May Update - Knights

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  • May Update - Knights

    Marshals!

    Before reading any further, please make sure you've read the thread on the purpose of these posts (May Update - The Areas We Need to Address).

    This thread is for discussing Knights, which have been highlighted as an area in need of addressing.

    Please use the format below:

    - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?

    Many thanks in advance,

    Andrew and Felix

    Host of Mad Git Radio

    @Scottish9thAge

    LostCause's Backroom at the Lusty Dragon Inn

    Team Scotland Empire of Sonnstahl ETC 2018
    Team Scotland Vice Captain ETC 2019
  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    No real issue for me. Maybe Army book entry clarification of the entry and a cost adjust ?

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    Yes they seems expensive. But maybe i dont play cavalry well.

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    For clarification, i think separate KO for EC would be better. (Maybe KO in special except if there is a KC or something like that)

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    No.
    cas-p.net / graphic & web designer.
    SE - VS - O&G - EoS / 9th age player.
  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?

    Not specific to this unit, but the issue for me is the merge of the knight units, the fullcav was supposed to be one of our playstyles, but we got a cavalry unit removed, so once we have picked our knight blocks, we are forced to go for kotsg or characters in monsters...

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?

    They are actually expensive, a point decrease would be nice and positive

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?

    Give us different knight units, they will still be different than the KoE ones, they have so many special rules they cannot ever be compared lol.

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?

    Thanks for giving us back the GW option, much appreciated and a good show that ACS listen to the community!
  • What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    Kinda two fold:
    1) Very expensive for what they are (especially with the abundance of AP around)
    2) Missing flavour/punch

    That said, the change to KO was a great step in the right direction.

    Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    For EC, yes. For KO..mmm...

    If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?

    Move KO to Special, 0-1 choice unless KC is present. Give option between Bodyguard (KC or General) and Dev Charge +1A.

    Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    Getting there!
    Goblin, Daemon Legions and Warriors of the Dark Gods Player and 9th Age Staffer
    Follow my journey through the world of 9th Age HERE
  • What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    I actually don't thik EC has any problems, glad GW option is back.
    KO are maybe a bit expensive

    Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    Maybe. But I think it's cavalry in general that needs a boost.

    If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?

    Not sure but giving bonus to charge for cavalry (not only strenght) could help. Agility, extra attack, impact hit, maybe stomps .. ?
    Impact would be more logical but 1 impact hit per knight could be too good.

    Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    I actually play a full cavalry list at the moment and I think it works well.
  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?

    It is weak and boring to play because it cannot really do what you ought to think knights does = Glorious charges that hurt the enemy!

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?

    A major point drop would make them competitive, but they would still be boring. I believe a point adjustment is needed for making them worth while, but a point adjustment alone can only do so much.

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?

    The unit lacks punch. And the knight commander lacks a purpose, being outperformed by the Prelate and Marshall. Perhaps give it devastating charge +1 attack when led by a KC, along with a point deduction. Remember, it is up against the KotSG so having one attack is really not worth much.

  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    It is weak and boring to play because it cannot really do what you ought to think knights does = Glorious charges that hurt the enemy!
    They are now better redirecters , hunters...but lack the mobility for that.

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?

    Yes, especially the upgraded Imperial Order Knights (+10 pts. for Str. 4)

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?


    Mayhaps give them weapon master in order to use cav. pick and lance
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    They have a special snow flake over pointing as the most expensive core cavalry in the game.

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    Yes, if split the entries for EC and KO.

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    Add an aura to the knight commander giving Electoral Cavalry Support.

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    The justification I keep hearing bantered about is they have STR 6 AP 3 on the charge with a 1+ save. However, other armies have unusual units in their core with a huge price inflation, such as OK Bruisers(Large Infantry with strength 6 and impact hits), KoE Knights of the Realm(STR 6 AP 3 on the charge with 2+/6++ and rules for greater density + combat res), SA SE WDG with 2 attack STR 4 R 4 infantry in core, UD with scoring chariots in core, BH with ambush in core, etc. None of these units have a substantial, if any, core tax associated with them. Why does EoS Knights?
  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    They don’t pack a punch and don't feel like an elite human unit.

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    No, not with current stat line and rules.

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    Make them expensive, but give them better “elite” stats like 2 attacks

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
  • What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    They are not strong enough while charging and there are too many minatures with high AP

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    No, I think they should hold the point or even make them more expensive.

