The Hotfix- My view

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

  • The Hotfix- My view

    Hello my fellow Princes and Queens,

    The day has arrived when the hotfix has been released, and now I can share some details which were not appropriate to share before.

    If you allow me, I will try to follow some structure to expose my thoughts together in an ordered manner

    Summary:
    I feel the size of the nerfs to the army to be disproportionate, building nerfs on top of nerfs, with meaningless buffs being applied hoping to improve the community perception.

    Worse of all, all the HbE TT wanted to achieve with our banners for promoting internal balance and multiple infantry blocks has been seriously harmed without allowing the opportunity to test it properly.

    Personally, Ihave best wishes for the success to the T9A as I have many staff members that I value highly. However, for me to be able to enjoy my work as volunteer, I need to believe in the way things are done. And I lost this belief during the hotfix, for many reasons I have explained previously. It does not mean I may not gain the trust again, but some key structural things would need to change for that to happen.

    So, let’s go to the actual changes:

    Nerfs:
    Let’s have a look at the long list of nerfs:
    • Hereditary spell has been triple nerfed: 2 design changes + casting value increased (11!!)
    • All our banners have been hit: Becalming out of core, Navigators becomes 0-1 (just because) and Ryma banner is run down by the nerf-train
    • High Warden loses divine attacks, due to strong combination with Spear of Blazing Dawn but doesn’t see equivalent doscount in price
    • 8 out of 15 magic enchantments are nerfed. Yes, above 50% of our army enchantments where deemed critically urgent to be nerfed.
    • 0 out of 15 magic enchantments are buffed. Yes, none was critical to buff. Worth of remark that BLT didn’t feel Nova Lance required a price discount after Ryma banner does no longer affect Characters. Be my guest
    • Fire phoenix sees an increase of 30pts
    • Sloops see an increase of 20pts



    If you want to know more about how this was reached, about the discussions that happened, and about what it could have been and what it is, continue reading below:

    Display Spoiler


    Hereditary spell:
    Display Spoiler

    RT presented a number of proposed an initial set of design-nerfs to the Hereditary spell. These included suggestions like single token for infantry, not affecting combat score and not applicable for characters and Gigantic.

    The ADT and ACS advised against and instead proposed the design updates that you see in this update. RT listened to the feedback, understood the points being raised, and accepted the proposal.

    The ADT and ACS team felt satisfied with the end result as it preserved the nature of the spell and it addressed the highest powerlevel concerns (apply before special saves).

    The concern was, though, how strongly would it affect the viability of the spell to lose both 1 token and have the becalming banner out of core.

    Then BLT assigned a casting value... of 11!!

    In my opinion this was an unnecessary fourth nerf and it perfectly showcases the nerf-hammer nature that causes so much disgust.

    In my opinion the spell should have been set at maximum 9+ casting value to allow reliable 3dice casting rather than pushing it to 4-dice territory. 11+ is a very serious and unnecessary nerf which was received badly by ADT and ACS


    Navigators Banner:
    Display Spoiler

    RT proposed 0-3 and recommendation from ACS and ADT team was not to implement such change. It was felt an important identity trait given in 2.0 to allow multiple infantry units playstyle and suited to complement multiple core units.

    RT accepted the ADT & ACS suggestion in first instance. BLT then changed the 0-3 to 0-1 and RT accepted the change.

    In my opinion an unreasonable restriction to playstyles for something that hasn’t shown any evidence of being harmful for external balance and not fixable through points. Not something to shut down now, which will not
    be changed in May

    The dreaded “better safe than sorry” approach prevailed. Multiple navigators are gone. Forever.


    Becalming banner:
    Display Spoiler

    RT recommendation was to move out of core.

    ACS and ADT argued that moving it out of core could lead to further promoting avoidance BSBs or QG units, as elite infantry would not take it. This banner was supposed to showcase HbE strength in magic and access to it in core was a way to represent this.

    Aside of those considerations, ACS and ADT agreef that while not popular, this was something that while undesired, it would be an acceptable loss


    Ryma banner:
    Display Spoiler

    The ADT and the ACS team did not receive much guidance on what the issue was with the banner. At some point it seemed the only required change would be to make it R&F only and keep the rest the same.

    ADT and ACS then summoned entire BLT to gather their opinions on some of the community proposals to tone down the banner. The majority of BLT feedback was that Swiftstride on infantry was the larger concern. There was also a strong general opinion to make it 0-1.

