Ho, Dwarves! Lend me your ears and minds for a while!

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

  • Ho, Dwarves! Lend me your ears and minds for a while!

    I'll try to keep it to the point! In an effort to be a bit more transparent with what's going on, I thought I'd mention that each ADT team have been given an opportunity to potentially fix a dysfunctional unit in their armybook.Thankfully, Dwarven Holds have no dysfunctional units! There are, however, some things that could need a closer look at.

    While we've chatted a bit internally about it, I'd like to turn to the active forums to see if you don't have any good ideas or thoughts on all this? Our deadline is this Sunday so there's roughly a week for chatting and brewing up a storm.

    We need help focusing down on 1 issue.

    Let me be extremely clear on this though:

    - The changes should be as simple as possible, and for things that do not work properly.

    - Entries that already perform well are not the subject of this 'fix'
    - That means personal fancies are not very important (NO, KROMS! >:( )
    - There are no promises or guarantees a popular submission will be put forth
    - Things that are put forth are not necessarily given the thumbs up

    To give you an idea of the rough scope and target of this process, here are the issues I think are worthy of looking into.

    Engineer
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Only good for Organ Guns, and sometimes Catapults.
    Ideas: Make core Engineer cheaper, and make Warmachine Boost + Hard cover an optional upgrade that ties into Warmachine %. This way an Engineer can be fielded as a cheaper support/utility Rune-Carrier, and he can bring Forge Gun/Wyrmslayer to help shoot while not taking up Warmachine %. In the future, I think it's going to be smarter to make the Warmachine Boost an upgrade for each separate Warmachine, so cost can be tweaked per machine... and we redesign Engineer from ground up to take a more active role in the army, like a Sapper or something. This would lay the groundwork for such a change (Squigkikka favorite idea! Personal bias GO!).


    Flame Cannon
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Rune Crafted upgrade is mandatory, almost.
    Ideas: Make base range 24", Rune Crafted does something else. Maybe +6" Range? A OUO +6" Range? Maybe optional firemode, flat 2d6 s4 hits? Some other cool and fun idea for this?


    Cannon
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Rune Crafted upgrade is useless.
    Ideas: Make Rune Crafted give +1 To Hit enemy Warmachines? What could be a fun "sidegrade" that doesn't increase shooting but still adds to the unit, like the Scouting Ballista? There's so much opportunity for fun ideas!


    Guild-Crafted Handguns
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Restrictions seem overkill and unecessary
    Ideas: Remove 0-1, and limits on Magic Banners/GWs,

    King's Guard
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Bodyguard (King/General) seems counter-intuitive
    Ideas: Give Bodyguard, or swap King for Thane? Squigkikkas note: With the price cut, King's Guard are going to become more popular. This unit doesn't really need help, and it'd be a waste of a design slot imo. Still, it's an issue that has been raised.

    Attack Copter
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Single Attack Copters are almost useless when Bombers are available.
    Ideas: Help set Attack Copters apart a bit. What if instead of the D3 bomb OUO they've got, Attack Copters could get an optinal OUO D3 S4/5 Grind attacks perhaps? Could be interesting... maybe? Not very high prio, just tossing it out there as an idea.



    Do these ideas appeal to any of you? Or did you have others that you think are more pressing, and can be solved by an easy fix or tweak? Get in 'ere and chat!
  • I like your thinking on the Engineer and the cannon! I would vote engineer as it seems to need the most love of all, with cannon being a close #2.

    Ill throw in my idea again for engineers to have the ability to share their own LOS with a WM, thus providing tactical targeting options with an engineer forward observer. Nobody hides from a dwarf gun! Your idea seems a lot more straight forward tho.

    Not sure what is counter intuitive to King's guard giving bodyguard to a King?! Maybe i'm just thick headed but that makes a lot of sense to me.
  • Fluffwise, it makes sense for a King's Guard to give Bodyguard to a King! But the problem has been King/General is a bit redundant, and usually, King's aren't needed in King's Guard units. After all, Kings are usually kitted out to smash faces, and King's Guard is the face-smashiest unit we've got. It becomes a bit overkill and undesirable- a more common combo is Smith + King's Guard for example, or King + Deep Watch, to give a unit that lacks punch a lot more hitting power.

    Like I said, it's not a big deal and I'd not put a design slot on it, but I felt it should still be tossed in there!

    While the RT has asked us to come up with as simple fixes as possible, I'm still a bit of a sucker for creative and fun stuff. @The Beninator, what do you think a fun upgrade for a Rune Crafted Cannon might be? Something that makes it more fun to use, and isn't necessarily just murder for the opponent? Something that might make it more interesting in matchups where there are no Gigantic types?

