea of what I went through last week.

      Another great example is the Chosen entry on page 28. The story mentions the word Chosen several times as though you already know what that means, without ever describing physical differences from a Warrior. Looking at the Army List in this case doesn't help, because they are both Standard Infantry on a 25x25mm base with the same equipment.

      I don't have any old WHFB Chaos Warriors army books to quote from, but I'm going to quote instead from the old 8th Edition High Elves book for a unit entry that has a similarly unhelpful name, to show you how helpful some descriptive text can be. I present, the Lothern Skycutter, description as found on page 43:

      GW wrote:

      When the swift Hawkships of Lothern slip their moorings, they are accompanied to the open sea by Skycutters - sleek, airborne chariots that rest upon a cushion of magic and are drawn into battle by the Swiftfeather Rocs that nest along the Glittering Coast.

      That's literally the first line of the unit description -- it wasn't hidden somewhere in three pages of fluff. The line tells you exactly what it is and what it looks like. There's even a picture of the thing on the same page, including crew for scale. Of course, if any ambiguity still remains, you can look at the model gallery and find some examples on page 71, complete with all the different options.

      So to summarize, here's what I think is missing if you want this book to be used by new players as a reference for starting a new army:
      • Descriptive text, ideally at the very beginning of each unit entry
      • Depictions of units in full in artwork (i.e. not just the head), with some way to guess scale
      • Pictures of models in a model gallery
      If you're afraid that providing such descriptions or pictures would be too prescriptive towards certain models or manufacturers, then supplementary material may be necessary. Provide one or more examples in the book, and then say something like "More examples can be found on our website!" with a link to galleries that have been tagged with the appropriate unit names.
    • 1) What do you like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as best?
      Description of the 7+1 Gods and the path p.8 to 18, with graph of ascension p.18 being the most useful.
      Recap of Gods' names, usual colors, symbols is very welcome with the Banners p.82.
      The storyline was superb, well done.

      2) What do you don't like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as worst?
      I did not get it immediately that Feldrak = Fallen Dragon. The story of the dragon p.74 is titled as if it was only about a Dragon, and not about how a Dragon becomes a Fledrak Ancestor.
      The order of presentation of the units is not always intuitive, with the Dais, a mount, presented between Giant and Dragon.

      3) What information you feel is missing from the army book?
      Map of where the WDG are strong.
      Bottom of p.18, the seven images are not clearly associated to 7 Gods.

      4) What information you feel is unnecessary in the army book?
      RED BLOSSOMS OF ITAR.

      Social Media Team

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      - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
    • Want to start by saying, I thought the book was a phenomenal product in pretty much every way, great artwork and great background. My thoughts below:

      1) What do you like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as best?

      I liked the mix of the overarching story line and the isolated stories of varying forms (epic myth style, histories, etc).

      The art was really great, though I did like the suggestion earlier about having more 'behind the scenes' images, like a warrior being fitted with this hell forged plate for the first time.

      2) What do you don't like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as worst?

      Nothing really, I liked it all.

      3) What information you feel is missing from the army book?

      I understand the concept of creating a world without a lot of constraints, but some sort of 'special character' feel would add some depth. Like maybe there could be a lord of each gods host that is named.

      4) What information you feel is unnecessary in the army?

      It's no secret I've been frustrated with the drip feed approach to fluff. This book delivered on a substantial quantity...for the WotDG. I don't get why the WotDG chariot has more fluff at this point than the entire SA civilization.

      I would highly recommend giving some better info across all armies before overdelivering on just one or two.

      To close, phenomenal amazing job. I think this book is as good as any GW product. You should be proud.

      -Vesp
    • I know this is quite rude and I apologise for it but...

      The book is just very bland. Completely lacking in "wow" factor.
      To put it simply, Reading the book did not make me want to start a Warriors army. Which is what it should be doing.

      I did not feel like I got enough of a view into what the Warrior's society is like, what the Believe or how they do so. They seem intensely selfish and nihilistic, craving only power, and frankly rather one-dimensional and boring.

      I feel like we did not get enough on the 8 dieties of Chaos. They did not stand out much from each other and I do not feel like there is much that wouldmake me choose an army dedicated to one over Another. We did not get much of feel of how they feel about each others either, are they rivals? Lovers? Allies? Enemies? I have no idea.
      Nor really how their followers interact other than it being rare for all of them to be present in one place at once, ut why is that rare? I have no idea. It seem common enough to have followers of Three of four present but not all 7. Why?

      How do they interact with Father Chaos? One can follow him directly but why, and how does it differ from following on of the Christian Sins? Is it harder? I presume so, but I have no idea?
      ne can apparently follow Father Chaos after having been rejected by one of the Seven. Again, why? Why not just choose Another of the Seven?
      Who is Father Chaos and what virtues does he espouse, what does his followers Believe, what does he Believe? Again, no idea.
      The most important being in the book, is a blank.

      That actually kinda goes for all of them.

      The gods themselves seem lacking in personality, being more of a impersonal power than a actual being.


      It was nice to see something original, that wasn't just a reskin of the GW material the way SE and UD books were. It just wasn't very good or grippping original work.