    Based on this, the proposal of ADT and ACS team was to make the banner 0-3 Devastating charge (+1 advance, +1S, +1AP), which seemed to address the largest concerns (and got some individual indications from BLT that this was more acceptable). ACS explained the bonus to charge was important part to make it attractive for infantry; also that the +1 Advance could further promote the use of cavalry (while being a significant nerf for infantry compared to Swiftstride)

    RT then decided to not follow the ACS + ADT recommendations and went on triple nerfing it harshly, with R&F limitation, loss of Swiftstride, and becoming 0-2.

    It hurts infantry big time. It is a good banner for cavalry, but the R&F then discourages the use on cavalry characters, which is antisynergistic and makes little sense designwise. A design mistake in my opinion.

    The compromise proposal we offered would have been very interesting to playtest, as it would have preserved the spirit of original design while being a significant reduction in powerlevel for infantry; yet still usable by it. It wasn’t permitted and shutting the door prevailed.


    High Warden of the flame:
    Display Spoiler

    Initial suggestion from RT was to make it Halberd only, but were open to other suggestions.

    ADT and ACS argued that, while this could make sense and be fluffy in full book rework, the current book didn’t have the tools to make such character viable if made halberd-only. It would go straight to the shelf.

    Instead it was proposed to lose divine attacks to mitigate combo with spear. It was also proposed that, if required, the Spear of Blazing Dawn could become “always AP4”

    RT evaluated these suggestions as was happy with the proposal to lose divine attacks and keep, for the time being, the SotBD untouched. The ACS team felt satisfied and pleased that the suggestions had been listened to and accepted.

    Then BLT went and priced the honour only 10pts cheaper after having lost Divine attacks. Again, in T9A Balance Trademark style.


    Magic enchantments:
    Display Spoiler

    I have no words to describe how can a hotfix result in >50% of items being nerfed and 0% of magic enchantments buffed

    How can BLT do all the above changes and ignore the Ring of Pearl Throne, the Nova Lance, the Glittering Lacquer is something that, in my opinion, escapes common sense.

    How can BLT increase Book of Meladys price to 100 and keep SA Ancient Plaques at 85pts on a +2 to cast Cuatl is something that again escapes common sense

    Why does BLT consider hotfix critical to neef over 50% of magic items?

    Let’s do a quick review of how HbE magic is hit:
    • 3-nerfs to Hereditary, Becalming out of core, nerf to BoM, nerf to Amethyst, nerf to Cosmology (was best option for HbE), nerf to MoCT price
    Is this what it means to be top5 army in magic. SA didn’t get hit half as hard as you will see.



    Buffs:

    Then BLT agreed to go and apply some (mostly random and meaningless) buffs to the army, hoping that this would improve the public perception of the hotfix. As you will realise when you analyse them, this seems for the HbE army more a bit of a bad joke for the most part of it.

    If you want to read some more detail of what I think of these buffs, continue reading below:
    Display Spoiler

    • Great eagles additional models see a 5pts discount. Can think of a lot better ways to invest the time
    • Fleet officer and Royal Huntsman discount of 10pts. Thank you very much, for sure this was a really critical and acclaimed thing to fix in the “hotfix”. Note the irony in case it has been missed
    • Swordmasters discount of 1pt for additional models. I will not complain but..really? Was this the result of a random dice roll to give a 1pts discount and you rolled the SMs unit?
    • Reaver chariots: -10 & -5pts. Probably the only minimally acceptable buff.
    • Aaand the really acclaimed... Sea Guard. The community must know this: you were not going to touch them. ACS raised such a big fuss about this with arguments that made anyone reading them feel embarrassed. So yes, BLT decided to act... and apply what many could consider to be a bad joke ...
    Now, someone may ask himself:
    • Where are the buffs to Nova Lance and Glittering Lacquer to promote Cavalry and Griffon characters who seem to be largely lacking?
    • Where are the buffs to Ring of Pearl throne for an item that I still haven’t seen in a single army roster?
    • Where are the meaningful buffs to Sea Guard to promote its use and gather sufficient data for May?
    I am still wondering why..

    In my opinion, what BLT did here is unacceptable and shows a lack of willingness to try to fix some of the weaker and most desired options in the book, which would allow more viable options for the army (Nova, Lacquer, etc)



    Conclussion:

    To me, this book is no longer the book that 2.0 HbE book was supposed to be. Despite the Hotfix, the HbE book still keeps a lot of good in it that makes it (imo) better that any previous iteration before other than the released 2.0. On top of that, the pricing updates are disgusting, not only for the nerfs but more importantly for the absence of well needed buffs.