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    I will give them Off4,S4, and more Agility while charging.

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    I think that the knight comander should have Some sort of orders like the marshall, but just applied to cavalry units.
  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?

    Well, thing is, generally speaking, there are two viable roles for heavy cavalry:

    1. As minimum-size supporting "darts" that score, sweep the board of chaff and mobile but fragile units like skirmishers and light cav, raid the enemy backfield, and do charges of opportunity into flanks of ongoing combats.

    2. As hammer units, usually 10-12 strong at least (or using units with 2 or more rider attacks per model), used in frontal charges at the enemy to wreck face.

    Electoral Cavalry is suited for the first role, having no more offensive power than needed for the job, and an excellent armour save that serves to keep them safe from small arms fire, as well as allows them to jump into combats for support without bleeding much combat score. All in all, their abilities are all well suited for this role. I'd just say that they are a bit overcosted points-wise. If they got a points discount of something like 10% or 15% at most, they'd be in a perfect place imo.

    Knightly Orders, though? They could arguably be used as a more punchy unit for the first role, but that'd much of the time be paying points for largely redundant killing power. That leaves the second role, being the hammer that wrecks face. There, though, there's a massive internal imbalance relative to Knights of the Sun Griffon. Three KotSG with lance and shield cost slightly less than seven KO, and are far better in almost every way.

    I think KO and KotSG should be internally balanced so that both are viable ways of building a hammer unit. Many people have an aesthetic preference for historical-ish horse knights over fantastical monstrous mount knights, the game should cater to as many preferences as it can without incurring a significant cost to other design goals, which I don't think such an internal balancing would do. KO and KotSG hammer units would still have different capabilities. KO would presumably be points-wise better at withstanding damage, while KotSG would be better at grinding. KotSG would also be more situational due to only getting stomps against certain enemies, and counterable by anything with attacks inflicting Multiple Wounds.


    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?

    Yes, it could. Electoral Cavalry should, as I said, get something like a 10% to 15% points cost reduction.

    To resolve the internal balance issue between Knightly Orders and Knights of the Sun Griffon, KO should be points-costed so that for the price of a unit of three KotSG with lance and shield, one would get at least 10 KO with lance and shield. Perhaps as many as 12, even, could be argued to be appropriate.

    To be able to fulfil these two objectives simultaneously, to make our knights balanced points-wise as either support darts or hammer units, additional models would have to be costed less than the cost per model of the minimum unit. That would be entirely appropriate for the same reason why that is the case with most light cavalry units.


    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?

    N/A

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?

    The restriction of needing a Knight Commander to lift the limit on the amount of Knightly Orders is rather redundant. It isn't needed for balance nor to prevent any abuse, dropping it wouldn't invalidate unupgraded Electoral Cavalry (since they'd still be the most points-efficient way to make supporting darts not expected to have to do heavy lifting in combat). The restriction seems to be quite redundant for knight-heavy armies too, since they would likely anyway want to have a mounted general.


    Addendum 25.2.2018: Forgot to say, if the requirement to have a Knight Commander is dropped, Knightly Orders should instead become a separate army book entry, a special unit. That would preempt any possible issue of "core tax" preventing proper internal balancing along the lines I've described in this post. It would also clean up the Electoral Cavalry unit entry, which is rather cluttered at the moment from all the options and how they may or may not apply depending on whether they're upgraded to Knightly Orders. If a Knight Commander is the general of the army, that could make Knightly Orders count as core rather than special, to allow for knight-heavy armies without having to spend a lot of points on either infantry or electoral cavalry.
    Sunna is not with the big battalions, but with the ones whose parts move with the best coordination.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Konrad von Richtmark: typos and unclear bits, and addendum ().

  • What @Konrad von Richtmark said, with a few changes

    - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    Electoral cavalry lacks combat ability. An increase in offence and agi is need. Then the points can stay.

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    Yes. A point decrease could help.

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    electoral cavalry - cheap "crappy" core
    KO - elite knights with probber stats (ag4 please). Should be balanced point for point with Kotsg.

    Kotsg could be streamlined: remove lance as option and give the knight the cavalry hammer +1 st, so that the entire unit strikes with st 5 ap3.


    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    HATRED SHOULD WORK ON MOUNTS TOO!