    Just as an odd thought, what if the Cannon "Rune Crafted" upgrade allowed it to kill the musician in an enemy unit? :x Killed so hard the instrument is shattered! No more swift reforms to so shoot and so on. Just an iddeeaaa....!
  • I want the engineers to be interesting as well.


    Flame Cannon Oil Spew Upgrade? Exchange normal shooting this round to place a puddle of oil and set it on fire, in a way rebirthing the immolation spell? Last one turn. Deters people from moving through. Admittedly, this is close to a "dangerous terrain" type of hex.

    Or give oil to the Attack Copter? Remove the bombing and give it Sweeping Attack (makes enemy unit flammable). Last one turn. Fly over someone to shoot at them with the flame cannon and other flaming balistics. Or fly over someone you expect to charge you, making use of flaming runes and breaths.

    I don't know if I want this, tbh. Just getting the ideas rolling.
    Painting stuff: Sabious' Crafts - Painting, terrain, etc.
    Offsite complete collection sabiousblog.wordpress.com/
  • I approve of all of these (30" fc is my vote), but I think the engineer's ability should change to a purchase that allows him to confer accurate to any unit, not just a war machine
    "An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you *stand, Men of the West!*"

    -Theoden, King of Rohan
  • @Sabious

    I really quite like that oil idea for the Attack Copter, actually. While normally I'd like to leave play centered around Flammable to our Infernal Dwarf cousins (half of their armybook is dedicated to Flammable interactions) I think in this case, it would make sense. You'd have combos with Forge Wardens, Flame Cannons, Warmachines runed up with Flaming, flaming banner, forge guns...

    Not a bad idea at all! But I wonder if it might not also be a bit too good? Some of these units would REALLY pop off if we could apply flammable with a simple fly-over. Maybe the oil is a One Use Only, to temper it a bit? Hmm. HMMM.

    @grungimusic

    That's essentially the Master Engineer once again, though. While he's no longer got Forge Wardens or Guild-Crafted lads to support with Accurate, wouldn't you rather try to pave way for the Engineer to become something more than just a shooty buffer? That effect is so damn tricky to balance because you pretty much always have to price it after the max-sized optimal unit (in this case, maxed out Marksmen or Rangers) anyway.
  • Going a bit of the track here and saying I think Rune of Kinship should be expanded to also grant vanguard. One of the most frustrating parts of listbuilding for me is that when I write vanguarding lists, if I want my characters forward with the bulk of my army, I need to create essentially a deathstar. At deployment. While I can then move the characters off to join other units, it hampers ability to manoeuvre first turn, and means you can't charge (opponent chaffs your unit with the characters, the chaff essentially either blocks it for two turns, or your characters have to stay in there while the unit charges)
    Probably the Least Useless Player in the World - International Herminard Poll 2018
  • Squigkikka wrote:

    @Sabious

    I really quite like that oil idea for the Attack Copter, actually. While normally I'd like to leave play centered around Flammable to our Infernal Dwarf cousins (half of their armybook is dedicated to Flammable interactions) I think in this case, it would make sense. You'd have combos with Forge Wardens, Flame Cannons, Warmachines runed up with Flaming, flaming banner, forge guns...

    Not a bad idea at all! But I wonder if it might not also be a bit too good? Some of these units would REALLY pop off if we could apply flammable with a simple fly-over. Maybe the oil is a One Use Only, to temper it a bit? Hmm. HMMM.

    @grungimusic

    That's essentially the Master Engineer once again, though. While he's no longer got Forge Wardens or Guild-Crafted lads to support with Accurate, wouldn't you rather try to pave way for the Engineer to become something more than just a shooty buffer? That effect is so damn tricky to balance because you pretty much always have to price it after the max-sized optimal unit (in this case, maxed out Marksmen or Rangers) anyway.
    I'm all for some new idea, but I like the opportunities for non-war machine fire support my suggestion offers, particularly in conjunction with the qtf ouo rune.

    As for pricing, presumably the engineer is already priced taking into consideration his considerable potential to buff our organ gun. I'm unclear about how pricing works; would his ability to buff a unit of 20 marksman simply add to the cost of his ability to buff a war machine, or is there some overlap considered? Because he can't do both at the same time.
    "An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you *stand, Men of the West!*"

    -Theoden, King of Rohan

    The post was edited 2 times, last by grungimusic ().