    Some may believe the updates are not that bad, something you are perfectly entitled to think. But to me, after having contributed to it being born and now seeing how such an important part of its flavour and playability is stripped off, it means crossing a red line that I was not willing to cross. It is no longer what it was supposed to be; and what is worse: it lost it for the wrong reasons and at the wrong time.

    Add to that what, in my opinion, was a great mismanagement act and a direction of the project which I can’t simpathise with.

    I have deeply enjoyed representing you, HbE community, for the last year. I leave you in the very capable hands of @PapaG, and @Masamune88 , who deserves every word of credit being given to the 2.0 book (alongside others)

    I will continue to be around and, if needed, supporting them in the shadows whenever they need hel, but no longer as an active staff role.

    It’s been the greatest honour to serve you my Princes and Queens.

    I raise my spear to you once more
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else
    The HbE Hotfix- My view
  • I said it on the General News and Discussion Thread and i repeat it here:

    My fellow Prince and Princess....

    My proposal is the complete refuse of giving "these" people any sort of feedback at all. They showed more than clearly that they value our feedback not the slightest. They insulted us hard, they slaped us in the face. And they dont even take us serious at all.

    Why, i ask you, WHY should WE give THEM anything? THEY are NOT in the position to ask ANYTHING from us anymore!

    THEY have to act first and reach us a hand, not the other way around.

    THEY have to earn our respect and trust back, not US!

    THEY have to proof that they value our oppinion by making the FIRST and SECOND step forward to us!

    If they dont act in any way, then it only proofs my point. So any feedback from us is wasted time right from the begining.

    If you feel the same like i do, say so or like this post or post your oppinion. But dont be silent now.

    Remember...all proof you need these days is your "gut feelings"...;)
  • Well said.

    I am with you 100% with this analysis. It all seems too much too soon for me. I could have accepted these nerfs if the HBE were winning every game and every tournament. Were they?

    I really have a problem with HBE shooting gunline lists and I feel that the HBE project keeps going more that way when they nerf (without much data) all the things that made the other styles more interesting, fun and competative.

    I am not saying that there were some changes that should have been made. But the nerf on top of nerfs on some of these items was just....wow. The way it is, I will never take the hereditary spell.
    Ammertime Podcast Host
    soundcloud.com/ammertime-podcast
    VC von Karlstein Army Blog
    The Von Karlsteins

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Henrypmiller ().

  • Quite a tale of woe - and several points I can but nod to. Yer whining over how SA didnt get treated as harshly seems a bit misplaced though - surely we can agree that it is the qualities of the nerfs that are the issue - not their lack of widespread?

    Skàll
    Why not hold elections for key seats? Oh! And direction of the game - that would also be hella cool :)

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • Herminard wrote:

    Quite a tale of woe - and several points I can but nod to. Yer whining over how SA didnt get treated as harshly seems a bit misplaced though - surely we can agree that it is the qualities of the nerfs that are the issue - not their lack of widespread?

    Skàll
    I think it is a bitter remark pointing to double standards if anything, not a call for nerf of SA.

    That is the crux of the point: the reasonings for nerfs (or lack of thereof) was NOT applied evenly among the books.

    That is the main issue here: double standards.
    Used to be a Vampire ABC member... then an Elf lass bit me... nowadays I have this insatiable craving for cheese, whine and fancy dresses... 8| The Dawn Host of ArchangelusM

    Army Design Team

    Draecarion, may the Lord grant eternal peace to your soul, my Friend!
  • ArchangelusM wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    Quite a tale of woe - and several points I can but nod to. Yer whining over how SA didnt get treated as harshly seems a bit misplaced though - surely we can agree that it is the qualities of the nerfs that are the issue - not their lack of widespread?

    Skàll
    I think it is a bitter remark pointing to double standards if anything, not a call for nerf of SA.
    That is the crux of the point: the reasonings for nerfs (or lack of thereof) was NOT applied evenly among the books.

    That is the main issue here: double standards.

    You see standards? Where? I can at best see some blunt ad hoc work that even I could have done to the same absymal level.
    Why not hold elections for key seats? Oh! And direction of the game - that would also be hella cool :)

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • I want to thank you Calcathin for all your dedication and hard work. I can only imagine at how disappointed you must feel. You and your team did a truly great job for our community.
    I also am shocked and dismayed by what has transpired.
    I don't know what has been hotfixed/wrecked in other army books yet, but I doubt we will see anything like what happened to HBE.
    Unreasonable, shocking and irresponsible are the only descriptions I can come up with for the hatchet job they did to all the teams hard work. I am very sorry for what has transpired , especially for you, my Captain.