    Cavalry needs a fix. Cant believe it hasn't changed in 2.0
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    Similar to Highborn Lancers, Heath Riders and Boar Boyz. Electoral cavalry is a Scoring dart and like Lancers they are also heavy chaff. They are pretty great in that role.. assuming that's their intended role

    Knightly orders suffer from not being potent enough on their own (in truth only Vampire/Ryma knights are), and having no true beatstick character to back them up they just are the odd man out in the army.

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    Not really

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    Heavy/Medium cavalry needs a role. Currently the best case scenario for most such units is to be ablative wounds for a scary mounted character.

    EoS knights need exactly the same as Raptor Riders, Barrow Knights and Highborn Lancers for example. Likely something with Impact Hits...

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    This is a core unit (while I don't think non-KoE armies should have Core heavy cavalry) and they are humans. Knightly orders (despite their shortcomings) are probably too elite to be there, so don't go that way
  • What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    I think the only issue with Knights is they don't dish out enough damage. It is really just that they have 1 attack and a weak mount.

    Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    No.

    If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    No changes to Electoral Cavalry.

    Knightly Orders
    Gain Devastating Charge (+1 Attack)
    Knight Commander - As long as no other characters are in the unit, Knightly Orders may make an additional supporting attack.

    Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    They should be shock troops. Right now, they simply don't have enough attacks to do real damage to infantry blocks.
  • What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    They're not very strong offensively.

    Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    No, I'd be happy to pay more though if they improved in other areas.

    If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    I think they need impact hits. Maybe only on knightly orders or maybe when there is a Knight commander in the unit. They just need an option to hit really hard at least once and be more than scoring darts...

    Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    I think it'd be cool if the Knight commander could give some kind of orders to mounted units.
  • What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    Statwise I like both the options. The EC human statlines, weapon options and EoS save are as they should be. And the upgrade to “elite” KO is nice.

    The issue with the unit is that it is a Core option without any direct synergy to our main army mechanism: parent/support/orders.

    Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    No

    If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    I would prefer our cavalry to stay the same (same cost and no stat changes) but benefit from the support/parent rule depending on size.

    5-8 Support
    9+ Parent

    This would allow the synergy that I feel I’m missing when I look at how to use Knights together with our other Core options (and the rest of the Army).

    Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    Allowing the use of support/parent/orders on Knights also strengthens the uniqueness of EoS cavalry and should be fairly easy to argue for fluffwise
  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?
    No synergy with the army, and the Cavalry Pick is not good.

    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    No

    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    As MrB says, make it Parent / Support.

    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?
    The Cavalry Pick is pretty, but it should be able to be enchanted (for KC) and be used, with Master Weapon, immediately after a charge in which the Lance was used.
  • - What do you believe the issue with this unit is?

    1) Lack of internal and external synergy: The amount of rules linked between the Knight Commander and the Knightly Orders is bad designed.

    For example, to become parental they need the KC to be general, which means they'll need a marshal almost inside the unit to benefit from orders, given that our highest range will be 6. This way you need to take a certain expensive build to get the maximum potential from a not so powerful rule, meaning that you pay points for nothing the rest of the time.

    2) Price is expensive for what you get. The 1+ armour is just a way to compensate the "poor" stats they have. Also the amount of points we have to pay for every equipment option is a pain, which make them fail to become either chaff or a full combat block.

    10 Knightly orders with lances, shields, FCG and discipline standard are 585p, which is a joke compared with what we can get for those points.


    - Do you think this could be resolved by a points adjustment?
    [b][/b]
    Points adjustment could be the mandatory first step, but their synergies still have to be redone to make them viable.



    - If not, how would you 'fix' this unit?
    [b][/b]
    1) Knightly orders should be parental by themselves, making them more interesting in mixed armies. The other option could be to give an order to the general KC. I find this second option weaker for we'd be still forced to A+B=C.

    2) Points reduction, the starting cost of the unit should include the lance/shield at least, while the upgrade to KO should be cheaper or include +1I for the actual cost. They're the very best human knights in the Empire and we already know they can reach I4, for KotSG knights have it.

    That means 40p less (with +1I, or 20 extra free points for the upgrade if not) for a unit of 10 fully equiped, which starts to be viable.



    - Do you have any additional comments to do with this unit?

    Whenever I think of EoS armies, I always see at least one big unit of knights in my head. It's a shame we can't play them properly right now, knowing that an easy fix could make them amazing.

    Once fixed, we should start thinking about adding flavor through orders, because why can't we take great weapons on KO units? That rule has no sense and I know lot of player with either converted units or old white wolves units that are now limited to be EC...