  • Of what you suggested simplist and easiest one would be to 'fix' the Guild Crafted Handguns (Give magic banner and either scrap 0-1 or Great Weapon restriction imo)

    The most 'needed' fix would be to engineer as although its ok it is a bit restrictive/boring but this would probably require a much greater rebuild/rethink - not an easy 'fix' so maybe out of this remit atm?

    Changes to Cannon - i like the upgrade providing counter battery, its a nice idea
    Attack Copter - maybe instead of dropping a bomb, it has a OUO bomb that drops Caltrops say, Sweeping attack that provides target unit with DT2 for next turn only?

    Flame Cannon - problematical for small fix remit as its price is what makes it good/attractive, start adding extra things to it and it could quickly soar in price (for a small fix this is tough to get right first time without overpricing and being stuck with it then being less than effective)

    Kingsguard are fine imo, if the King is with them they will fight to the death, if he is not they have been charged to fight alongside the General/leader of the army. Its fine and works well imo (promotes different lists).

    What i would want is for Greybeards & Warriors to have Min unit size of 15 models. Aesthetically and Thematically this just feels better to me (smaller units can be taken from Marksmen/Miners/Rangers/Seekers so its not as if we are lacking them particularly)

    P.S I am about to start modelling PW warriors for a campaign in the summer so dont go scrapping them as an option :D .
    My attempt at a Hobby Blog Clan Brighthelmstone (attempts at hobby)

    Attempts at Battle Reports Some lists and the mistakes i make
  • having the FC at 30" is to strong

    The way it works now is that our opponents chooses to enter it's range if we get it at 30" we will see a realy steep point increase and I myself is happy with it being a cheap option

    Tho on the enginer if we now are disscussing warmachines buff and we have our own dedicated character to that rolle

    Maby

    Can bee upgraded to Engineer Extrodiner

    +6" FC
    +1hit canon against warmashine
    No half hits on partial hits for grudge thrower (still half S)
    And things like this

    Engineers is more of a gun line choise to begin with so it should be built to favour that play style
  • Talking about engineers, marksmen & artillery_Simple engineers must be cheaper and they ought to get some specialisation (as slayers have):
    • master of handguns (gives guildcrafted weapon/accurate to a single marksmen unit) - so you can get as many guild-marksmen as you got engineers;
    • master of the ballistic (gives his BS to can/cata/og/ballista) - pts for this upgrade count towards EoW;
    • oil's master (gives some bonus to flamecannons & forge wardens).
    Make 24" a mandatory to flamecannons & runecrafted ones will get divine/magic attacks with better AP (some pottent flameable acids).
    Please don't touch our cheap copters!!!

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Porw ().

  • - guild crafted handguns.....remove the Great weapon and banner restriction.
    eaqsy to apply and will propably have no influence of the overall power level.

    - make kings guard getting bodyguard king/thane
    will make kings guard be a more interesting option and allows them to be the bodyguard for a thane BSB too, instead of forcing the player to add a king (unit doesn´t need his damage) or a runi smith general (unit doesn´t need additional AP).


    Reworks on the rune upgrades on warmachines or on the engineer are a lot bigger than the scope of the mentioned changes. And especially changes on the engineer will need some feedback from other armies that use engineers.


    I like the attack copter oil bomb a lot instead of the D3 sweeping it currently has.
    Once in a game the copter may do a sweeping attack that drops oil on the target making it flamable for the rest of the game. (or just one turn, when it should have low power).
  • hi everybody,

    +1 for the engineer. Other possibility, let him only count in character's points.

    For the king's guards, give them bodyguard (characters), will be more useful.

    +1 for the flame cannon. Another option, allow the flamecannon to shoot once a game at longe range with the short range capacity (d3 hp, f5 ...)

    Give the dwarf plate armour "ignore 1 ap" the fact is that there is too much ap in the game, and our army suffer it more than other (imo).

    A lot of thanks to you @Squigkikka for all the work you do !
    _______________________________________
    A raven in the northern mountains
  • I think if copters have had "oil spill" to make things flammable (even as OUO) our fiery "breathen" would surely ay us a visit.

    Not the nice one.

    I must say I like idea of Copters having Sweeping Attack inflicting DT2 for victim unit. It's not "direct" damage (more of CC tool), as your opponent always have a choice to forefit their movement (noone had said that it must be nice choice).

    What if "runed" cannons could destroy heavy cover ? In case of hitting enemy behind heavy cover, heavy cover is destroyed (it does not geneate cover for the rest of the game). If you miss you roll again and on 4+ cover is gone. If cover was due to interfering enemy units then a unit suffer xDx hits with strength X (2-3 ?), you ignore friendly units for the purprose of this rule.