      So the biggest failing of the book is this; Reading the Chaos Warriors made me plan a small force of Chaos Warriros to ally with my Beastmen. Reading the Bretonia book made me abandon my plans for a silly Monty Python-themed army and actualy want to make the army justice with a serious one. Reading the Warriors of the Dark Gods didn't make me want to make a Warriors army, not one using the actual background as a basis for it.

      Sorry, long and rambling. Gonna stop now
      I haz a blog! the-ninth-age.com/blog/index.p…-the-moment-aslo-batreps/.

      Mostly KoE and ID stuff. Now also some Void
    • Petterwass wrote:

      The gods themselves seem lacking in personality, being more of a impersonal power than a actual being.
      This is pretty important for me too.

      Krokz (IIRC) has mentioned some lore excerpts over on the WDG AB discussion thread that gave some life to the gods. I assume Krokz got the information from the background team in private but I can't be sure if it's accurate or not ofc.
      He mentioned that the Dark Gods offer mortals a slim chance at immortality at the cost of their soul. The gods have schemes in the mortal plane that they need mortals to help them fulfill.

      The reason I'm mentioning this now is because that sounds super cool but isn't mentioned in the AB. I know you can't fit everything in the AB (hence why other companies publish novels as well) but we only really have the AB and the wiki to convey these themes.'

      Edit: To clarify, I did spend a few hundred dollars on WDG models after reading the background though so I would still call it a success.
      We balance not because we can but because we must
    • Eilief wrote:


      The reason I'm mentioning this now is because that sounds super cool but isn't mentioned in the AB. I know you can't fit everything in the AB (hence why other companies publish novels as well) but we only really have the AB and the wiki to convey these themes.
      And if it isn't mentioned in the AB, then that gives the message that it is not important information and frankly, might as well not exist.
      As I often do when someone tried to pull the "sekrit fluff" card (which you are not doing, don't get me wrong!); unpublished fluff is worthless to the players.
      I haz a blog! the-ninth-age.com/blog/index.p…-the-moment-aslo-batreps/.

      Mostly KoE and ID stuff. Now also some Void
    • 1) What do you like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as best?
      I really appreciate the work of both writers and artists. As a game master in WH Fantasy Roleplay - i could say that the world is already worthy of exploring further. Everything in this book is already better than "official fan fiction" from AOS. I really like the moment about only chosen and above can have favors of the gods. For no one is preventing you to dedicate yourself to specific gods, but dedication alone is not enough to receive something worthy in return - you need to prove yourself worthy. In comparison to old world - you cant just have a mark for free here.
      And this thing is just fantastic, i wish more of this sort of art to be present.


      2) What do you don't like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as worst?
      Visuals - page 45. The armor seems little bit off here. First association closer to WH40k than to fantasy. It is only my opinion. Looks like it is platoon helmet and armored vest than remnants of medieval armor.

      3) What information you feel is missing from the army book?
      Lore-wise - need more information about ascension to exalted herald.
      Slightly more information about Path of exiled and ways person could improve his/her situation before becoming irredeemable.

      4) What information you feel is unnecessary in the army book?
      Personally i want more information about this new thing - Father Chaos. For in the old world the idea of chaos undivided was strangled to death by developers without necessary improvements. This in my opinion can really differentiate this new world from the another one that is dead right now.
      And may be it is just too much about one character Lord Ilarion
      DH - main
      WODG - secondary
      OK - passion project for the future

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Happy Aspid: Forgot to mention the specific work of art i really like. Forgot to mention my thoughts about Father Chaos ().

    • 1)What do you like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visualswould you mark as best?
      I think that the work put into the background is great. I really like the way narratives create the feel of the army, but also give some concrete information about the army/units/background.

      Ofcourse the depiction of the paths to ascensions has to be mentioned. I think it is an original and well done piece, making the paths the warriors travel really tangible. Great!

      I also like the story describing the chosen. With that I specifically mean the mention of a saurian warrior. I really like that other species than humans could potentially also become"warriors of the dark gods".
      For me this gives an infinite range of possibilities for converting my armies and creating the background for that army.

      2) What do you don'tlike about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would youmark as worst?
      I find it hard to see things that I don’t like. I guess a downside to the colourful narative-style background is that all of these narratives are “examples” of the subjects of these narratives. There is some concrete information given, but if one would not like the story, they wouldn’t have any fluff to get back to.
      (Personally I do like the narrative part, but I can imagine people missing some information in them).

      3)What information you feel is missing from the army book?
      I think that the specific gods could have been adressed a bit more. I would say we’ve gotten the feel, but personally I would like some more concrete information spanning more than one event.
      On one hand we now have a lot of freedom for creating backround for our own armies, but for the sake of fluff I’d like reading more about the different gods.

      4)What information you feel is unnecessary in the army book?
      Not any.
    • 1) What do you like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as best?

      I like the feldrakes. They have completely new design, purpose, some mysterious background. Maybe their attachment is not very strong to the Dark Gods themselves but they are believable creation. Good job here!