    As for me, there is nothing left to that remotely feels like joy. I resign myself and my HBE Armies to our ships, and will sail wherever the good winds will take us. Should we find new uncharted shores or merely wander the oceans under the stars for untold years is yet to be seen.
    Fare-the-well my good Prince, my captain, my friend.
    Failure is not an option.
  • Herminard wrote:

    Quite a tale of woe - and several points I can but nod to. Yer whining over how SA didnt get treated as harshly seems a bit misplaced though - surely we can agree that it is the qualities of the nerfs that are the issue - not their lack of widespread?

    Skàll
    You should know I mean no harm for other armies.

    I fail to comprehend, though, why would someone deem one of the items to need a price increase (HbE) and deem a nearly equal item (SA) to not require it, specially when the later enables an arguably greater total stack of power.

    In the context if everything, this point of BoM is peanuts, but I find it relevant to highlight the level of nerf-scrutiny at which our book has been subject, as opposed to what seems a more relaxed criteria elsewhere.

    In terms of perplexity, I find more relevant the lack of a price reduction on Nova after the R&F nerf to Ryma than the Book of Meladys case. It is the drop after drop which makes it unbearable
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else
    The HbE Hotfix- My view
  • Herminard wrote:

    ArchangelusM wrote:

    That is the crux of the point: the reasonings for nerfs (or lack of thereof) was NOT applied evenly among the books.That is the main issue here: double standards.
    You see standards? Where? I can at best see some blunt ad hoc work that even I could have done to the same absymal level.
    Definitely.

    Really, when I look at how things have turned out I can't but wonder how on earth this has been possible.
    It seems all the teams haven't communicated and everybody was under enormous pressure and just rolled a dice to decide stuff.
    They wanted too much at the same time in far too little time.

    Like the H spell .. 8+ to 11+, -1 token, before special saves .. but Book of Arcane Power in the BRB also got nerfed (now forbidden for Wizard Masters) so nobody can have a +2 to cast anymore. Effecively making the H spell even 12+ in comparison to pre-nerf?!
    And people still insist this was a balanced decision to "fix things"? This is really beyond me ..

    Or the Sea Guard - they lost 1 point. While the BRB has been adjusted so their ultra special "3 row SiER" has been undone by new Volley Fire - everyone 8 wide can now again shoot in 3 rows! Free for all! Still you still pay premium points for their now outdated ability.

    What I just don't understand is why things aren't being fixed and balanced step by step, bit by bit, more evolutionary. Add 5 points here, remove 2 points there. Why does it have to be so extreme?

    Calcathin wrote:

    I fail to comprehend, though, why would someone deem one of the items to need a price increase (HbE) and deem a nearly equal item (SA) to not require it, specially when the later enables an arguably greater total stack of power.
    In defense of the price difference: the SA item can 1) not be used for 1-dice rolls and 2) don't give back fizzled dice if the re-roll proves unsuccesful. My SA mages would gladly pay 15 pts extra for the HbE version.
    This forum need polls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Playing/painting: SA, DE & HbE ..
  • @Stunt Locking the main HbE thread after you just lighten a fire in it?

    C’mon mate, let the people express their feelings instead of going there, throwing a bomb, and then start giving points because people react negatively to your post. It’s not as if that reaction wasn’t expected right?

    Do you really want to be telling the people to go away? Becareful, as you may find no one is coming back after you decide on your own it is time to reopen it..
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else
    The HbE Hotfix- My view
  • weltenspringer wrote:

    Ah they dont get it....

    They closed the General Discussion Thread for 24hrs.

    Funny isnt it? Even more insulting, even more doing harm to the HBE community, even more abuse of power and lack of understanding.


    Its frustrating and irritating at best
    They've alienated, insulted, and now tried to gag the entire HBE community, there's not really any coming back from it at this point.
  • @all_hbe_community_and_anyone_who_wants_to_join: feel free to post here while the main HbE discussion thread is locked.

    But please give not even the slightest reason for this thread to be locked. Personal opinions yes, insults or personal accusations no

    @Mods please abstain yourselves of igniting any fires

    Everyone is welcome here, but only if coming with the right intentions
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else
    The HbE Hotfix- My view
  • Well... what keeps me wondering is why these changes were necessary?

    Sure, I myself had a few ideas of things that had to come up or down for HBE, but nothing that couldnt wait till the dust settled.

    Shouldnt the hotfix just have fixed things that were obvious mistakes like Frenzy (which they did) instead of tinkering odd points here or there? Why attempt a balancing act in the middle of beta testing?