    For flame cannon:

    - option of creating dangerous terrain seems nice

    - continious fire (probably OUO), if a unit which was fired this turn moves it suffers additional xDx hits with strength X (either the flames are stil burning, or flame cannon continues to shoot at them)

    - units hit by rune struck flame cannon have -2 LD for 1 turn (they are bit discouraged by all those flames etc.)
  • Squigkikka wrote:

    I'll try to keep it to the point! In an effort to be a bit more transparent with what's going on, I thought I'd mention that each ADT team have been given an opportunity to potentially fix a dysfunctional unit in their armybook.Thankfully, Dwarven Holds have no dysfunctional units! There are, however, some things that could need a closer look at.

    While we've chatted a bit internally about it, I'd like to turn to the active forums to see if you don't have any good ideas or thoughts on all this? Our deadline is this Sunday so there's roughly a week for chatting and brewing up a storm.

    We need help focusing down on 1 issue.

    Let me be extremely clear on this though:

    - The changes should be as simple as possible, and for things that do not work properly.

    - Entries that already perform well are not the subject of this 'fix'
    - That means personal fancies are not very important (NO, KROMS! >:( )
    - There are no promises or guarantees a popular submission will be put forth
    - Things that are put forth are not necessarily given the thumbs up

    To give you an idea of the rough scope and target of this process, here are the issues I think are worthy of looking into.

    Engineer
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Only good for Organ Guns, and sometimes Catapults.
    Ideas: Make core Engineer cheaper, and make Warmachine Boost + Hard cover an optional upgrade that ties into Warmachine %. This way an Engineer can be fielded as a cheaper support/utility Rune-Carrier, and he can bring Forge Gun/Wyrmslayer to help shoot while not taking up Warmachine %. In the future, I think it's going to be smarter to make the Warmachine Boost an upgrade for each separate Warmachine, so cost can be tweaked per machine... and we redesign Engineer from ground up to take a more active role in the army, like a Sapper or something. This would lay the groundwork for such a change (Squigkikka favorite idea! Personal bias GO!).


    • Make the engineer able to point out units that needs shooting. Grudges works with shooting weapons too (not WM), giving rerolls to hit against Grudged units.
    • Give the engineer ALL ranged weapons (Weapon Master: Ranged) making him more flexible. A gun for every occation.
    • Let him fix/heal WM/HG/Copters from a distance. Fix it! In the shooting phase, the Engineer can target one of the eligeble units with a ranged attack. If the attack hits, it heals d3+1 HP on the unit.
    • Let him build walls on the battlefield. Get to cover! After movement (not march) the engineer can place a wall in base contact with himself. Must be more than 1" away from other units/terrain.


    Flame Cannon
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Rune Crafted upgrade is mandatory, almost.
    Ideas: Make base range 24", Rune Crafted does something else. Maybe +6" Range? A OUO +6" Range? Maybe optional firemode, flat 2d6 s4 hits? Some other cool and fun idea for this?


    • Give the upgrade in the basic WM and give the option of Explode when destroyed! 2d6 st 4/5 ap 1/2 flaming auto hits when the machine dies. An dwarf classic that could fit the volatile nature of the machine.
    • Alternatively, give it Easy to Move. Basically move and fire.
    • Could also give it Blue Flames: increase ap as the flame burns hotter. Ap3?

    Cannon
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Rune Crafted upgrade is useless.
    Ideas: Make Rune Crafted give +1 To Hit enemy Warmachines? What could be a fun "sidegrade" that doesn't increase shooting but still adds to the unit, like the Scouting Ballista? There's so much opportunity for fun ideas!


    • Make it more difficult to fight in CC. Armor plating, giving it as3+ and Shieldwall.
    • Let the engineer ride it! Mount for Engineers, Warplatform, move .. i dont know. Just like the idea of a crazy engineer riding a cannon. Might use it in Thunderdwarfs actually! :)
    • Warning shot, fires a volley that puts the fear of cannons in enemies. Must MISS the unit, unit takes a panic check.
    Guild-Crafted Handguns
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Restrictions seem overkill and unecessary
    Ideas: Remove 0-1, and limits on Magic Banners/GWs,



    This one is easy. Do as you say! ;)


    King's Guard
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Bodyguard (King/General) seems counter-intuitive
    Ideas: Give Bodyguard, or swap King for Thane? Squigkikkas note: With the price cut, King's Guard are going to become more popular. This unit doesn't really need help, and it'd be a waste of a design slot imo. Still, it's an issue that has been raised.