      I also like the image of barbarians form all around the world worshiping gods under different names, often along with some local deities. Very fitting and really good story about them, especially the piece 'The Tools of the Trade'.

      2) What do you don't like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as worst?

      The warriors themselves are weakest part. They do not form a believable force. Their ultimate goal, the Ascension, makes them hardly interested in mundane affairs. They do not fight for power, for money, for conquest... those are only tools for them. For outsiders they are like lunatics with no purpose, self destructive and unruly. Perhaps ascension philosophy is too strongly enforced in the background. Perhaps those who talk in the name of warriors are all too clever, farsighted and enlighted. All followers of dark gods are like fanatical warrior-monks merging philosophy and violence. Does not fit Dark Gods who answer most basic human instincts. Vast majority of their followers should never think of ascension happily enjoying spoils of war and good company. All their purpose should be power, money and conquest...

      Chaos is another weak spot. That supposed chaos enforces very formalized path to ascension. It enforces order among its servants, punishing those who do not follow the rules. Not very chaotic I would say. Chaos looks like a clumsy patch to make a WoDG army possible at all, without guiding hand of chaos it followers would happily slaughter each other until none was left.

      3) What information you feel is missing from the army book?

      It seems there is some additional layer. There is an organization that helps outcasts become warriors, guides chiefs in their path, spreads corruption in civilized areas. There is someone who runs the cult, keeps the knowledge, teaches the rituals. But there is no information about the cult itself... and the cult seems the real force behind the warriors. Will be more shown in DL book?

      4) What information you feel is unnecessary in the army book?
      Too much philosophy.
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    • 1) What do you like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as best?

      Absolutely gorgeous book, props to every artist/writer involved in it. Really loved that it humanizes the WoDG, we understand their goal, their motivation, they are not simply a boring empire of Evil, they are more like a cult trying to achieve greatness and Ascension. They just have other beliefs and goals than other mortals and use strength to achieve them. If I were born in that universe, it would be very tempting to join them to gain strength, glory and immortality hehe.

      2) What do you don't like about the new background? What elements/ideas/themes/visuals would you mark as worst?

      I don't like there are flying wizards on discs, it feels too close from an iconic entry of another property, it could have been replaced by something else.

      3) What information you feel is missing from the army book?

      Even though a lot of the stories where hinting at this, I would have loved an in-depth story about the recruitment method using the temptation of the seven sins as a weapon of mass recruitment, exploiting human inherent weaknesses, and a group of zealots trying by all means to prevent this recruitment. This could have been an epic story, imagine an entire village being corrupted and deserted.

      4) What information you feel is unnecessary in the army book?

      Too many letters to "Your Excellency", it would have been nice to have an answer for once, for example telling him to stop bothering him with details about his ex-wife and ordering him to take her life if he doesn't want to be arrested for treason.

      In my opinion every bit of fluff is useful to flesh out the universe, so nothing unnecessary.
    • I have to agree about Ozariig's comment about the Exalted Herald. A line or two about them being refashioned into a shape more pleasing to them or their patron deity would have been very helpful to set up some needed flavour to them. Also, if I'm not putting my own biases into the fluff for the unit, you could play up the similarity they share with biblical angels as awesome (in the proper usage of the word) and utterly alien messengers of divine will. Perhaps add a short story in which a Chosen Lord is visited by an Exalted Herald in a can't-really-tell-if-it's-a-dream-or-not sequence.

      The same critique is true for the Chosen unit as Ozariig pointed out. It would be greatly helped to know exactly what distinguish a Chosen from the more common Warrior. Is it just a question of experience and prowess and possible wargear or is the defining feature(s) some sort of divine stamp of approval? If a Chosen and a Warrior stood side by side, how would I be able to identify which one is which?
    • Eilief wrote:

      Some more brief information about the army would be great (like the Banners section). Perhaps a "notables" section would be a fun way to encourage readers to imagine their general's place in the world. Easy to digest paragraphs along the lines of "So-and-so the Ashentongue scours the deserts between somewhere and elsewhere, with terrible obelisks of bones as the only monuments to her conquests."That's literally the first line of the unit description -- it wasn't hidden somewhere in three pages of fluff. The line tells you exactly what it is and what it looks like.

      Natasake wrote:

      I would prefer a style which would remind me less of a diary.

      Petterwass wrote:

      We did not get much of feel of how they feel about each others either, are they rivals? Lovers? Allies? Enemies? I have no idea.


      MicWobits wrote:

      3) this is where it is subjective, but two things I feel missing are the purely descriptive passages. I feel like a lot of information has been given in the discussion pages, like the gods fight with the souls of the followers. Love that idea, but can’t really be done justice by hearsay. Just like the hell-forged armour. Yes it’s cool to know that they’ve taken some metal. But can you give me a paragraph or two about why it’s hellforged? Maybe who is working the forges in hell, how is it bound to them, etc.


      For me it's this ^

      I think the fluff improved much. But to me an army book should consist of much more then just narratives as texts. There should be more factional and info-rich texts as a main body. An army book should provide the basic faction info for new and old players to build their own stories and adventures on! And drip feeding them info through narrative reports is torture imo.
      Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Pellegrim ().