    • Take away bodyguard in all forms and give them Let the Bodies Hit the Floor.. If the KG does more wounds, they are unbreakable in that round.. Looses the ability if a character joins them, as the character gets in the way of them hammering foes into the ground.

    [/spoiler]Attack Copter
    Display Spoiler
    Problem: Single Attack Copters are almost useless when Bombers are available.
    Ideas: Help set Attack Copters apart a bit. What if instead of the D3 bomb OUO they've got, Attack Copters could get an optinal OUO D3 S4/5 Grind attacks perhaps? Could be interesting... maybe? Not very high prio, just tossing it out there as an idea.


    • Let the attack copters ATTACK! Dive Attack. Give them impact hits 2d6 st4 ap2. Cannot fly afterwards (move 3).

    Do these ideas appeal to any of you? Or did you have others that you think are more pressing, and can be solved by an easy fix or tweak? Get in 'ere and chat!
  • Squigkikka wrote:

    Attack Copter
    Problem: Single Attack Copters are almost useless when Bombers are available.
    Ideas: Help set Attack Copters apart a bit. What if instead of the D3 bomb OUO they've got, Attack Copters could get an optional OUO D3 S4/5 Grind attacks perhaps? Could be interesting... maybe? Not very high prio, just tossing it out there as an idea.

    This fix to the copter has my preference. I much prefer it to making units flammable as has been proposed. It's called an attack copter, but it's always just been a copter. This would make it a tool for a support charge or to charge an eagle or something similar. It would be good if the attack copter would prefer to actually attack in cc rather than dance and shoot. Hence, this is my number 1 choice.


    Engineer
    Problem: Only good for Organ Guns, and sometimes Catapults.
    Ideas: Make core Engineer cheaper, and make Warmachine Boost + Hard cover an optional upgrade that ties into Warmachine %. This way an Engineer can be fielded as a cheaper support/utility Rune-Carrier, and he can bring Forge Gun/Wyrmslayer to help shoot while not taking up Warmachine %. In the future, I think it's going to be smarter to make the Warmachine Boost an upgrade for each separate Warmachine, so cost can be tweaked per machine... and we redesign Engineer from ground up to take a more active role in the army, like a Sapper or something. This would lay the groundwork for such a change (Squigkikka favorite idea! Personal bias GO!).


    This would be my second choice. At this moment (for me) he is a bit too expensive to justify bringing him instead of another warmachine. Making only his warmachine boosting ability count towards the warmachine allowance would fix this. Even better would be if the engineer would be cheaper and this would be an upgrade. This would pave the way for a guns blazing cowboyesk engineer in a ranger unit with runes of steadiness and/or mining. Both runes with potential I think, but underused at the moment. Especially now that runes on an engineer eat into the warmachine allowance such a build is unused.

    I think he should in part count towards clans' thunder and in part towards engines of war depending on how you choose to play him if such customization as has been put forward in this idea were to happen.

    The kings guard, flame cannon, cannon and guild crafted handguns issues are all also true, but they are the least dysfunctional of all proposed ideas.
  • For a SIMPLE change my preference is going to the limitation on GCH Marksmens who don't need anymore.

    Copter oil or grinding attacks are very good ideas but require a little more thought than a simple fix

    same as Engineer with good ideas too!

    so my vote:

    #1: GCH Limits
    #2: Engineer
    #3: Attack Copters
    #4: Cannon (+1 hit war machine is really good idea)
    #5: Flame Cannon
    #6: KG
  • Reading through it all I still think the Engineer is most in need of help, although my hype is on all the copters.

    Engineer: None of the ideas really tickle my fancy. The repair thing is a nice touch, but as many suggest the main problem is him limiting war machines by his cost. Any other cool additions are fine by me.

    Copters: I am liking the Attack Copter as a tactical unit more and more. Some mention a close combat boost, but I think that is what the Grudge Buster is for, right? So we have a Buster for the up and close, a bomber for bombing and a utility copter, somehow harassing the enemy. I like the thought of it as a stinger. A wasp or mosquito, not damaging but causing trouble. Whether it is flammable oil, DT caltrops, nets (too gobliny?) I want this. I leave what it is to you. I am guessing doing the Hold Guardians' 3-choice thing for what tool to use might be too much.

    Flame cannon: Just needs that extra range from the beginning, yes. Don't care what else it gets. It works.
    Painting stuff: Sabious' Crafts - Painting, terrain, etc.
    Offsite complete collection sabiousblog.wordpress.com/